Project - Aquasport 246CCP, 1979, Captain Koz II

[kaptainkoz]

Here is the look I am going for. This is an older pic from the winter but it had the console in its correct new location. On that photo I photoshopped a pilothouse that I liked. Its from a brand called True World Marine. I like the lines and angles. It actually has another window forward of that one but I photshopped it out to have only what I wanted. I love it! I wil scale the pictures and copy the lines and angles to re-create this look for my CCP

[dburr]

A nice Downeast look.   If you are fabbing it together, try drawing in  a 3 to 6 inch visor on the front of the top and see how she looks. Kind of like the house tops here:
http://www.calvinbealboats.com/34-36.html

A question about the router bit you posted in Rick's rebuild for getting set up for edge glueing the panels.  Is the expectation that using them will help in alignment or just added gluing surface?    Reason for asking is that your line up is going to have to be dead nuts or you will end up with a gap on one side or the other if you clamp the panels flat it here is any misalignment of the cuts.  If you are a bit off and clamp the joint together (pulled together) then the panels will not line up on the faces.  

Another option for good glueing surface is a bead and cove example, just have to get them for 1/2 inch..

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18920 or better yet:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Bead-Bit-For-Small-Boat-Planking-1-4-Shank/C1378
and
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Flute-Bit-For-Small-Boat-Planking-1-4-Shank/C1379

These allow for a bunch of adjustment and you have to be really close, but not dead nuts.. I have had good success with these too..

Or you could do what Chris said and but them together and glass away.  Harold Pason, a long time builder up here would but ply together, pull out the wood eraser (BIG angle grinder with 36 grit) and sand a dished grove down the joint then fill with polyester and tape till it was flush, kinda like taping sheetrock.  That was quick and it worked great and with the correct prep you didn't notice it once it got covered..

[saltfly]

I use a number of those bits, for my wood working. They do give you a greater bonding surface and keep, in planking, cupping down to a minimum. In plywood, the greater bonding surface is the reason to use them, Since cupping isn’t the problem.

[kaptainkoz]

Thanks for all the great suggestions DBurr and SaltFly i appreciate it. I like the pics of those pilot houses and I like the down east look. However, I am not going gunwale to gunwale, I am building it just off of the console. Its going to be about 38 inches wide so it will be quite narrow. Basically it is a glorified T-top without the $1800 price tag and the off the shelf common look. As you mentioned, I plan on some form of a visor of a few inches as I like the look of that. The photo was a quick alteration of the True World Marine enclosure. I love the look from the side. I want the roofline to look near parallel to the water when under way so it will be higher in the rear than in the front as compared to the natural horizontal lines of the boat.

They thinking and application behind it is that I like the functionality of the center console 360 degree design, so I do not want to mess with that by closing off the front like a walk around. Its intended range is less than 10 miles offshore so I have no need for a full cabin. I do not like the larger overhangs on the sided that a t-top features as at times I need to cast as I fish. The rear will overhang just far enough to meet the centerpoint of a flip back cooler seat so I can canvas in the cockpit area should need be. You couldnt cast from the cooler seat anyway so I dont see that as too invasive. I want the security of solid glass windows and the storage and mountability of accessories that a solid enclosure gives. I do not like trying to see through hazy eisenglass as it ages.

The enclosures' purpose is for me and maybe 2 other fisherman to tuck in tight to avoid a cold spray for the 20-30 minutes it will take to get to where ever we are fishing for the day. I doubt I will ever take more than 3 other guys out far in the early or late season. Even thought the boat can handle it, if I have the need to go really far and deep, I will leave that to a charter with a bigger boat and a full cabin. I dont think a center console is where I want to be a day away from land in a nasty turn of weather.

And lastly, I think its cool looking and I want to have something original that I can say I built myself. The thing with building it yourself is you can design it with any feature you want where ever you want them. You are not bound by what is available on the market. I enjoy the planing and execution of making something custom to suit my needs.


As for the bits, I chose that one because I believe it will evenly spread maximum contact area on the joint. Ply wood is exactly that, its plies. I feel this bit evenly distributes pressure over the plys evenly. The rounded bits you linked are similar and would probably work the same, but I think the "V" has a slight advantage as the outer most tip of the round that the bit cuts has no support as it is basically vertical. Its splitting hairs and not worth much debate as any of the ones in question will work fine.
As for lining them up exactly, I will use a table and not a hand tool. Santa wife brought me a cool router table for Christmas so I will run the sections through there. If I am off a 32th I can hit it with a sander to flatten it out. It is only 3 joints in total so I will make them work for me one way or another. As in most routing, you should run a test piece through to ensure allignment before you run the good piece through. Unfortunately this discussion is all in theory as I have not used the bits yet, but of course I will report the pros and cons when I do.

[dburr]

You have it goin on! I have birds mouth bits similar to the one on the right that I use for making round wood containers.  Originally bought them to build a flag pole, but that hasn't happened yet.. When sharp and on the router table they cut very clean and fast.    

[kaptainkoz]

I went to the lumber yard to check out the wood again. 1/2 inch marine seemed a bit thin to the feel to me so I went home and measured again. Turns out that due to swelling and wear and tear, the pieces of the floor that I removed were a bit thicker than 1/2 inch. They were more like 9/16 to 5/8. The former floor pocket is the same, plus the fact that I have to sand and clean out the pocket a bit brings me to about 5/8's. I was about to change the material list to 5/8 ply when I remembered that I have to glass the bottom of the floor as well. I will not fit 5/8 plus glass in that pocket. So, instead of one layer of 1.5 chopped strand under I'm thinking I may go with a layer or two of 1708 which should give me exceptional rigidity as well as build the 1/2 inch ply thicker for a nice fit in the pocket. Or, I can resin 5/8 with no glass on the bottom and go 5/8. What do you think?

[dburr]

Koz you can still put the chopped strand on the bottom and a layer or 2 of 1708 over the 5/8.. You may end up grinding some off to fit the lip but the extra 1/8 inch and the added plus will give you strength and peace of mind.  My vote would be 5/8.. Then again my old work bench was edge set 2x6 with 4x4 legs. I would rather over build then worry..

[RickK]

A heavy resin coat on the bottom of the ply will do what you need it to do - no glass needed - been there done that and after 14 years it was still as I laid it.  I would still think about 5/8" and put 2 layers of 1.5oz on top. The wood is the structure.  Maybe top it off with 6oz cloth to give you a better base to finish.
My $.02.

[Georgie]

The wood is the structure.

GOD I hate when I have contrarian ideas here    (lest I be jettisoned from my favorite forum like a fraternity pledge who won't drink), but I want to make sure that we all understand the wood is never the strength of any fiberglass laminate/sandwich.  Properly laid fiberglass in properly mixed resin (yes, even poly resin) is much stronger (both PSI compression and tensile strength) than plywood could ever be.  What the wood core does is provide a cheaper way to create a (hopefully) well bonded and lighter weight separation zone between top and bottom glass layers that functions much like the diagonal cross braces on a barn door.   The harder and drier the plywood and the fewer the voids, the greater the strength of the lam.  The drier ply absorbs the resin better and the cells in the wood have already shrunk as much as possible to reduce "compressibility" (if that's a word).  Just rap on the side of your hull with a mallet or knuckle and compare the hardness and rigidity to any plywood...ever stood on a 5/8" thick slab of multi-layer fiberglass and tried to bend it?  Now try the same with 5/8" ply alone and think of the amount of deflection you'd see?  Same thing with a compression test.  Hit each with a hammer once and see which one takes the deeper mark.  Surfboards make  another good analogy.  If you just resin or chop glass coated the bottom of the foam core and structurally glassed just the top of each surfboard (as opposed to both laminating top and bottom like they're currently built), how long do you honestly think it would take to fail under normal use/abuse?  I honestly don't have the time right now to dig up the info (visiting the in-laws and getting the evil eye from the wife  :evil: ), but if you want specifics I will do so at my earliest opportunity.

To clarify, my only point is that a hypothetical 1/2" plywood core sandwiched between two 3/16" thick layers of good biax or similar glass (I don't know the difference between 1708, 1808, etc. to know what makes different thicknesses) will be stronger (and slightly heavier) than a 5/8 inch ply core sandwiched between two similarly constructed 1/8 inch-thick glass skins.

Koz - My input is meant only as an advisory that you consider researching tensile and compression strengths of your materials and some additional lamination info to make your decision yourself based on both strength, needs, and finances.  The stringers will provide plenty of support for the floor either way.  We're all rooting for you and just doing our best to help.

[gran398]

The wood is the structure.

GOD I hate when I have contrarian ideas here    (lest I be jettisoned from my favorite forum like a fraternity pledge who won't drink), but I want to make sure that we all understand the wood is never the strength of any fiberglass laminate/sandwich.  Properly laid fiberglass in properly mixed resin (yes, even poly resin) is much stronger (both PSI compression and tensile strength) than plywood could ever be.  What the wood core does is provide a cheaper way to create a (hopefully) well bonded and lighter weight separation zone between top and bottom glass layers that functions much like the diagonal cross braces on a barn door.   The harder and drier the plywood and the fewer the voids, the greater the strength of the lam.  The drier ply absorbs the resin better and the cells in the wood have already shrunk as much as possible to reduce "compressibility" (if that's a word).  Just rap on the side of your hull with a mallet or knuckle and compare the hardness and rigidity to any plywood...ever stood on a 5/8" thick slab of multi-layer fiberglass and tried to bend it?  Now try the same with 5/8" ply alone and think of the amount of deflection you'd see?  Same thing with a compression test.  Hit each with a hammer once and see which one takes the deeper mark.  Surfboards make  another good analogy.  If you just resin or chop glass coated the bottom of the foam core and structurally glassed just the top of each surfboard (as opposed to both laminating top and bottom like they're currently built), how long do you honestly think it would take to fail under normal use/abuse?  I honestly don't have the time right now to dig up the info (visiting the in-laws and getting the evil eye from the wife  :evil: ), but if you want specifics I will do so at my earliest opportunity.

To clarify, my only point is that a hypothetical 1/2" plywood core sandwiched between two 3/16" thick layers of good biax or similar glass (I don't know the difference between 1708, 1808, etc. to know what makes different thicknesses) will be stronger (and slightly heavier) than a 5/8 inch ply core sandwiched between two similarly constructed 1/8 inch-thick glass skins.

Koz - My input is meant only as an advisory that you consider researching tensile and compression strengths of your materials and some additional lamination info to make your decision yourself based on both strength, needs, and finances.  The stringers will provide plenty of support for the floor either way.  We're all rooting for you and just doing our best to help.

Excellent post Georgie

Koz, on the underlay....as it will be exposed..go with a layer or two of 1708 as Dave Burr advises.

[gran398]

Koz...another idea, independent of  former thinking.

Golf car top.

Everglades Boats is using a molded polystyrene top on their latest production....no fiberglass. May not be shown here, but have viewed locally and looks good. Minimal weight.

http://evergladesboats.com/boats.cfm/mo ... s/id/23186

Something to consider.

[dburr]

So there I was trying to decide whether blue board foam would be a good bonding surface and filler when sandwiched between 2 pieces of 3/16 luan.  I was building a skiff and I wanted the deck to be strong and light..  The only foam that I had laying around at the time was 2", no worries, I just glued two 6"x12" pieces of luan, one to a side, with thickened epoxy to the blue board.  The board was prepped by removing the plastic sheet that seals each side then it was lightly sanded with 120.  After a 48hr set up, just in case, I began to try and break it up.  First was me jumping in it.. Then I built a homemade press out of 2x4 and 3" drywall screws and powered by a 3 ton bottle jack.. (Discolsure: I did push on the test piece with a 2x2 piece of 1/8" plate because the jack head would have punched through the luan).  I broke the press..  Then I got out the 5210 John Deere (weighted tires, about 4500#) and ran it over.  Only damage was to the edges where the tires tore up the luan a little.  So me being me  :evil:  :twisted: I stood on the piece with the bucke edge and that did it. It did however cut throught the top layer before the bottom broke..  Now, if I'd have take the time to glass the luan, that would have been impressive....

Moral of all this? Just like Ryan said, it ain't the filler in a composite system, it is the surfaces.  Think I-beam.  The fancy high dollar cores are not strong by themselves, the advantage in them is they are light for their thickness and won't rot.  For the most part they won't hold a fasener either, (neither will thin sheet plywood)....  But when glassed on either side is when they really gain strength and become a justifiable expense..

Just food for thought..

An aside, I also made a wakeboard out of the blue foam.. I went to skimpy on the glass on the rail and my nephew's big old monster foot cracked it.  What was interesting is that water got in and the hydraulic action at 20mph cause the glass on the bottom to separate from the foam.    Not sure I would use the foam on an exterior surface after that, maybe that delam could be expected of with any substraght but I'd rather have someone else prove it..

[kaptainkoz]

Thank you EVERYONE for taking the time to school me. I got it now. Lightbulbs went on. I had an "ah haaaa" moment.  I had all the pieces in my head but I needed you guys to line them up for me. I beams and surfboards did it for me. I get it now and it makes perfect sense. Im going 1/2 inch glassed strong on both sides.

Also, to add, the inner cap walls (gunwales) are super floppy now that they are cut from the deck. Makes me put in perspective how relevant the bond is from the cap to the gunwales to the floor as for overall rigidity of the boat. I would fear trailering this boat right now as I think it could do damage to the existing cap from it flopping and rattling all over the road. Makes me think more about how to bond it all back together as strongly as possible with the few inches of upper and lower tabbing I have left to work with. I think a strong top and bottom glass skin on the deck insert will not only give the floor rigidity (surfboards and I beams), but will also act as two tie in points to tie the cap/gunwales to the stringers. Vinylester resin will help. (note: not interested in epoxy as I want to use gelcoat and im cool with spending a bit more for the vinyl over poly)

[kaptainkoz]

Progress!


Today was a great day! Sold an outboard that will fund the Seacast and most of my glass and resin, junked the blue donor boat, and sold the trailer it was on as well. I was very short on time so I had to get mideval with the sawzall in removing the outboard bracket from the blue donor hull. Tomorrow I will get all those bolts out and make a template to use going forward. I hope to get to the glass supplier tomorrow or monday, and maybe get my seacast order in as well! Very exciting!!

[kaptainkoz]

I went shopping....



1 roll of biaxial 1708, 50" (Note.. Discovered by Carl on 10/24 that its actually 2408, which is 24 oz instead of 17)
1 roll of 1.5 oz chopped strand, 50"
5 gal vinylester resin
5 gal gel coat
3 gal 2lb foam
gel coat gun and cups
styrene
wax additive
mold release wax
rollers
MEKP dispenser









and I built this nifty cool roller rack to store it all on






Extra special thanks to Reinforced Plastics in Farmingdale NY for their great help and prices. I have been going there for small stuff for a few years now and they have always been friendly and eager to answer questions. Whether I was buying a quart of poly resin or todays mother load of goods, they were always great!

The temps are dropping fast here so I gotta get that foam in the stringers asap.