Any Yamaha HPDI experts out there? still bogging down

[BTF112989]

I wondered that too.  The service manager finally told me when I called last time that both of their technicians had been at classes that Yamaha was holding for the past week.  So when I called and they told me that the tech was "working on my boat as we speak", he was actually in a class across town.  That pissed me off just slightly.   :evil:

When I talked to the owner, I said that the tech thought it was the ECU, but was unable to source the correct parts for testing because my engine was so old.  The owner said that he knows a lot more than the tech does, and that the tech is "by the book".  He then went on to say he could easily find the parts that they would need to rule some things out and reassured me that he could get it figured out.  I can only hope at this point.

[seabob4]

Ben,
I gotta call bullchit on the owner saying your engine is "old".  An '01 HPDI is NOT old!  Maybe a '92 OX66, but not an '01.  Without looking, I can guaranty you I can go on boats.net and find any part for your motor and not find 1 NLA (no longer available).  So many thousands of these motors were built, and so many thousands still in service, the parts aspect of the business is VERY lucrative for Yamaha.

Must be something about the Tennessee River valley and Yamaha dealers.  There was a guy on Jessie's forum, keywestboats.com, that lives in Chattanooga and received HORRENDOUS service from his Yamaha dealer, so bad that one had to wonder if the techs had any clue as to what was under the cowling.  You gotta figure with the hundreds of thousands of boaters in that area, Yam would have MANY extremely qualified dealerships up and down the river and on the impoundments.  Guess not...

[dburr]

Some folks Bob have learned saying that parts are not available is easier then admitting that they don't have a clue.. That tech needs get a little life learning.... I can still get parts for a 1952 3hp lite twin 'rude offa marineengine.com. Andrew can find just about anything..  I think I might call that motor old..

Hang in there Ben, you have a great motor that is just in a bad spell. When you find the smoking gun all will be well.  The only thing that might be a bummer is if the boys shotgun parts at it and then you will not know exactly what it was.  Hopefully the shop owner will not do that...

[seabob4]

You know, Dave, I'll dig and dig and dig...and when that doesn't turn up anything, I'll call my old buddy Vito (yes, that is his name!) Pauluzzio at Homosassa Marine and he'll find the goddam part!  But to just slough it off and say it's NLA...bud, that just burns me up!

Maggie says I'm tenacious...

[dburr]

Maggie says I'm tenacious...

WHAT?!?!?   YOU ?????   NOOO..........

[BTF112989]

Exactly. 2001 was quite a few years ago, but the technology hasn't been changed significantly. My engine was actually first put into service in 2005 as well and only has 430ish hours on it. That's not very old to me.

And yes, you can find pretty much any part on boats.net. The only ones that are marked obsolete are simple nuts, bolts, screws, etc. You can still buy an ECU for it. I just think the tech was trying to wash his hands of the whole thing. He told me twice that I should just keep running the boat, but he got sick of me when I just kept bringing it back. Maybe this will all get solved now that I raised my voice a little & the owner is involved.

Tennessee used to be all Mercury based on all of the I/O's in bowriders & all of the bass boat guys having Mercury outboards. Mercury still is very popular, but a ton of the bass boats now have VMAX HPDI's on them. It's hard to find a Yamaha dealer around Nashville or Knoxville. There are only 3-4 in the Nashville area & they are all 30-50 miles apart. I find it interesting that there are more Honda dealers available than Yamaha in Knoxville.

I think people are more puzzled by the electronics now, and the fact that one symptom could be caused by 10 different sensors or components. This whole ordeal has made me appreciate the simplicity and durability of my 1957 35hp Johnson, 1956 10hp Johnson, and my 1969 9.5 Johnson. All of which I can find parts for just like your 1952 model.

All I know is that when I get this engine fixed, I'm going to run the hell out of it. Nothing kills an engine faster than letting it sit around. It's amazing home much better they do when you use them often. I'm going to try & do longer river cruises instead of just going 10 minutes across the lake & sitting. When I was down in Bonita Springs, I wanted to make a run up to Cabbage Key/Boca Grande area, but the engine wasn't in top shape back then either. My 28 gallon gas tank really limits my cruising range too.

Thanks for the encouraging thoughts guys!

-Ben

[futch13]

I had a 2000/2001 Z150 kick my a$$ for about 3 months several years ago with a problem like yours.  After checking/rechecking/rechecking voltages, going thru the fuel system, calling the tech tech line, stripping harnesses to ck wire condition, etc etc...the dealer I worked for at the time wouldn't buy a $2000 ECU or $1200 injector driver to swap out, Yamaha finally sent a service rep down to ck it out.  2 weeks later 3-4 wiring harnesses and 2 drivers later the engine was fixed.  Still don't know exactly what fixed it, neither did the rep, but it was fixd.  

Believed one of the wiring harnesses was the culprit but couldn't pinpoint an exact fault. And just to clear up a point about YDS/YDIS, Yamaha's diag program, the only time a code is set is when a sensor is out of specs, will not register a code for most problems encountered on a motor unless it breaks while the computer is hooked up.  Then it is usually NOT the sensor code that was shown but something that effects the system.

About the only way a dealer can swap parts is if he has another motor around that he can borrow parts from.  There are too many different ecu's that are engine specific to stock them all and Yamaha will not take them back once they are open.  In 15 yrs of working on Yamahas, I have found their major electrical components rarely go bad, but the harnesses and sensors are a different story.  The problem now is it will be hard to get a rep to come to the dealership to look at a 12 year old motor.  Not that it is too old, just that it is so far out of warranty.

[BTF112989]

Hey Everybody! Its update time again!  Thanks for all of the support, suggestions, good vibes that are maybe being sent my way!  There haven't really been any breakthroughs, but I figure I would update everyone.

Futch13,
That sounds like what its going to have to come down to with my motor.  

So the boat has been at the dealer since the last time I posted on here.  I haven't seen the boat in several months, but I have been much more persistent in calling the dealership to find out what has been going on.  I find that they tend to forget about you if you don't call to check on your boat's status.  Anyway, the mechanic at the dealership finally lake tested the boat again and experienced for the first time the major problem that the boat has been having!  So he seemed to think it was a bad ECU.  The owner of the dealership called me & said he thought it was an ECU as well.  He had a friend in Louisiana that shipped him a used ECU that he thought would fit.  Ends up, the friend misunderstood him and sent an ECU from a 3.3L HPDI instead of a 2.6L HPDI.  Obviously the ECUs are different, so he called me and said his plan was to search for an ECU on Ebay that was guaranteed to work.  He and the mechanic both said an ECU for a 150, 175, or 200 HPDI would work on my engine.  Which after some research, the engines are all identical in displacement, bore, stroke, exhaust routing, etc.  The only thing that is slightly different are the lower unit gear ratios.  He was saying if we bought an ECU from a 200 HPDI, we would effectively have a 200hp engine(obviously the lower unit gear ratios are different, so it may not be a true 200).  Can anyone confirm or deny this?  

I researched it a little and many sources online said it worked.  The WOT RPMs are supposed to rise by 200-300 after switching a 150 ECU for a 200 ECU because of the extra power with the same old prop on the boat.

I went back and forth between the owner, the mechanic, and my dad.  The tech said 80% of the things he checked were pointing to the ECU, so we decided to pull the trigger on a used 200 HPDI ECU for $350 on Ebay.  I don't have the money for the $11,900 2014 150hp Yamaha 4-stroke they offered me at cost, and at the very least maybe the $350 will give me a boost in horsepower.

So they get the ECU shipped in, install it, and it still has the same problem.  The 200 ECU didn't fix the problem.  However, in the 30 minute time period when the engine runs well, the mechanic took it up to WOT.  Instead of the expected jump from 5400rpm with the old ECU to 5700rpms or so with the 200hp ECU, then engine stayed at 5400rpms and seemed to hesitate some instead.  When the mechanic backed off to 5300rpms, the engine ran alot smoother.  Of course, after all of this the engine backed off to its normal 2800-3000rpm problem again for the rest of the test run.

So after he explained this to me on the phone today, he said that he thinks the problem is fuel related again.  Not electrical like he thought after we ruled out the fuel side of things.

After this he said that he had removed my high pressure fuel pump and sent it down to Flagship in Punta Gorda to get rebuilt already.  He took it off and found two leaks in it.  One in the middle area of the pump, and one in the right side of the pump.  His thought was that maybe air was getting in these areas where a slight amount of fuel was coming out, and causing the symptoms.  The fuel pressure reading on YDS in the pump is still around 750 psi, so its still functioning.  It may just be letting some air in?  Do you guys think this is plausible?

I'm happy that they are finally getting into action and doing things to fix my boat.  I don't know what exactly their plan is for sending the high pressure pump for a $550 rebuild without asking me?  Are they fronting the bill & really trying to help a customer, or am I going to be surprised when I go to pay the final bill when the engine is fixed?

I intend to call back sometime soon & see what the deal is.

What do yall think about all of this?  The ECU was a logical shot in the dark, and I was kind of upset about purchasing the unit and the engine not being fixed.  However if this 200hp rumor is true, its worth the $350 to me in the end.  I'm not sure I agree with going back to the fuel system after the mechanic and I had extensive talks about ruling it out.  I also don't know what the deal is about not consulting the customer about the next major repair unless the dealership is paying for it on their own.  All I know is if I show up to pay the bill and it ends up being $3500+ or something, then all hell is going to break loose inside of me.  Me & my new college graduate salary cannot afford something like that to happen.  That was the whole point in trying to fix this engine instead of buying new.


Thanks for reading my book of a story/letting me vent

Have a good one everybody!

-Ben

[seabob4]

Uh, Ben, not to call bullchit on your dealer, but 5 years ago, for an '08 Suzuki 4S 150, we were paying $7500 at Proline.  Honda?  $7528.  Merc 150 Opti?  $7900.  Unless Yams have gone REALLY up in 5 years...

[BTF112989]

Exactly. Needless to say, even if I was buying a new engine, I wouldn't buy it from there. The original quote I got was $13,400 for a 2014 150 yamaha 4-stroke. $12,900 for the 2013 model. Once I got frustrated on the phone with them, I got offered the $11,900 dealer cost deal. You & I are smart enough to know that dealer cost is lower than the deal I was offered. I've kind of been soured by Yamaha for a little while by this experience anyway. Maybe sometime well in the future I'll own another, but my next engine won't be a yamaha.

[fitz73222]

At the 30,000 foot view, he still doesn't know whats wrong with it but in his defense it sounds like he's bending over backwards to make it right. I doubt he's captured all the time he has in this motor and I'm sure he's tired of dealing with it. I really still believe it's an engine controls issue and not fueling but it certainly isn't my field of expertise. Throwing new parts at the problem may eventually fix it but that may be $3000 from now. It may be time to start looking for another engine, used but still under warranty with a proven track record of reliability. You live in freshwater bassboat country so I have to believe there are used cream puff engines in your neck of the woods.

[futch13]

I agree with Farley to an extent.  Look around for a blown 150-200, see if you can pick it up cheap.  Take the wire harnesses off it and put on yours.  If nothing else, you will have used parts when something else fails, ie. gearcase, tnt unit etc.

[futch13]

Just looked up pricing on an F150LA 2013  MSRP $ 15530.00  Over the counter should be around $ 12500.00  If he was quoting $11900 then that is real close to his cost.  Of course there will be rigging etc. on top.

[BTF112989]

Exactly. The owner of the dealership told the mechanic that he was sick of looking at my boat taking up space in his back lot. He told him to do what it takes to get fixed. It's also helping that they probably have no other business currently. During the summer my boat kept on getting passed over for the easier fixes in the back lot that could make them money.

I'm still thinking it's something lurking deep in the wiring harness that is causing all of these issues. If he wants to take a stab at this pump with their money... Go ahead. However, if I get the bill for it after no one asked me for authorization, then we're going to start having problems.

I'd like to find a nice used engine around here, but no one seems to have a boat that is rigged with a longshaft engine. Everything used around here is short shaft. When I bought this engine, it was one of the three longshaft engines I found in total after asking 16 different dealers in the Nashville area.

It's just frustrating because I have seen several posts online with problems similar to mine & it ended up being some wire with some exposed metal that is grounding out against the lower cowling or not getting a solid connection. Cheap fix, but the means to the end (i.e. Labor cost) is what kills me.

In the meantime, it's December & I enjoy going slower in my Jon boat while this gets resolved.

I think this is having more of an effect on my dad than anyone else. After he winterizes his boat, he had used mine as his winter boat while I was in college. Now he has no winter boat, since he doesn't like fooling with my Jon boat with all of its old engines.

The $12,900 they quoted me on the 2013 model was with me rigging it myself. Still a little rich for me. I have my eye on that new mercury 150 four stroke when the time comes!

Thanks guys!

-Ben

[BTF112989]

Another update!  

So I called today to see what the status of my boat was after the high pressure pump was sent down to Flagship to get rebuilt.  As I suspected, the rebuilt pump did not do anything to fix my problem.  I talked to the owner of the dealership, and he told me that they would not charge me for the ECU or the rebuild of my high pressure pump.  I am very happy about that! However, he basically said that they couldn't do anything else for me without running up additional expense and throwing parts at the problem until it was fixed.  He didn't say my engine was unfixable, but he said it would take about $3000 to figure out what the problem is.  Then he offered me the new Yamaha for $11,900 again.

So now I am at that point!

The point where I have to decide whether to continue throwing money at an engine I bought new(scratch & dent old stock special) for $5500, or to get another engine.  

Either I pull my boat to a more knowledgeable dealership that can possibly figure my problem out and hope that 3 years down the road I don't have a major/expensive problem again(13 year old engine), or I go shopping for a new or used engine.

I don't want to pay for 1/3rd of the cost of a new engine, only to have a major engine problem 18 months down the road again.

Which category would y'all put your money toward?  

If I went new, I would go with the mercury 150 four stroke.  However, I have been looking at many used engines & even at twin 70's and twin 90's.  
 
Does anyone have some leads on reasonably priced used engines out there?

Or new engines at very low prices?

I'm willing to travel for either!

Looking forward to everyone's opinions!

Thanks,
Ben