Attention: Have 2 pages to see today

Author Topic: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!  (Read 907 times)

December 09, 2014, 08:35:17 AM
Read 907 times

numlaar

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 45
To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« on: December 09, 2014, 08:35:17 AM »
OK gang,

Seeing that I finally got my old Xscape powered and running decently, I need to start planning for next winter (I know that's a long way off, but am just looking for some opinions while I save up some cash).

Here is the general dilemma with details to follow... the Xscape is nice, rides well, about the right size for me, etc. but it isn't exactly what I want in a boat... its very close, but not exact. So the short version is, do I cut it up during the restore to make it what I want, or try to come up with another plan?

I have always wanted, and the wife really wants, a Deckboat. Bottom line is, I can't afford a new deckboat, or even a decent used one. My total budget is 5-6k. I've done the research, and I can do the restore on the Xscape for this much. Even doing it with some good materials, coosa deck, transom, all new gel coat, no wood, etc.

But, during the process, if I am going to split the cap, and re-do the whole thing, I would want to extend it a bit for an integrated motor bracket/swim platform (something like this ), and then I can re-design the layout inside as part of this process to gain some space, build in seating with storage, etc. Possibly even flare the front a bit to get some width for seating in the bow, basically turn it into a deckboat, with built in coolers where I want, baitwell where I want, etc. But if I do this, it would drastically change the way the boat looks compared to the original. Yeah it would still be an AS, but basically an unrecognizable one!

The reason I am asking all of this, is, because unlike the other AS models, it seems the one I have is extremely, extremely rare. Of the surviving 190 Xscapes, I think I have one of only a few, or possibly even  the only one that is a bowrider version. (The 180 tri-hulls were all bowriders), but the 190 deep vees weren't). They were all mostly closed bows. In fact, I can't even find a picture, or reference for another one with an open bow design. I've spent a lot of time researching, and am coming up blank. I am not sure, maybe the boat I have was originally some sort of special order?  I don't know, other than the fact, that I have NEVER seen another one like mine, ever.

My concern then is, based on this rarity, it seems like I shouldn't be cutting it all up, but rather just trying to restore it back to the way it was from the factory. Which is fine, except, then it wouldn't meet my needs in a boat.  It would be "ok" but not exactly what I want.

The current issues the boat has, are all of the traditional AS issues, floor (deck) is completely gone . Its literally just the fiberglass liner left, with no structural support underneath. The transom is actually a wood transom, and its "ok" for now, has a very slight flex, but when I did the repower, I had to drill 2 new holes, and it is waterlogged... so not sure how many years it has left. Bottom line is, the whole boat needs to be re-done with a true rebuild (separate cap/liner, re-do guts, put back together).

So here are my options as I see them:

1. Go ahead with the restore, and cut it up, and make it the way I want it to be, which would preserve an AS hull, but not the original design. (in my budget, and I end up with a boat I like and will use, but bad for history).
2. Do the restore, but back to mostly factory specs. Which would preserve the hull, and keep the model. (Good for history, but bad for me (spend money, and not get what I want), so my least favorite choice).
3. Try to find another deckboat hull in my price range, stick my engine on it, and donate this hull to someone who would restore it back to original specs. (, Good for history, so-so for me because I would then have to possibly re-do this hull as well, or it wouldn't be exactly what I want).
or a temporary reprieve:
4. Keep using the Xscape as-is, until the transom goes bad (its already water logged), while saving up money to figure something else out, or making one of the above choices.

SO your thoughts and opinions??

Thanks

Num[/size]

December 09, 2014, 09:43:34 AM
Reply #1

Capt. Bob

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 6445
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 09:43:34 AM »
My opinion:

Don't waste your time, money and energy restoring a boat that isn't what you want.

Again, don't waste your time, money and energy trying to made it something it wasn't intended to be.

Don't worry about "Aqua History", the boat hull really only has true meaning to the one that owns it. It is indeed a model that we (I) haven't seen but that doesn't, in itself make it worth more than what anyone is willing to pay for it.

I'm not sure what your idea of a "deck boat" is. :scratch: Can you compare an Aqua model to what you are looking for because if not, then you need to shop another type/brand hull. That is your best bang for the buck in getting to where you want to be.

Example: I like the brand. I loved my CCP. I wanted a little more protection and storage in my greying years so rather than trying to rebuild my hull to achieve that goal, I bought a WAC. Even though I loved the CCP look, ride and speed, trying to rebuild it into something THAT model was not, was a waste of my resources. I looked for that same hull with a WAC cap (this model does exist). This would let me keep the hull design I liked and get the added space I wanted but had that model/type not existed, I would have shopped elsewhere.

Compromise? You bet. What boat isn't?

Knowing how you will use your boat over time is the most important element in deciding the type hull/model you will purchase.

Don't waste your time and money if it's not what you want. :idea:

Good luck. :thumleft:
]
Capt. Bob
1991 210 Walkaround
2018 Yamaha 150 4 Stroke
"Reef or Madness IV"

December 09, 2014, 10:14:38 AM
Reply #2

numlaar

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 10:14:38 AM »
Quote from: "Capt. Bob"
Don't worry about "Aqua History", the boat hull really only has true meaning to the one that owns it. It is indeed a model that we (I) haven't seen but that doesn't, in itself make it worth more than what anyone is willing to pay for it.
So in your opinion, would there be anyone that would want this hull for historical purposes based on its rarity?

Quote from: "Capt. Bob"
I'm not sure what your idea of a "deck boat" is. :scratch: Can you compare an Aqua model to what you are looking for because if not, then you need to shop another type/brand hull. That is your best bang for the buck in getting to where you want to be.
Well that's the thing.... to me a deckboat is just that, something like a Hurricane, or a Nauticstar, or a Southwind. Its basically an all purpose family sport/fishing boat that carries the full width of the beam all the way to the bow, but retains a v-hull design for speed/ride. So you can fish, you can tube/ski and haul lots of kids/people and crap around, usually in a 20ft. boat.

The problem is, even a used one of these types of boats (if you can find one, they are very popular) is 15k+. If you want to get into something with a newer engine on it then 20k+(even then you are still talking probably 5-10 years old). I just don't have that kind of money to spend on a boat. Most of the older used ones out there are the hurricane hulls which still use plywood for the decks (/boggle), which means that even at that price, since they are already 10+ years old,  I'm probably looking at a rebuild soon anyways which seems dumb to me.

As for comparing it to an aqua model, no there isn't one. The Xscape is actually the closest model I could find, and part of the reason I bought it (again I got it CHEAP, 800 bucks). My very first boat was an old 1975 AS 170. I loved it. Rode great, did everything I needed at the time, but would be too small for me now, and have nowhere near the seating I need. I really like the lines on the Xscape, I like the deep vee, I like the bowrider part, and the self draining, etc. It really is "almost" what I want... its just too narrow in the front, and would need the platform on the back to open up the inside a bit.

Quote from: "Capt. Bob"
Compromise? You bet. What boat isn't?
hehe that's the problem, I don't want to compromise! I need a boat that can seat 8 people, run on a single outboard, have a built in cooler, plus livewell for fishing, even the brand new deck boats (35k+) all have something I don't like about them. That's why I was thinking of rebuilding the Xscape into exactly what I want.

Quote from: "Capt. Bob"
Knowing how you will use your boat over time is the most important element in deciding the type hull/model you will purchase.

Don't waste your time and money if it's not what you want. :idea:

Good luck. :thumleft:
Thanks for all the tips as usual CB.

So let me ask this instead then...

If I were to cut up the Xscape to turn it into exactly what I want, would the AS community want my head? lol

December 09, 2014, 11:14:10 AM
Reply #3

gman 82 aquasport

  • Information Offline
  • Master Rebuilder
  • Posts: 594
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 11:14:10 AM »
A big NO would be the answer :thumright: If you were to see the way I cut and re-fashioned my 82 19-6 and no one gave me any grief or hard time, just made the boat what I needed it to be, maintained the hull( exception being adding a anchor pulpit) and made the rest to suit my needs.. The rebuild part will try you at times but with some help and rebuild info gotten off of here you should be ok to go, if that's the route you want to take. :salut:
1982 19-6 Osprey
1992 Johnson 150
"THERAPY"
Member # 2331

December 09, 2014, 11:37:37 AM
Reply #4

numlaar

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2014, 11:37:37 AM »
Quote from: "gman 82 aquasport"
A big NO would be the answer :thumright: If you were to see the way I cut and re-fashioned my 82 19-6 and no one gave me any grief or hard time, just made the boat what I needed it to be, maintained the hull( exception being adding a anchor pulpit) and made the rest to suit my needs.. The rebuild part will try you at times but with some help and rebuild info gotten off of here you should be ok to go, if that's the route you want to take. :salut:

Well that's good to know!

My dad has a 63' split window corvette that's been converted to a racecar... he get's bashed on it constantly by the corvette community, but he has to explain, that he wasn't the one who cut it up... it was an original racecar from the 60's (one of only about 10 or so), and was like that when he got it. All he did was restore it to its full racing status (and continues to race it to this day). Once he explains it, they slack off, but some people have gotten down right nasty with him over it.

Kinda funny.

December 09, 2014, 11:40:28 AM
Reply #5

gran398

  • Information Offline
  • Purgatory
  • Posts: 7440
    • http://www.ascottrhodes.com
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2014, 11:40:28 AM »
Exactly, don't worry about the "history" part. Heck, the first aircraft carrier was a deck boat built on a battleship!

So if you want to build a deck boat AS, go for it! :thumright:

And if you do that, do the whole thing...transom included :salut:

December 09, 2014, 11:52:32 AM
Reply #6

GoneFission

  • Information Offline
  • Mechanical Master
  • Posts: 3479
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2014, 11:52:32 AM »
Go buy this for $1500 and start off with a boat that's more like what you want in the end:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/22FT-HARRIS-DEC ... Motorboats
Cap'n John
1980 22-2 CCP
Mercury 200 Optimax 
ASPA0345M80I
"Gone Fission"
ClassicAquasport Member #209


December 09, 2014, 11:58:13 AM
Reply #7

numlaar

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2014, 11:58:13 AM »
Quote from: "GoneFission"
Go buy this for $1500 and start off with a boat that's more like what you want in the end:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/22FT-HARRIS-DEC ... Motorboats


Good god is that thing ugly! hehehe

Yeah that is one of the originals, when the industry was just starting to get into deckboats... basically it was a pontoon boat with a fiberglass hull. I cant even imagine how that thing would ride.

Thanks but have to pass on that one.  ;)

December 09, 2014, 12:19:32 PM
Reply #8

Capt. Bob

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 6445
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2014, 12:19:32 PM »
OK,

You are limited with the existing beam as to how "rounded" you can make it. Of course you can remove the cap and redesign another or......

You could keep the cap, remove the port side console and put a full bracket on back. You would have a "side console" model but you may need to re-rig for the bracket/platform due to control cable lengths.

A full transom rebuild (could still remain open but raised to mount the bracket at the right height for the 25" shaft) to fully handle the larger motor and tie into the stringers.

Back to back seating at the helm, cooler seating on the port side where you removed the console, retain the front seating, and possibly the rear jump seats should get you to 8 soles on board.

Place the live well on the starboard side of the platform to keep as much cockpit space as possible and build in below deck storage on the port side under the above deck cooler/seating.

Batteries moved to port side storage will need bigger cables but also help offset weight from bigger motor moved 26" to the rear.

Nice project in my younger days but still $$$$$$$$.

Good luck.

Edit: Forget the bracket/platform and remove the rear jump seats (got to move batts now) and the splash well guard. This will give you more cockpit space and save you coin (wire is cheaper than a bracket).

Use Gulp bait. :idea:
]
Capt. Bob
1991 210 Walkaround
2018 Yamaha 150 4 Stroke
"Reef or Madness IV"

December 09, 2014, 12:35:57 PM
Reply #9

numlaar

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2014, 12:35:57 PM »
Quote from: "Capt. Bob"
OK,

You are limited with the existing beam as to how "rounded" you can make it. Of course you can remove the cap and redesign another or......

You could keep the cap, remove the port side console and put a full bracket on back. You would have a "side console" model but you may need to re-rig for the bracket/platform due to control cable lengths.

A full transom rebuild (could still remain open but raised to mount the bracket at the right height for the 25" shaft) to fully handle the larger motor and tie into the stringers.

Back to back seating at the helm, cooler seating on the port side where you removed the console, retain the front seating, and possibly the rear jump seats should get you to 8 soles on board.

Place the live well on the starboard side of the platform to keep as much cockpit space as possible and build in below deck storage on the port side under the above deck cooler/seating.

Batteries moved to port side storage will need bigger cables but also help offset weight from bigger motor moved 26" to the rear.

Nice project in my younger days but still $$$$$$$$.

Good luck.

Edit: Forget the bracket/platform and remove the rear jump seats (got to move batts now) and the splash well guard. This will give you more cockpit space and save you coin (wire is cheaper than a bracket).

Use Gulp bait. :idea:


Thanks!

So how much do you think for that $$$$$$ ? ;)

Here is my breakdown: (very, very rough figures and mostly guesstimates off the top of my head while at work). I have done a lot of research and have better figures at home
500.00 3/8" coosa for deck replacement (2pcs.)(I don't like nidacore for the holes)
600.00 3/4" coosa for transom (1piece)
1000.00 Gel coat, resin, glass
500.00 new cables/rigging/move batteries
2500.00 integrated fiberglass outboard bracket, with one livewell, and ladder
1000.00 Incidentals and things missed

6100.00 total

(thousand bucks over budget)

That sound about right?

as for the edit on gulp, I use that now! lol, I need the livewell for the fish I intend to catch! ;)

December 09, 2014, 01:20:13 PM
Reply #10

Capt. Bob

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 6445
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2014, 01:20:13 PM »
I make my living these days with costs estimates so I can't guess but I still do... :?

First, assuming you're fairly close, double the bottom line for budget purposes. :idea:

Marine ply is less costly if I remember correctly but the rebuild heads can chime in.

Good tinned battery cable, properly sized with connections for same will run $300 more or less.

Do you have hydraulic steering?

Trailer OK (tires/springs/lights)?

Seating?

Electrical (wires/switches/lights)?

Plumbing (pumps/thru hulls/hose)?

Any additional/any electronics/VHF/stereo/GPS/sounder?

Remember, no matter what anyone tells you, you need to go on the assumption that whenever you remove/repair/replace anything on an old hull, you will always find something else to repair/re-new/bitch about/spend MORE money to fix.

Not a pessimist but rather a realist.

Good luck.
]
Capt. Bob
1991 210 Walkaround
2018 Yamaha 150 4 Stroke
"Reef or Madness IV"

December 09, 2014, 01:33:54 PM
Reply #11

numlaar

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2014, 01:33:54 PM »
Quote from: "Capt. Bob"
I make my living these days with costs estimates so I can't guess but I still do... :?

First, assuming you're fairly close, double the bottom line for budget purposes. :idea:

Marine ply is less costly if I remember correctly but the rebuild heads can chime in.

Good tinned battery cable, properly sized with connections for same will run $300 more or less.

Do you have hydraulic steering?

Trailer OK (tires/springs/lights)?

Seating?

Electrical (wires/switches/lights)?

Plumbing (pumps/thru hulls/hose)?

Any additional/any electronics/VHF/stereo/GPS/sounder?

Remember, no matter what anyone tells you, you need to go on the assumption that whenever you remove/repair/replace anything on an old hull, you will always find something else to repair/re-new/bitch about/spend MORE money to fix.

Not a pessimist but rather a realist.

Good luck.

Oh I am a realist too... And I have done complete rebuilds before... but I do NOT want to use plywood. Period. I plan on this pretty much being my last boat, so its going to have to be done right.
Answer your questions:
No,  Cable steering
Trailer: New Springs, Axle, lights, wiring, and new lengthened tongue (old one was 6ft, new one is 8ft)
Seating: Have all new seating already, but would need to have some cushions made for the bow
Electrical: All new, fuse boxes, tinned wire, all new switches, all new gauges. (already done)
plumbing: all new pumps already, new thru hulls, etc. Would need just a couple for any new bait/livewells being done.
Electronics: Already done, new stereo, new VHF, just need a GPS which is already on my xmas list.

As for the last comment, so much yes. Hehe I always find things to fix or make better when working on something.

December 09, 2014, 01:59:28 PM
Reply #12

wingtime

  • Information Offline
  • Posts: 3581
    • http://50newtmotorclub.shutterfly.com/
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2014, 01:59:28 PM »
I'd just look around for what you want.  You'll spend much more time and money rebuilding your Xscape then you think.  I'd say double or triple the time and money you are estimating.  And when your done with it you will never get your money back out of it.

I'm sure you could find a good used deck boat hull hanging around the bay area.  This is the off season so its a good time to be looking.  Heck maybe you can find a boat with a bad motor of something.  In the mean time just have fun running the Xscape.
1998 Explorer w/ Etec 250


1987 170 w/ Evinrude 90

December 09, 2014, 02:36:56 PM
Reply #13

gran398

  • Information Offline
  • Purgatory
  • Posts: 7440
    • http://www.ascottrhodes.com
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2014, 02:36:56 PM »
I'm with Bruce on the money. Take that estimate and at least double it. Don't forget there are A LOT of other things involved...lights, rigging, electrical, on and on. Then as he aptly notes, you'll have a boat which will be extremely difficult to liquidate when the time comes, and for certain at a big loss.

If on the other hand you're cool with that...and want something unique without regard to value...go for it. Watched a show last night about Christmas lights....money was no object, they had hundreds of thousands in those displays.

December 09, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
Reply #14

gman 82 aquasport

  • Information Offline
  • Master Rebuilder
  • Posts: 594
Re: To cut up, or not to cut up, that is the question!
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 02:43:19 PM »
Hate to say it and hope the Mrs. don't see it but my rebuild using wood and no bracket, glass, resin, wiring(all new including battery cables) pumps, upholstery, gauges, lights etc. Paint , no gelcoating and I had over 7k in cost alone , not to mention hours, but I would do it again if it was a hull I just had to have. :thumright: This didn't include the motor :(
1982 19-6 Osprey
1992 Johnson 150
"THERAPY"
Member # 2331

 


SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal