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Author Topic: CCP25 engine arrangement  (Read 3744 times)

August 24, 2007, 04:41:53 AM
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aquaclassic

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CCP25 engine arrangement
« on: August 24, 2007, 04:41:53 AM »
Hi all,
last year I bought a CCP25 made in 1991 powered by a Mercury 225 XL with 19 inches propeller in bracket configuration.
Problem: over 2900 rpm propeller goes out  of grip, suddenly the rpm engine jump high and down, the speed increase up to 33 kph (over 5000 rpm). This engine behaviour force to sail at low speed.
Boat story: this CCP25 was launched in 1994 powered with two Mariner 150 XL. In order to have a good power arrangement, considering the deep V of the boat, the engines was positioned at higher holes. The old owner was not satisfied  to see these engines so higher and decided to move to another configuration installing a single Mariner 225 XXL in central position. Also in this configuration, maybe because it was too deep in comparison with the deep V keel, the boat cruised slow ,fuel consumption was very high, at trim zero the boat sailed skew to right.
When  I bought  it, I found the Mercury 225 XL because the Mariner had a gear box trouble,  but it  seems to be too short, positioning the propeller too close the water surface ( a hypothesis ).
Knowing that the engine is mounted in a 30 (roughly) inches long bracket, question is: do anybody know how is the right propeller position  in comparison with V keel and the water surface?  
Thanks to all.

August 24, 2007, 05:05:35 AM
Reply #1

RickK

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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2007, 05:05:35 AM »
Hi AC and welcome aboard. :!:  :!:   I think we now have 3 or 4 members from Italy. 8)
The motor is usually installed with the cavitation plate equal to the bottom of the hull although some mount their motors on jack plates that allow them to tweak the motor up and down to get it at a perfect height for the conditions that the boat is in.
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (It's usable but not 100% finished)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

August 24, 2007, 07:07:42 AM
Reply #2

John Jones

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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2007, 07:07:42 AM »
Welcome!

The 30' bracket setback should allow one to mount the motor with the cavitation plate 2 to 3 inches higher than the bottom of the keel.  

Are you sure it's not the propeller hub slipping?  There is a rubber core between the propeller hub and the propeller itself.  If the rubber goes bad it will start slipping at higher loads.
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August 24, 2007, 05:04:35 PM
Reply #3

GoneFission

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Cav
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2007, 05:04:35 PM »
Yes to all the above - either the motor is mounted too high on the bracket, or the hub is spinning in the propeller.

See if you can move the propeller any on the hub/shaft.  You can check this by raising the motor, putting it in forward or reverse, then trying to turn the prop by hand.  There should not be any "slop" or movement in the rubber hub.  If there is, you need to replace the hub bushing.  The rubber hub protects the shaft and bearings by absorbing shock when the propeller hits something.  If the propeller encounters something that causes the propeller to spin on the hub, it becomes loose and will spin under engine load.  

The other scenario is that the engine is mounted too high on the bracket.  As described above, you can take a meter stick or straightedge and run a line off the bottom of the boat back to the cavitation plate on the motor.  The cavitation plate should not be more than 20-40 mm above the hull line.  Without the bracket, the plate should be just above the hull line.  

Good luck!
Cap'n John
1980 22-2 CCP
Mercury 200 Optimax 
ASPA0345M80I
"Gone Fission"
ClassicAquasport Member #209


August 30, 2007, 12:13:52 PM
Reply #4

aquaclassic

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Re: Cav
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 12:13:52 PM »
Hi GoneFission,

your solutions seems to be very interesting and match with our local esperts opinion.
I think to pursue them.
I'll let you know

Many thanks

Max Tritelli


Quote from: "GoneFission"
Yes to all the above - either the motor is mounted too high on the bracket, or the hub is spinning in the propeller.

See if you can move the propeller any on the hub/shaft.  You can check this by raising the motor, putting it in forward or reverse, then trying to turn the prop by hand.  There should not be any "slop" or movement in the rubber hub.  If there is, you need to replace the hub bushing.  The rubber hub protects the shaft and bearings by absorbing shock when the propeller hits something.  If the propeller encounters something that causes the propeller to spin on the hub, it becomes loose and will spin under engine load.  

The other scenario is that the engine is mounted too high on the bracket.  As described above, you can take a meter stick or straightedge and run a line off the bottom of the boat back to the cavitation plate on the motor.  The cavitation plate should not be more than 20-40 mm above the hull line.  Without the bracket, the plate should be just above the hull line.  

Good luck!

August 30, 2007, 12:29:47 PM
Reply #5

aquaclassic

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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 12:29:47 PM »
hi Jhon,
your hipothesys concerning the propeller hub slipping is interesting.
Since the max speed I reeched was 33MPH at 5500 rpm I wonder if could be possible.
In that case is it possible change just the rubber core? I have an original Mercury stainless stell 19 inch pich propeller (800€).

Many thanks

Max Tritelli

Quote from: "John Jones"
Welcome!

The 30' bracket setback should allow one to mount the motor with the cavitation plate 2 to 3 inches higher than the bottom of the keel.  

Are you sure it's not the propeller hub slipping?  There is a rubber core between the propeller hub and the propeller itself.  If the rubber goes bad it will start slipping at higher loads.

September 09, 2007, 03:32:13 AM
Reply #6

ddd222

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2007, 03:32:13 AM »
aquaclassic, #1-i am not the authority and there's a slight possibility i'm wrong, but as far as i know, aquasport didn't bracket any boats out of the factory as far as i know. I've seen a few models w/ brackets but likely modifications. As far as i know they went from notched transoms to euro-transoms which u now see on the most mid to late 90's models and newer w/ a few exceptions, .......
                  #2-IF I AM RIGHT, and that was a modification as i suspect, i agree w/ the logic and reasoning people change to brackets. Closing off the transom, and adding a bracket would have given me a ton of more square feet of fishing space behind the helm and seating area of my 222ccp. It also would have better utilized the splash well area and given better dry storage to batteries, wiring, access to bilge area's etc.
       Herein lies the problem in making this modification, and any intelligent discussion from me comes from reading quite a bit on the subject on classicmako.com, quite a few owners of mako's 21-25' have attempted to close off transom and add a bracket w/ less than stellar results. Happy w/ the extra room, but not happy w/ PERFORMANCE. A few guys spending a ton of $ changing the vertical height of the bracket on the transom numerous times, and also shaft length of lower units to achieve optimal performance. The worst horror stories i read about were on the smaller 21'-23' boats, w/ the bigger 25-26'makos not quite as affected by the modification. Complaints were mostly about the planing/trim and cruising characteristics being altered too much. Logically, a 22'mako w/ the same 200hp motor detached, setback a few feet on a bracket and re-installed, the boat will behave differently. The same old 475lb motor is set back a few feet, sitting lower in the water than designed, and at thrust the lower attitude changing the entire attitude of the boat cutting thru the water, or enough that the chines and original vee designed is compromised. A few guys have had some success by moving weight(consoles, batteries etc) forward, but quite a nightmare nonetheless.
           If i'm wrong the whole discussion is a waste, but ur problem sounds similar so i hope this was helpful in some way.(something a marine engineer could be helful with if anyone's got 1 on the payroll)

September 09, 2007, 05:18:47 AM
Reply #7

RickK

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2007, 05:18:47 AM »
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (It's usable but not 100% finished)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

September 11, 2007, 06:14:42 AM
Reply #8

aquaclassic

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 06:14:42 AM »
ddd222,
I can't say if Aquasport didn't bracket but in the photo gallery of the site many merber have similar CCP 25 with the same bracket of mine. Only difference: they have two engines while I have just one.
The issue start from the amount of money require in problem solving, as related from you.
I'll let you know, in the meantime...many thanks.
Max  :roll:

Quote from: "ddd222"
aquaclassic, #1-i am not the authority and there's a slight possibility i'm wrong, but as far as i know, aquasport didn't bracket any boats out of the factory as far as i know. I've seen a few models w/ brackets but likely modifications. As far as i know they went from notched transoms to euro-transoms which u now see on the most mid to late 90's models and newer w/ a few exceptions, .......
                  #2-IF I AM RIGHT, and that was a modification as i suspect, i agree w/ the logic and reasoning people change to brackets. Closing off the transom, and adding a bracket would have given me a ton of more square feet of fishing space behind the helm and seating area of my 222ccp. It also would have better utilized the splash well area and given better dry storage to batteries, wiring, access to bilge area's etc.
       Herein lies the problem in making this modification, and any intelligent discussion from me comes from reading quite a bit on the subject on classicmako.com, quite a few owners of mako's 21-25' have attempted to close off transom and add a bracket w/ less than stellar results. Happy w/ the extra room, but not happy w/ PERFORMANCE. A few guys spending a ton of $ changing the vertical height of the bracket on the transom numerous times, and also shaft length of lower units to achieve optimal performance. The worst horror stories i read about were on the smaller 21'-23' boats, w/ the bigger 25-26'makos not quite as affected by the modification. Complaints were mostly about the planing/trim and cruising characteristics being altered too much. Logically, a 22'mako w/ the same 200hp motor detached, setback a few feet on a bracket and re-installed, the boat will behave differently. The same old 475lb motor is set back a few feet, sitting lower in the water than designed, and at thrust the lower attitude changing the entire attitude of the boat cutting thru the water, or enough that the chines and original vee designed is compromised. A few guys have had some success by moving weight(consoles, batteries etc) forward, but quite a nightmare nonetheless.
           If i'm wrong the whole discussion is a waste, but ur problem sounds similar so i hope this was helpful in some way.(something a marine engineer could be helful with if anyone's got 1 on the payroll)

September 22, 2007, 11:22:07 PM
Reply #9

ddd222

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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2007, 11:22:07 PM »
ok so if it did come from factory, and i was wrong, try moving some weight forward and see if it helps your performance, we'll go from there, and even if it is a factory bracket, the previous owner could have played with bracket height or lower unit size(25 inch to 30 for example) when switching from twin to single configuration

September 25, 2007, 08:24:03 PM
Reply #10

Capt. Bob

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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 08:24:03 PM »
Quote from: "ddd222"
                 #2-IF I AM RIGHT, and that was a modification as i suspect, i agree w/ the logic and reasoning people change to brackets. Closing off the transom, and adding a bracket would have given me a ton of more square feet of fishing space behind the helm and seating area of my 222ccp. It also would have better utilized the splash well area and given better dry storage to batteries, wiring, access to bilge area's etc.

You are so correct with that idea. I've wanted to do just that to my 84.

       Herein lies the problem in making this modification, and any intelligent discussion from me comes from reading quite a bit on the subject on classicmako.com, quite a few owners of mako's 21-25' have attempted to close off transom and add a bracket w/ less than stellar results. Happy w/ the extra room, but not happy w/ PERFORMANCE. A few guys spending a ton of $ changing the vertical height of the bracket on the transom numerous times, and also shaft length of lower units to achieve optimal performance. The worst horror stories i read about were on the smaller 21'-23' boats
    )


I installed a full bracket on the 84 but never closed in the back. I've been happy with the results of the bracket install but maybe I should have expected more. While my boat handles well, top speed is only about 44mph (gps). I rarely ever run at that speed any more. Was top speed one of the performance drawbacks the Mako group saw with the mod? Is 44mph a poor speed for an 84 222ccp running a 200 Evinrude?

Man I'm lovin' this Forum!
]
Capt. Bob
1991 210 Walkaround
2018 Yamaha 150 4 Stroke
"Reef or Madness IV"

September 25, 2007, 09:35:51 PM
Reply #11

GoneFission

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Speed
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 09:35:51 PM »
44 MPH with a 200 on a 222CCP is pretty good - about right.  Mine maxes out at 40 with a 200 Merc and 19 pitch prop at 5300 RPM.
Cap'n John
1980 22-2 CCP
Mercury 200 Optimax 
ASPA0345M80I
"Gone Fission"
ClassicAquasport Member #209


September 26, 2007, 08:22:02 AM
Reply #12

Capt. Bob

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Re: Speed
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2007, 08:22:02 AM »
Quote from: "GoneFission"
44 MPH with a 200 on a 222CCP is pretty good - about right.  Mine maxes out at 40 with a 200 Merc and 19 pitch prop at 5300 RPM.


Well then I feel good.
44 was seen with just 10 gal. of fuel on board.When fully loaded and 4 adults she runs 40 mph very comfortably. My goal when I repowered in 96 was 40mph. It took some time and experimentation with props to achieve that goal. I currently run a Renegade Offshore (4 blade) prop 14.5 x 17. It allows the old "Rude" to run at 5500 rpm but with the fuel cost these days 3800 to 4000 is the norm. Like it or not, eveything seems to slow down with age. Funny thing though, that 44mph was seen just two months ago when we were down in Islamorada chasin' bugs.
]
Capt. Bob
1991 210 Walkaround
2018 Yamaha 150 4 Stroke
"Reef or Madness IV"

September 26, 2007, 03:15:24 PM
Reply #13

DOCREED

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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2007, 03:15:24 PM »
I have a 250 CCP with a factory Gill Bracket and twins.  Sometimes i have to trim the starboard motor down a little to stop cavitation.

It might be the transducer interfering with waterflow.  Just a guess on my boat.

89 250 CCP
full transom
Twin Merc 150\'s......thirsty?  YES they are.


October 03, 2007, 03:59:56 AM
Reply #14

ddd222

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« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2007, 03:59:56 AM »
doc reed, awesome boat! Putting to rest once and for all especially for me the factory bracket issue. Even with the bracket i'll bet a.s. left little or no access to bilges/ wiring etc. !!!(My biggest complaint about my boat).
   Capt Bob, most of the complaints were between 12-36 months ago when that mod was a hot topic. So if you've looked over there recently and can't find a discussion on it its prob because it was talked and beat over many times back then w/ much effort and $ spent by a few folks w/ very few happy results. And to answer your question top speed or wot was not a complaint. Now i think all these folks had their mako's for a few years before modifying, and their complaints started with the boat at rest. Even with transom mods, and original 450-500lb 2 stroke weight, it was set back further and bracket, motor exhaust, new drains replacing scuppers never at right height. And if they bracketed AND repowered w/newer di or 4 strokes the problem was compounded. THEN what i remember was the planing and cruising characteristics being changed severely. One guy tinkered so many times w/ bracket height, or engine shaft length, installing console forward etc so many times to get the boat to act like it originally did, said he hated doing it because he was never really able to enjoy the new power he spent so much $ on.
     I LOVE the idea of a bracket and the added benefits of brackets, and keep in mind that the smaller the boat, the more drastic the performance change. Thats halfway from reading, and a quote from "ringleader" at classicmako, the moderator and mako fanatic.  Quite a few guys have done it over there to 254 and 261 mako's with great success.
      Which brings me to my next point, when aquasport added brackets, as well as mako to their 261 model at the factory, they were to the 25-26' models, possibly reinforcing the idea that its easier to add the bigger the boat. BBUTT, now that i think of it, mako also had a 23' with a bracket for a short time. Given the fact i'm a wanna-be engineer, and really am not qualified to discuss other than what i've read online, my grade school guess would be the further the weight and source of thrust is set aft on the smaller crafts, the more drastic the change to efficiently utilizing the boats chines, deadrise from stern to bow. When i had visions of brackets on my 222, i imagined the biggest one possible, with room for my girlfriend and 6 friends to lay out in their bikini's. But bigger definately isn't better from what i've heard.  Even the successes with the 25's and 26's over there guys tinkered w/ different sized brackets, some with flotation, scuppers etc.
       To finally end and answer your last question capt bob, my 222 had 3 different motors w/ 3 different results. I'll give WOT #'s for our purposes as i think u were concerned with your performance.
Original evinrude 200-43 mph
upgrade evinrude 225-46 mph, both looper 87'model years leaving me stranded at least a dozen times
Last       Yamaha 250hp efi ox66 02'model, 53 mph at 4900 rpm WOT(propped wrong) the right wheel spinning 5800 i would have gotten mid to upper 50's

 


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