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Author Topic: 1969 222 rebuild  (Read 361 times)

May 20, 2020, 10:10:06 PM
Reply #15

BlackHagdon222

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 10:10:06 PM »
Remember that the original FBs had 70 or 90 hp engines and ran quite well.  Modern big engines will lure rebuilders to put a huge engine on the boat.  Our experience through many rebuilds is that a 150 2-stroker like Merc Opti or maybe the Rude is the perfect engine for the hull. A heavy 4 stroke is exactly that, heavy and changes the weight distribution. I have seen some guide boats with 150 Hondas but not sure if they compensated for the weight by moving things forward.

My plan is to put a bracket and a Suzuki df140 on the back. As far as I can tell they’re very small and light for the HP, especially for a 4 stroke. I think a 140 is more than enough power and with the flat back it should jump up on a plane with minimal effort. Is there any rule of thumb with new tank placement? I want to go up forward from the middle of the boat. Like one end under where the console will be and the rest running forward. It’s going to be a 55gal poly tank. And I appreciate the above advice as fast as making plans and drawings. I plan on keeping detailed records and putting pictures on a thumb drive for future reference. Read through the history page last night as well... is it possible my boat is earlier than I thought? Being a C+S? Thanks for everything Rick and company!

May 20, 2020, 10:37:45 PM
Reply #16

BlackHagdon222

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 10:37:45 PM »
The Suzuki df140 is 410lbs which is only 20lbs heavier than an evinrude etec 115. I’ll take 25hp for 20 extra pounds and not having to buy oil. Anyone else run a df140 on a flatback?

May 21, 2020, 12:21:26 AM
Reply #17

Ulysses485

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2020, 12:21:26 AM »
The Suzuki df140 is 410lbs which is only 20lbs heavier than an evinrude etec 115. I’ll take 25hp for 20 extra pounds and not having to buy oil. Anyone else run a df140 on a flatback?

I’ve done a lot of research on different weights of motors and that 140 seems to have excellent weight to power ratio so I would venture to say it’s a great option.
1971 - Flatback 222
1972 - Seahunter 240
1981 - Semi-Vee 222

May 21, 2020, 06:28:12 AM
Reply #18

RickK

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2020, 06:28:12 AM »
Remember that the original FBs had 70 or 90 hp engines and ran quite well.  Modern big engines will lure rebuilders to put a huge engine on the boat.  Our experience through many rebuilds is that a 150 2-stroker like Merc Opti or maybe the Rude is the perfect engine for the hull. A heavy 4 stroke is exactly that, heavy and changes the weight distribution. I have seen some guide boats with 150 Hondas but not sure if they compensated for the weight by moving things forward.

My plan is to put a bracket and a Suzuki df140 on the back. As far as I can tell they’re very small and light for the HP, especially for a 4 stroke. I think a 140 is more than enough power and with the flat back it should jump up on a plane with minimal effort. Is there any rule of thumb with new tank placement? I want to go up forward from the middle of the boat. Like one end under where the console will be and the rest running forward. It’s going to be a 55gal poly tank. And I appreciate the above advice as fast as making plans and drawings. I plan on keeping detailed records and putting pictures on a thumb drive for future reference. Read through the history page last night as well... is it possible my boat is earlier than I thought? Being a C+S? Thanks for everything Rick and company!
I was thinking the same thing that you could have an early 65 or even a 64 model.  I have not seen a badge with the C&S company name.
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (Rebuilding it now)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

May 21, 2020, 06:29:37 AM
Reply #19

RickK

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2020, 06:29:37 AM »
The Suzuki df140 is 410lbs which is only 20lbs heavier than an evinrude etec 115. I’ll take 25hp for 20 extra pounds and not having to buy oil. Anyone else run a df140 on a flatback?
Considering a 90 back in the day only weighed 320lbs, that's an extra 100 lbs.
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (Rebuilding it now)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

May 21, 2020, 06:48:54 AM
Reply #20

RickK

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 06:48:54 AM »
Remember that the original FBs had 70 or 90 hp engines and ran quite well.  Modern big engines will lure rebuilders to put a huge engine on the boat.  Our experience through many rebuilds is that a 150 2-stroker like Merc Opti or maybe the Rude is the perfect engine for the hull. A heavy 4 stroke is exactly that, heavy and changes the weight distribution. I have seen some guide boats with 150 Hondas but not sure if they compensated for the weight by moving things forward.

My plan is to put a bracket and a Suzuki df140 on the back. As far as I can tell they’re very small and light for the HP, especially for a 4 stroke. I think a 140 is more than enough power and with the flat back it should jump up on a plane with minimal effort. Is there any rule of thumb with new tank placement? I want to go up forward from the middle of the boat. Like one end under where the console will be and the rest running forward. It’s going to be a 55gal poly tank. And I appreciate the above advice as fast as making plans and drawings. I plan on keeping detailed records and putting pictures on a thumb drive for future reference. Read through the history page last night as well... is it possible my boat is earlier than I thought? Being a C+S? Thanks for everything Rick and company!
How big of a bracket?  Adding 100 lbs of extra motor weight and offsetting that from the transom will create a lever effect on the boat. We usually see porta brackets used and they offset I think like 25".
As for the poly tank, they grow in all directions by 1-2% when gasoline is poured into them, they expand and don't contract, so allow for that movement when you design the tank coffin.
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (Rebuilding it now)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

May 21, 2020, 07:54:09 AM
Reply #21

BlackHagdon222

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2020, 07:54:09 AM »
Rick, I have a build quote out with Armstrong brackets. I don’t know what the setback is yet. It’s also a full floatation bracket so that would help slightly with being set back I think? Up north here we don’t have much need for the porta brackets because I’m not going to be running quite as skinny as most guys. Seems no matter what most good brackets are around $3k so if you all think the Armstrong won’t work maybe I’ll look further into the porta. I know a lot of guys up by me who have restored Makos (more popular build in MA) and they all run Armstrong brackets with great success. Only downfall I see the mako builds having is they try and put motors that are drastically too big and they squat at rest. Like a 250 Yamaha 4 stroke on a 21’ or 23’.

May 21, 2020, 07:56:13 AM
Reply #22

BlackHagdon222

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2020, 07:56:13 AM »
As for fuel tank coffin how do I get it locked down tightly AND give it space to expand? Like just leave a few inches side to side and front to back? I would have made it too tight if you hadn’t said that so thank you.

May 21, 2020, 09:34:25 AM
Reply #23

Ulysses485

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2020, 09:34:25 AM »
Remember that the original FBs had 70 or 90 hp engines and ran quite well.  Modern big engines will lure rebuilders to put a huge engine on the boat.  Our experience through many rebuilds is that a 150 2-stroker like Merc Opti or maybe the Rude is the perfect engine for the hull. A heavy 4 stroke is exactly that, heavy and changes the weight distribution. I have seen some guide boats with 150 Hondas but not sure if they compensated for the weight by moving things forward.

My plan is to put a bracket and a Suzuki df140 on the back. As far as I can tell they’re very small and light for the HP, especially for a 4 stroke. I think a 140 is more than enough power and with the flat back it should jump up on a plane with minimal effort. Is there any rule of thumb with new tank placement? I want to go up forward from the middle of the boat. Like one end under where the console will be and the rest running forward. It’s going to be a 55gal poly tank. And I appreciate the above advice as fast as making plans and drawings. I plan on keeping detailed records and putting pictures on a thumb drive for future reference. Read through the history page last night as well... is it possible my boat is earlier than I thought? Being a C+S? Thanks for everything Rick and company!
How big of a bracket?  Adding 100 lbs of extra motor weight and offsetting that from the transom will create a lever effect on the boat. We usually see porta brackets used and they offset I think like 25".
As for the poly tank, they grow in all directions by 1-2% when gasoline is poured into them, they expand and don't contract, so allow for that movement when you design the tank coffin.

Rickk,

I hope OP doesn't mind me asking you here but can you elaborate on if you mean a lever effect in a negative or positive way. I have heard the concept that hanging the motors farther back helps to lengthen the boat therefore allowing weight forward to have a larger effect on the "lever" effect but i never really understood that and haven't needed to look into it until you are now mentioning it (especially because i have the itch to get a Flatback...even though i have a 81 222 in the yard hehe. ). It makes more sense that increasing weight AND moving the boat farther back will have a NEGATIVE impact on how the boat sits, correct?

BlackHagdon222, I assume if you are chartering you are not in a big hurry to get to the spot but noise would be a concern with a 2 Stroke? Can you provide what are you looking to accomplish with the build a little more in detail? I think that would help for perspective.

Looking forward to seeing this build.

Thanks for sharing.

Ulysses
1971 - Flatback 222
1972 - Seahunter 240
1981 - Semi-Vee 222

May 21, 2020, 11:51:31 AM
Reply #24

RickK

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2020, 11:51:31 AM »
There are some benefits to adding a bracket. When adding a bracket you are going to change the center of gravity of the boat's design. The normal question is how to counteract the weight offset or "how much weight and how much forward do I need to move it?"

Ulysses it's hard for me to explain lever (since I'm not an engineer), but it has to do with a thing called "moment" and a thing called 'Lever Arm".  Take a minute to read the definition of this http://web.mit.edu/4.441/1_lectures/1_lecture5/1_lecture5.html

Notice the term "Lever Arm" and the drawings on the right side.

This from Classic Whaler site: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/engineBrackets.html

"In addition, there are some more subtle performance benefits to this mounting technique:

    Bow lift (in static trim) may be gained from the changed weight distribution aft. When underway this in turn may allow the engine trim to become more vertical, resulting in the propeller thrust becoming more aligned with the forward motion of the boat.
    The engine thrust will be applied with a longer moment arm to the boat's center of lateral resistance and the boat's center of gravity, producing greater leverage of the engine thrust on both the boat's course and the boat's trim.
    Operation in reverse will be improved because of the increased distance between the propeller and the hull.
    Radically reduced immersion of the propeller may permit use of more efficient propeller designs, further increasing efficiency.
    Underwater drag of the lower unit may be reduced when its trim becomes more nearly vertical because of improved flow of water around the "bullet" of the gearcase.

The addition of the bracket's weight, the movement of the engine weight aft, and the additional buoyancy of the bracket (if any) will all combine to affect the static trim. The outcome is not guaranteed to always be an improvement. Another concern is the tendency of the boat's stern to settle when coming off plane. This may be accentuated by the lever arm effect of the bracket, possibly lowering the engine power head quite close to the water when a long bracket is used.

I have personally seen motors on a bracket go under water when the boat came off plane - so you will have to watch that.
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (Rebuilding it now)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

May 21, 2020, 11:59:16 AM
Reply #25

Tampa Bay Mike

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2020, 11:59:16 AM »
The Suzuki df140 is 410lbs which is only 20lbs heavier than an evinrude etec 115. I’ll take 25hp for 20 extra pounds and not having to buy oil. Anyone else run a df140 on a flatback?

Not a flatback but I run a 140 on my 22 mod-v and it's fine. Cruises around 30-32 at over 5 mpg and tops out around 40. Also weighs around 100 pounds less than the 150 but that is because it has a smaller block and therefore less torque. Overall its a good choice especially for a flatback which I've heard can get a little hairy with too much power.

May 21, 2020, 12:04:14 PM
Reply #26

RickK

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2020, 12:04:14 PM »
As for fuel tank coffin how do I get it locked down tightly AND give it space to expand? Like just leave a few inches side to side and front to back? I would have made it too tight if you hadn’t said that so thank you.

Note that the tank grows in all directions, even top to bottom. but it only grows once. So measure your tank and add 2% in each direction and make your coffin that big. On my tank I had 2 ribs going across the top so I used a piece of composite that fit between the ribs to anchor the tank. My poly tank is one with a very weird shape. Like follows the bottom of a 12 degree hull. but has a flat top. So the sides are only a couple inches high.
Rick
1971 "170" with 115 Johnson (Rebuilding it now)

1992 230 Explorer with 250 Yamaha

May 21, 2020, 10:18:57 PM
Reply #27

BlackHagdon222

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2020, 10:18:57 PM »
Ulysses, this is going to look like a commercial boat when completed. IE I don’t mind seeing painted woven mat and I’m sure when I paint the hull (which I have done a few of) it won’t be awlgrip or the most sexy paint job. I want to focus on making it extremely sturdy and rugged more than worrying about it being super pretty or what under gunnel lights I want. My wife wants a t top so I’m trying to source a used one currently. So mostly it’s a fishing rig that needs to be fuel efficient and reliable and stable. Weekends it’s for taking my wife and baby out around the harbor. Cost wise all in with motor I want to stick to $20k which I think is doable. Maybe I would say when finished it would come out like an old Parker?

May 21, 2020, 10:22:50 PM
Reply #28

BlackHagdon222

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2020, 10:22:50 PM »
As for fuel tank coffin how do I get it locked down tightly AND give it space to expand? Like just leave a few inches side to side and front to back? I would have made it too tight if you hadn’t said that so thank you.

Note that the tank grows in all directions, even top to bottom. but it only grows once. So measure your tank and add 2% in each direction and make your coffin that big. On my tank I had 2 ribs going across the top so I used a piece of composite that fit between the ribs to anchor the tank. My poly tank is one with a very weird shape. Like follows the bottom of a 12 degree hull. but has a flat top. So the sides are only a couple inches high.

Rick, thank you for the lever arm info, I’m looking forward to diving in for some research tonight. Also thank you for the coffin tips, I think I can visualize what you mean. There’s so much info to digest and I don’t want to go off half cocked. I’ve been a carpenter for 10 years now, and as far as the get started stage I just needed to start doing something to figure out what I need and where to go next. I will post some more pictures this week if I can get out of my bathroom remodel

September 09, 2020, 09:04:30 PM
Reply #29

Ulysses485

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Re: 1969 222 rebuild
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2020, 09:04:30 PM »
Any updates on this rebuild?
Ulysses
1971 - Flatback 222
1972 - Seahunter 240
1981 - Semi-Vee 222