Cost Estimates from you old pros...

[c master]

Gents -
Like others, I'm particularly enamored with the earlier '70's 22-2's. This very likely means taking on a major / complete restoration, which many of you have done.  

Without 'dropping your shorts', would a few of you be willing to discuss what I should expect for real-life costs for a project like this?  I'm assuming stripping a hull, new floor, new tank, new transom, Awlgrip, wiring, hardware, yada yada yada...

Info about cost for an engine with controls would be helpful but I can figure that part on my own, as well as a trailer.   But with a 200 hp 2-stroke and a tandem trailer, I'm assuming total cost would be around $25 - 30,000, all in?  

So other than the pure satisfaction for those of us who are 'boat " about half the time, my sense is that there's no way to really justify a total renovation from a practical point of view.   It's highly likely that I could find a boat in good/great shape for less money.  But probably not a 22-2.  Right? Wrong?  Thoughts?   Thanks a lot, in advance...

[flounderpounder225]

Gents -
Like others, I'm particularly enamored with the earlier '70's 22-2's. This very likely means taking on a major / complete restoration, which many of you have done.  

Without 'dropping your shorts', would a few of you be willing to discuss what I should expect for real-life costs for a project like this?  I'm assuming stripping a hull, new floor, new tank, new transom, Awlgrip, wiring, hardware, yada yada yada...

Info about cost for an engine with controls would be helpful but I can figure that part on my own, as well as a trailer.   But with a 200 hp 2-stroke and a tandem trailer, I'm assuming total cost would be around $25 - 30,000, all in?  

So other than the pure satisfaction for those of us who are 'boat " about half the time, my sense is that there's no way to really justify a total renovation from a practical point of view.   It's highly likely that I could find a boat in good/great shape for less money.  But probably not a 22-2.  Right? Wrong?  Thoughts?   Thanks a lot, in advance...

I think you answered all your questions right on target, maybe not the bulls-eye, but your on the paper    Thats why the resto, is only done if you love the boat, have the money, and know right up front that you'll never recoup that money in re-sale.  We have seen many guys come on here with classics that they dumped 30K plus into, and now need to sell and want to get 30K back out of it?  Unless its a perfect match between buyer and seller, it ain't gonna happen.

[gran398]

Exactly.

Moneywise it is  a function of where you want to go. Do you want just a basic rebuild? Or do you want a closed transom, all synthetic rebuild materials, porta-bracket, livewells, spotting tower, upper station, custom casting platform, custom guide console, tabs, stern trolling motors, full Furuno electronics, 900 watt stereo, RGB mood-changing love lights etc...the sky is the limit.

Go to Tampa and you'll see 22-2 custom tarpon boats in the 80K range. And they look it too, absolutely beautiful.

To be a little more specific at the low end. You should be able to find a good, experienced professional shop with a good name to do the following for under 10K. Please bear in mind this figure is derived from local estimates.

New AC fir 25 "transom, refurbed stringers (tops cut off, re-foamed with closed cell, new glass tops) AC floors, recored casting deck and hatches, new tank and fill. All decks glassed top and bottom, non-skid floor, gel coat bilge and interior sides. Original console patched and gelled, motor hung and rigged.

Just a very basic quality rebuild based on minimal structural change. Original stringers left intact, no box system. No electrical, no outside gel/Awlgrip, none of the goodies listed above. The estimate of course is just that; problems, stringer delam, etc, etc, equals more time, and as they say, time is money.

edit: Just saw your topic post/request. I'm halfway there on the request qualification.....I'm old

[fitz73222]

Hey fellas,

Coming to you from downtown Shanghai, China. This is always one of my favorite posts. When is the last time we bought a depreciating item and expected it to appreciate in value. There is no doubt that there is a romantic attraction for the early 70`s 22-2. It was the prettiest boat AS they ever made and to this day is a head turner and conversation maker on the water. It is also evidenced by the manufacturers that have popped a mold off of that hull, added a lifting strake, called it breakthrough, classic technology and pinned a $60K price tag for the unrigged hull! When I bought my 73' 22-2 I had my eyes wide open that I would rebuild her someday for an anticipated cost of less than $20K with me doing the rigging. So my house is worth $70K less than it was in 08', My 02' $30K truck is worth maybe $8K today. My advice is don't take your money from 401K to rebuild it or your kids school fund or any other futures obligations. If you have gained money the old fashioned way than go with your heart and do what you love. I'm 51 and have made all of the sacrifices I need to in life. MY TURN!  I plan on enjoying my 22-2 well into my retirement years. I grew up in these boats in the early 70's and fell in love with them at 15 years old. I'll let the kids worry about what the stuff is worth after I'm gone.

[seabob4]

If a truly restored 22-2 is what you really want to have, then by all means do it.  Do you want it to come out "Bristol"?  Then know you are going to be sinking some non-recoverable cash into her.  Do you want to just be "happy" with the restore?  Then the money outlay diminishes, unless your idea of happiness is perfection!  How much of the work can you do competantly, and to the level you would expect from a professional shop?  This will again reduce your outlay.

Myself?  I'd find a 22-2 with what I want on it (or close to it), in REALLY good shape, and fork over the 15-20K.  And then I'd USE IT!!!  Get her out on the water for a couple/few years, let her do what she was built to do!  As you use her, and decide that you want to add this, or change that, and you'll probably be in the financial shape (recovered from the initial outlay) to be able to tackle the job/change without really worrying about the cost, as opposed to looking at a total rebuild and the big price that comes with it...

I see too many people that got a great deal on a hull they wanted, planning to make it into the boat that they have envisioned.  5, even 10 years later, the boat is still sitting in the same place, half finished, never seen the water since the day she was brought home.  Kinda sucks to see this, you know?

JMHO...

[c master]

I really appreciate and value the input fellas, and of course I'm sure this subject comes up all the time so thanks for repeating yourselves for me.  In my observation these dreamy projects (just like cars) often fall by the wayside and the yards are full of the evidence.  Gran's guestimate for the $10k worth of restoration would satisfy me...and I feel like I could add the extra (read: "bolt-on") goodies over a period of time.  So if I found a decent 22-2 in Texas/Louisiana I'd get serious in a hurry.  1100 miles one way to SW Florida to pick up a hull gets a little less appealing. (Even as much as I like it there).

Being honest with myself, I do require my toys to look ship-shape and "professional", so the floor/transom work and the Awlgrip would be a requirement, along with a motor I trust.  I don't need a tower/2nd station, I don't need trim/trolls, I don't need a 2012 engine.  I'd like a nice big mapping GPS, I'd like good tabs.  A live well would seem important. T-top? Check.  I don't need 900 watts but there are Sundays on the water when I'd like to hear the Texans melt down in the 4th quarter in nice, clear stereo.  

But many of those things classify as occasional purchases or maybe Christmas present territory...if I'm particularly 'good'.   :santa:

In the meantime my 170 gets enough comments at the ramp to keep my ego/libido intact and it's pretty original - not Awlgripped - just buffed.  You all know it's hard to put a value on the feeling we get when someone says, "Man! That's a great looking boat!  How old is it?"   Not gonna get that with a _____. (fill in this blank with most other brands).

By the way, and please reply IF you consider yourself reasonably knowledgeable about this:  In today's world, what's the consensus?  ETEC or HPDI or "other"?  4-Stroke or 2-stroke?  Considering EPA legislation, annual maintenance cost, finicky moving parts, your own impressions, etc.  Realistically has it gotten to the point that between 200 hp motors, the differences are like pickin' the fly sh*t out of the pepper?  Or is there a clear winner?  Or loser?
Thanks again.

[seabob4]

I have a good friend, one of the best charter captains on the west coast of FL.  Runs a 225 Opti, new in '07.  He's on the water almost every day of the year (his wife loves to fish too, so that's what they do on his days off).  That motor has to be pushing 5000 hours.  Does the 100 hours, no issues.  

That's a pretty good testimony for Optis.  Here's his boat...

[gran398]

Re the 22-2. Bob to me has hit the nail on the head. Marc discussed it earlier. You could buy a damn-fine fully rebuilt Tampa restoration (investment 30K plus) for 18-20K maybe less given this still-stale whiz-poor economy.

Something like one of these that have been for sale for a while, private seller:

http://www.hammerheadlivewell.com/class ... ort-hd.htm

[Capt Matt]

C master
Buy a opti max. I make my living with my outboard as a full time fishing guide and would run nothing else. If you take care of them they last and outperform anything else on the water.  

This weekend I had the pleasure of guiding one of my long time clients and his buddy who fishes the FLW bass tour along with the top 150 tournament for the last few years. He is a full time guide on lake O when not on tour. We started talking shop as it turns out we are both Mercury pro's, He was a yamaha pro for almost 10 years before making the switch to Mercury a few years ago. No one runs motors as hard as these BASS guys 70mph +.

He had lots of nightmare stories about his buddies with e-tech's, constant breakdowns and them not covering there motors even though they where still under warranty. He also had lots of new SHO yamaha stories with lots of them blowing up with under a 100hrs on them. He said there are roughly 2000 of the SHO's out there that they know are going to blow up and don't know what the problem is yet. They will work out the problems I'm sure though. I would never buy any outboard in its first year of production though even if it was a mercury.
 
I also run a e-tech too on my buddies boat for the last few years and its had lots of problems without having close to the amount of hours on it I have put on my merc.   I know a few commercial guys that bought e-tech 115's and got rid of them quick with lots of lower unit and injector problems. When it comes to 4 stroke motors they are nice and quiet and great until you have to find a marina that can adjust the valves. The fuel economy/weight ratio is not close to a 2-stroke and they are more expensive to service.

Mid 70's 22-2's are easy to find, I have a long time friend out here on Pine Island that just had one given. Of the 3 he has rebuilt in the last 2 yrs this is the straightest one of them all. There where 1000's of these built. You should have no problem finding one to rebuild cheap.

I wanted to rebuild a flatback as my new guide boat. I really prefer the shallow water capability and they are more stable with a tower than a 22-2 12degree early 70's is. Besides that i just love the sexy shape. As you probably know if your on here much this hull was only made for 4 years and is a much harder hull to find. After 3 months of searching I paid $2500 just to rip it all apart.

My rebuild is all composite materials, with a tower, brand new motor and top of the line rigging. So far I'm in about $45K. The amount of hrs I have in her is in the thousands.  I can kind of justify it though as it will be  a tool for my business. The boat will more than pay for its self over the next few years.

If I ever wanted to sell the boat I would loose my butt. I know a fellow guide that had a 22 flatback custom built in tampa, its a sweet boat, i can't get a straight answer but think he is in about $75K. Its a way nicer boat in my opinion than a Dorado or a Gause and cheaper than both of them new. You could drop close to $75K on a new cookie cutter pathfinder, shearwater or ranger bayboat loaded.
I wanted to build a boat that would last me the rest of my guiding career. You can build one for a whole lot cheaper than I did with a used motor and not such extensive rigging or tower. Your best bet is to find one thats already built. Would I every sell my boat, no way, or trade it for a shearwater or pathfinder, not a chance. Its not even in the water yet and I cannot take it anywhere without people admiring her. She is a labor of love.
Capt Matt

[Aswaff400]

By the way, and please reply IF you consider yourself reasonably knowledgeable about this:  In today's world, what's the consensus?  ETEC or HPDI or "other"?  4-Stroke or 2-stroke?  Considering EPA legislation, annual maintenance cost, finicky moving parts, your own impressions, etc.  Realistically has it gotten to the point that between 200 hp motors, the differences are like pickin' the fly sh*t out of the pepper?  Or is there a clear winner?  Or loser?
Thanks again.

we have 3 boats in the marina with e-tecs, 31 cape horn twin 250's, 24 robalo twin 150's, 25 dorado single 200HO... the 31 cape horn has had nothing but problems: injector issues, lowerunit problems, starter coming loose, electronic control and gauge issues, atleast once a month which puts the boat out of commission for atleast 2 weeks each time. he has about 350 hrs on it. the dorado and robalo only have about 25 hrs...

im with the others, go with an optimax.

[MarshMarlowe196]

The question of "which new outboard is the best?" has been asked a lot.  If you go over to THT and do a search, you'll find pages and pages of people claiming _____ brand outboard is the best and they've never had a problem, or the only thing that's ever happened to it is _____ and it was minor.  Of course, there are some exceptions, but generally speaking, people tend to stand behind whatever outboard they chose to buy.

Seems that a lot of people here are fans of the Optimax, and for good reason.  We all own Aquasports, and Aquasports were designed to be powered with lightweight outboards, so we naturally think of 2strokes since conventional thinking tells us that 2strokes are lighter than 4strokes, and that's usually true.  BUT- its not always the case.  The Optimax is probably one of the better 2strokes on the market today, but it's not without its own flaws, and the biggest one I've seen is the recurring failure of the compressor.

The Optimax, and other engines, was discussed in this topic:
http://classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/view ... f=1&t=6845

Your right every 800-1000hrs the compressor will go on a opti-max, I have replaced so many that I know the sound to listen for 20-30hrs before it locks up. You can pretty much mark your calendar.
The key to getting the longest air pump/compressor life is having someone service it who knows how to clean the filter/screen for the compressor very few outboard mechanic's know its even there. This keeps the compressor cool. After putting more than 8000hrs on opti max's I have never blown a lower unit or a powerhead, only compressors and little crap breaks. They are about as bullet proof of a outboard thats made.

So, the compressor on an Optimax goes out regurarly.  BUT, the valves need to be adjusted on 4 stroke engines.  Ok.  I don't know how expensive it is to have a mechanic adjust the valves on a 4 stroke because I've never had to have it done on my engine, and I've heard of so few others with 4 stroke engines needing it done, but I'm guessing ballpark $1K.  So... how much is a compressor for an Optimax?  I'm sure it's not cheap.  Does a 4 stroke need a valve adjustment at the same interval as an Optimax needs a compressor?  I doubt it.  Marketing from outboard companies is mostly to blame for this misconception, but I think a lot people are confusing "inspection" with "adjustment" in the maintenance intervals called out for 4 stroke outboards.  You could run your 4 stroke for 1000's of hours and never need this work performed, and the majority of owners do just that, and yes these owners are your guides, commercial fisherman, etc...

Speaking of the Optimax- yes it is a 2 stroke engine, but no it's not lighter than a 4 stroke by leaps and bounds.  Mercury basically took a simple DFI 2 stroke engine and added lots of parts to it (compressor, belts, pulley's, ECM, advanced DFI throttle body) and now it's about as heavy as your comparable 4 stroke engine.

Ok, so what about fuel economy?  The Optimax has an air compressor, and we all know that if you have more air in a chamber with the same amount of given fuel, it will burn with more energy and therefore be more efficient.  But... that air compressor requires power to compress air, and that power comes from the engine, so the engine is being robbed of some of its efficiency to power an air compressor.  So, more or less, it evens out.  

This weekend I had the pleasure of guiding one of my long time clients and his buddy who fishes the FLW bass tour along with the top 150 tournament for the last few years. He is a full time guide on lake O when not on tour. We started talking shop as it turns out we are both Mercury pro's, He was a yamaha pro for almost 10 years before making the switch to Mercury a few years ago. No one runs motors as hard as these BASS guys 70mph +.
Capt Matt

I wont argue that the Optimax has probably the best low-end torque of all the outboards available, and that's what you want on a Bass Boat with a huge hole shot.  Our old Aquasports have a hole shot comparable to a Jon Boat.  When's the last time you've seen someone running a 4 stroke outboard on a Tournament style 20'+ Bass Boat?  But, to get to 70mph in a speed-tuned bass boat doesn't require anymore RPM's than it takes me to get to 43mph in my Aquasport.  They're running their engines close to WOT or WOT most of the time, just like we are.

I'm not saying the Optimax is a bad engine, I'm just saying I'd rather not count down my time on the water to the next replaced compressor, but that's only based on the information I've gathered.  

Basically, if decide you want a 2 stroke or if you decide you want a 4 stroke engine, a weighted argument is out there to support you in either decision you make.  Except, of course, if you decide to go with an ETEC which we all know is junk.  

Just don't tell ScarabChris that over on THT  

[GoneFission]

Valve adjustment is not that hard.  4 hour job if you know what you are doing and have the right tools.  

Nonetheless, I vote for the Opti also - I know lots of folks with them that are trouble-free.

[Capt Matt]

One option on the opti compressor issue is running a temperature gauge hooked up to the compressor. The main reason the compressors fail is they get grass or an obstruction in a water port that cools them, they overheat and then fry the bearing. I know of two guides who have 2000 plus hours on a opti outboard with the original compressor still going strong, They both have a second temp gauge rigged directly to the compressor. Once the temperature starts to slowly creep up they know its time to clean the water port.   It a cheap option to rig another temp gauge and has to be worth a shot if your running without warranty as a new air pump plus the install is not cheap.

The SHO and the new Verado pro XS 4 strokes were both designed for the bass boat market with lots of bass pro's running both on the tour. The 250 SHO has awesome hole shot and top end, it can hang right with a 250 Pro XS 2-stroke. They both weigh in right at 505 pounds. Other 4 strokes weigh roughly 50-100 pounds more than the 2-stroke of the same HP. The 175 pro XS I just bought for my flatback is 431 pounds and about the lightest 175hp on the market.

I run between 3000-3500rpm all day long, once in a while if I'm running late or running from weather i will run the boat a little faster but hardly ever wide open. . For me its all about the getting the most mpg and most comfortable cruise . WOT is not good for the wallet what ever motor you choose.
Outboards are like women some are better than others but there is no perfect one.

Capt Matt

[gran398]

c master,

ck. it out.....CC rebuild of the 22-2's big brother, the 240 Seahunter.

Its only 3 miles from my place, would be more than happy to ck it out if you want.

I've been watching it...it started at 22K back in the summer. This is sorta what we were thinking/talking about last night. You could tell him to keep the motors and offer on the rest....something to chew on.

http://wilmington.craigslist.org/boa/2553056975.html

[seabob4]

Jessie, I think I hear some of that Suzuki talk peeking about.  BTW, I do love Zukes, you know that...

Love that Etec comment about Chris!!!