Project - Aquasport 246CCP, 1979, Captain Koz II

[kaptainkoz]

FINNNNAAALLLYYY got to tearing up the floor. I started with one of those vibrating cutting tools which worked well for about 10 feet before the teeth of the wood blade dulled. I had the diamond grit one but that didnt do a thing. Very little dust but noisy. Went with old faithful... Makita 4 1/2 inch angle grinder with a metal cut off blade and made quick but dusty work of it. There was a slight drizzle so the hint of moisture kept the dust down.

I drew a line about 5 inches from the gunwales for the first cut. I didnt go super deep just yet but this is about how far out I will go to leave a good bottom lip for the new flooring to sit on. eventually I will trim back the upper deck layer to just where the plywood starts and sand the gelcoat back to the gunwale as a surface to tab to.

Wowzers was that plywood core SOAKED! Not only was it soaked, it was totally parquet. Small, half foot squares checker boarded in as the core. it came up like wet newpapers. It took me about an hour to do what I did in these pics.

I am super excited in a few ways in that this wet stuff is HEAVY! So changing out the floor will definitely have an affect on weight. Also, anyone that has any concern about strength... I think that debate just ended. Any solid ply should have many times the strength of this patchwork core.

One interesting new bit of information is that there was a floor under the floor where the coffin box goes. As you can see in the last pic there was an additional layer of flooring glassed in under the flooring in the space between the stringers in the coffin box area. I guess it didnt help much as that area seems to soften first for many. It got dark before I could really take a look at the stringers and the blige but ill see more tomorrow as hope to get the entire floor out.

[jdupree]

Coming along nicely Koz   I wonder how many of us have parquet floors   No wonder some of these decks rotted so quickly   They never had much support to begin with Talking about the factory taking a "shortcut"

[kaptainkoz]

Totally John. I think I got a "lets stay in budget this month" model! lol. Even the transom isnt a full two sheets of 3/4 ply. It is only doubled up to cutout height. The sides above the transom are single layer 3/4, and multi piece as well! Thats crap, but not for too much longer!

My buddies Grady gas tank cover was the same way. One justification I heard was that the boards are set down in alternating grains to prevent warping. Sounds like a Washington D.C. justification to me. Ill take my chances with a full piece of douglas fir marine ply thank you!

[kaptainkoz]

Boyyyy did I have fun today! I got most of the floor out, most of the transom out, and all the tubs out of the way. I still have to gut the foam out of the boat and the stringers as well as carefully cut back the upper floor layer to just were the plywood ends to prepare the lip for the new floor to sit on.
Looks like I got the end of the month run as my entire boat was scraps. Even the transom was 2 layers of 3/4 ply even with the cutout but not all the way to the gunnels, then it was a few pieces of single 3/4 scrap to finish it off. Disapointing quality but I am excited because I will make her better than she ever was!!!








forget the hammer and chisel... I got out the big dog rotary jack hammer and made quick work of the rotted transom. It split fairly easily but they did fiberglass between the two layers of plywood which added an annoyingly strong layer. Note to builders... the wood was mulch but that middle layer saved the day.









got the gas tank tub up. I will clean up the edges and re install it for future use.



What a mess! Thank God my neighbors love me... im the guy with the snowblower!


The transom plywood was SOAKED and parts of it were rotted mulch


in this pic you can see on the transom near the starbord edge, where one piece of single ply was, then a second single piece below it, then you can see a diagnal line from the thru hull hole to the cutout near the blue grinder, from that line down and across was where it was 2 layers of 3/4.


I got most of the wood off of the transom with the jack hammer. All that is left is a thin wet coat of plywood that ill let dry and make quick work of with a sander. I cut the stringer back just a bit to be able to work and clean it out good. I am going with a 2 inch poured transom so I will need the room anyway. Once its done I will glass the stringer to the transom for more support.


The plywood did not go down past the drainplug. Was this by design or mistake?


Mass carnage!


Not bad for a days work. The stringers are in excellent condition with no delamination. The keel has a few holes in it. I could cut it open and fill it with Sea Cast but i think I will just run a fillet of 1708 over it and call it a day. I plan on painting the entire bilge with gel coat or bilge paint to aid in water drainage and prevent frost heaving. One thing I wish I would have done is measured the actual floor width. As you see in this picture, without the floor the gunwales are free to move back and forth a bit. I will have to glass a tie from the gunwale to the stringer to hold them in place before I lay the floor. I should have measured how far they were from the hull and cut spacers. Not a big deal but just something I would have done differently if I could do it over.


Transom is ready for final cleanup and sanding


ALOTTTT of garbage. Its about 10 wet heavy bags. I will take them to the dump myself over a few runs. My garbage men would kill me!


Alot of spare parts. Some of these are from my donor 200CCP.


Gas tank tub with the edges cut clean. I will taper the top edge and run the floor fiberglass just up to the edge of the inside drop. I want the new floor to look super clean and smooth. I also saved the cable channels in case I want to re use them. I see that many went with PVC but I was surprised as how heavy PVC is. I may try to reuse these somehow as they are super light.

[kaptainkoz]

So what did I learn today?
My entire parquet floor was a/c 1/2 inch. So with that said, is it possible to replace the floor with 1/2 doug fir marine ply with a coat or two of 1.5 chopped strand on the bottom and 1708 plus 1.5 chopped strand on the top? Do they make a 5/8's? Im starting to doubt that I need to go a full 3/4. Seems like overkill for what I pulled out.

Also, the keel. Doesnt seem like anyone bothers with it. Im sure the core is mush but the roving looks good. Do I need to cut the top off and deal with the core or can I run a pass of 1708 over it and call it a day?

Also, the bilge area roving seems porus in some spots. It freezes here over the winter and I think one part of the keel may have a frost heave crack on the keel. Would it be wise to either gel coat or bilge paint the entire bilge area to seal all pores and aid in water runoff? And if thats a good idea, which product is best?

Lastly... gutting the stringers. I have spent way too much time thinking which cut makes for the strongest repair. I see many cut the tops off but I am skeptical that a few layers of glass are going to be strong enough to hold them back together at the cut lines. They are thick! Has anyone cut "windows" out of the sides and gutted the foam that way? I am really stressing over how to get the foam out without weakening the stringers.

[gran398]

Koz...wow. That is some serious mess you're pulling out. But after all it is a '79....its 34 years old.

The rough stuff is over....time for the build

The CCP's have massive stringers. Treat yours like any other rebuild....cut off the stringer tops tight to the former deck, dig out the mung and dry thoroughly. Re-foam, re-glass.

Deck: You're right. Half-inch well-encapsulated fir you're good to go. If you can spray chop all the better. My ride has sprayed chop in many places as a bed/substrate to roll out glass. It is not structural...just a light bedding surface for the next step, rolled glass. Roll the glass while the chop is wet.

Keel, and even the chines: While she's opened up...fix what you see. You can never have too much weight in this low, strategic area of any boat.

Bilge: Yep...brush, roll, or spray gelcoat. I'm not sure why more folks don't go with gelcoat on the entire rebuild. Doesn't scratch, doesn't wear. Keep it waxed, put a buffer on it every three years...and yep, you can muscle the buffer.....it will last forever with proper attention.  Paint has its attributes. It is simpler, faster, easier, and you can spray high-build to fair before the final coats...and it looks great. But after ten years of active boating...break out the longboard, the filler, the paint and the gun.. and do it all again.

Gelcoat is a PITA for finish work (hullsides and interior) without a correct gun. But the benefits down the road are worth the extra work now IMHO.

If you go with gelcoat...forego epoxy.

[kaptainkoz]

Gran,
Thank you as always for the great information. I do plan on getting a gel coat gun as I want to do the sole in gel coat as well. I don't want to use paint topside. The whole boat is gel coat that lasted this long. I like that you can repair Gelcoat fairly easily which alot of paints cannot be so easily touched up. Thanks again for chiming in and helping to clear my mind and tighten up the plan. More progress to come!

[gran398]

Good on you! You've chosen a project that would intimidate most...but the good news is, you're not alone here

Speaking of gel...here are a couple pics of a gelcoat rebuild from a while back

[gran398]

Got to thinking about your stringer tops.

How about every two feet, cut a one foot section out. Number them...and after you dig out the foam, glass them back in.

[jdupree]

Koz, I might have missed it but were you able to determine if the foam in the stringers by the transom were wet?  Point being is my transom was shot but the foam in my stringers were bone dry.  The foam in the CCP stringers didn't seem to have the moisture problems as some of the other models.

My opinion would be that if you determine the foam is dry back at the transom, chances are they are dry the rest of the way forward if they are in good shape.  If they are wet back by the transom, you could always dig out and work your way forward and you might find them dry once you work your way forward.

When the transom and rear deck was out of mine, I could have had him "beef" up the stringers but he said that the stringers were in great shape like it appears yours are.  I guess while you are in there you could "beef" them up on the outside, but you might find that the foam is dry and removing it might not be necessary.

[Blue Agave]

Koz,

Check out how this guy cut his stringers to remove the foam.

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... 3&start=10

[Aquaman25]

CaptainKos II,I don't know if you have seen this or not.
if you have I apologize and I  apologize if I'm not supposed to posts links.
http://www.promboats.com/blog/2012/01/0 ... l-transom/
Jay

[kaptainkoz]

Aquaman, blue, Gran and John,
Thank you again for sharing. I am definitely set on mastering gelcoat. I have a HVLP gun with a special 2.4 or 2.8 tip (one or the other cant remember exactly) that is proper for gelcoat. I am also going to purchase the cup type gel coat gun, but i suspect the cup type is not as smooth. I think the bilge will be a great place to practice spraying without wasting it. Who cares how it turns out in the bilge. Hopefully I will get the hang of spraying with either or both guns. What sucks is that when it sets up its all over so you have to make sure to mix it "cold" with less MEKP. The HVLP gun has to be disassembled and cleaned completely after every use and before it sets off. Ill figure it out.

Stringers.....
I started out the day a but sore after yesterday and I didnt intend on working on the boat. I figured, let me go out and measure on the stringers were everything lays out. Big mistake.

I measured everything off and marked it. I am glad I kept the sole skins as many of the visual references I was using to lay out the boat were based on what was there prior. I did measure everything out prior but it helped to confirm when some of the numbers seemed a bit off. The boat looks totally different without the floor obviously. To my disapointment, the mounting holed of base plate of the console are on the outer edge of the stringer with a few of them missing the stringer completely. This may be due in part to moving the console forward where the stringers start to taper inward. I will address this by building out a mounting surface on the outside of the stringers, as well as glassing in cross supports perpendicular to the stringers to give the front and rear edge of the console something to screw down to. I want to be able to pick the boat up by the console! I am also thinking about adding a few cross supports under the coffin box as I am putting serious consideration into going with 1/2 inch ply and the span under the coffin box is a bit wide. I may shore it up. I have to check if they carry or can get 5/8's marine fir which would probably be 6 layers ( 1/2 is 5 layers, 3/4 is 7 layers) which may be in the running. Based on the crap i pulled out of the boat, i think 3/4 is a bit much.

So the puddle of foam between the stringer and the gunwale caught my eye and I started to think about what it was going to take to pull up the foam. I started bringing out the tools and trying them out. This blue gardening tiller tool with spikes worked pretty good but the best was probably the narrow shovels. I would get under the else of the foam with the shovel and pop a chunk up. The exposed foam came up quite fast and was a bit wet on the bottom but noting too alarming.

I then got out the jack hammer and started to remove all those dollops of concrete-like material that was used to bed the deck to the stringers. some of it was also spilled on the bilge so the jack hammer made quck work of those.

I then started planning out the stringer cuts. The stringers were cast with various valleys in them that were used for various purposes such as the rigging tubes and the fuel lines. Some of them didnt make sense to me as im guessing they cast one set of stringers for all their models at the time. Well I have another issue in that I am moving around everything but the fuel tank tub, so those reliefs really make less sense and most will have to be moved or filled. I took particular exception to the oversized angled ones that the rigging tube ran through to the console. I would have filled in this depression to deck level anyway, so I figured this would be a good place to start with the first cut being I will glass here anyway.

As the son of a machinist/hoarder/collector Father, his house is filled with any and all tools that you could imagine. My game changing tool came in the form of a custom made, 4 foot long, 2 inch wide drill bit. Why he has it, who made it and for what is beyond me, but I am thankful! As you will see in the pics, I was able to drill long horizontal holes and then again through the foam fill holes, which swiss-cheezed the foam enough to be able to chip it out with narrow shovels. Then, I was able to use a fence post tamping bar through the  pour holes to do further damage and to leverage the foam left and right to break it from its place.
So from the gas tank fill hose proximity, I have cleared all the way back to the transom, and almost all the way forward. I am about 4 feet from the bow which means I will probably have to cut one more opening. It wasnt fun at all but for the sake of 2 cut outs to clear the whole stringer ill take it.

The foam was far from mega soaked but it was a little wet. in my case im not sure if it was worth it but its too late now. Hopefully the port stringer is more wet to make me feel better.

I did not know that there is plywood glassed to the inside of the stringer along the middle of the boat. This plywood is fairly moist but there isnt much i am going to do about it as I am not going to cut it out. Im not sure why it is there, maybe as a backing so the gas tank straps have more bite? It wasnt glassed in very well at all, maybe one layer. In fact it is delaminating forward of the cutout.

I also have a pic or two of keel damage. I will have to address what to do with the keel as well.

Today was not fun. I am hurting a bit from yesterday and another day of sweating it out is going to have me grabbing for the Celebrex tonight! I should not do two days back to back of hard labor, however I am obsessed with getting this project along.  More to come!



some pourus roving on the keel


As you can see from these two pics, there is some keeel damage that needs attention. I would guess that horizontal crack is from frost heaving.


This tool did okay with the foam.


This skinny shovel did great at getting under the corner of the foam and popping out a chunk.


I used the jack hammer to chip off the concrete-like bedding material that was on top of the stringers.


I maked out on the stringer about where everything will go. This also got me to see how I will have to modify the stringer cut outs to run all the hoses and wires to their new locations.


First cut... the relief where the rigging tube went. I planned on filling this relief in anyway so I figured it a great place to make a first cut. Started digging out the foam with the narrow shovel.


Now THATS a drill bit! About 4 ft long and about 2 inches wide. Custom welded and made. Why I have no idea!!! However, it is with this tool that I may have saved the need to make additional cuts in the stringers. I drilled through the existing foam pour holes as well as horizontal which made the foam easier to snap with a shovel. Still not easy or fun, but I will have the stringer cleared out on 2 cut outs.


drilling horizontal


Swiss Cheese


Drilling through the foam pour holes



using the tamping bar to break the foam down further and push it towards the opening.


a ton of foam.... not as wet as I would have liked. Hopefully the port stringer is soaked to justify the effort.


cleared through to the transom. I have to do a final cleaning still


Cleared within a few feet of the bow

[kaptainkoz]

Does anyone know the volume of those stringers? How much foam do I need? I want to go with the 4 lb foam for added rigidity.

[Capt. Bob]

Does anyone know the volume of those stringers? How much foam do I need? I want to go with the 4 lb foam for added rigidity.

Koz,
I'm not familiar with how foam volume is derived but the mixed product volume should be on the container. You can however, calculate the stringer volume yourself and get a good idea on how much foam you'll need. Here's how.

Looking at your last pic, measure the inside dimensions of the stringer. You'll have four (duh) measurements A, B, C, & D. Add those together and divide the sum by 2 (A+B+C+D)/2. That's a constant you'll use for the rest of the calculation (call it X).

Now subtract each measurement from "X". X-A, X-B, X-C and X-D. You now have four new measurements. E, F, G, and H.

Multiply these four numbers together and then take the square root of the product (call your new dimension Z).

Now, just measure the length of a stringer and multiply that dimension by Z. That will give you the volume (cubic area) of one stringer in the units that you measured (say inches).

It's easy math you can do with a calculator, though there was a time when we did square roots longhand. They call the stringers trapezoidal but because of the V in the hull bottom, they don't fit the true definition of a trapezoid. This formula served land surveyors for years calculating area (in the days before fancy calculators). It will get you real close.

Good luck