Kate's 1974 222 Rebuild

[Aquasport Commodore]

Kate, Nidacore for the transom won't work. You need Coosa or the like. You can use the Nidacore for the decking it will work great and you can use 3/4 in and be fine. Your clean up work is great keep the pics coming. And as for the love of old boats, I get the disease and have 4 right now.

[Blue Agave]

X3 - do not use Nidacore for the transom.

[KlassyKate]

Thanks for the insight... Looks like I'm back to the coosa! I've seen nida core used for tea sons, but it must have been the pour-in. That's why this is all a learning process!

Craig - thanks for the tip with the 1x2. I'll try and get that set up tomorrow. I've got a spare 13' Whaler sitting around - it's a 1966 that I picked up cheap and needs some fiberglass repair and some paint. With buying this coosa board I'm going to need the extra funds!

I'm planning on trying to trace up the template for the transom tomorrow using cardboard. Any special considerations I should take? I got the hull square to less than an 1/8".

[Aquasport Commodore]

If you are going full transom and want the top to have a curve in it, you can use a 8' price of 1/2 pvc pipe. Just attach at the hull sides and lift up in the middle till you have it where you like it. Then trace the line it makes.  As for making the template, put up the cardboard on the outside and trace from outside. Cut on the line and it will fit inside the hull without issue.

[gran398]

If you are going full transom and want the top to have a curve in it, you can use a 8' price of 1/2 pvc pipe. Just attach at the hull sides and lift up in the middle till you have it where you like it. Then trace the line it makes.  As for making the template, put up the cardboard on the outside and trace from outside. Cut on the line and it will fit inside the hull without issue.

[CLM65]

I've got a spare 13' Whaler sitting around - it's a 1966 that I picked up cheap and needs some fiberglass repair and some paint.

Wow, that is tempting!  But I don't think the wife will let me have another project boat in the yard.  It was hard enough getting permission for the one I currently have.  If things change, I'll let you know....

[Blue Agave]

I've got a spare 13' Whaler sitting around - it's a 1966 that I picked up cheap and needs some fiberglass repair and some paint.

I would entertain acquiring your spare whaler.  I have sent you a PM and would be interested in discussing.

[KlassyKate]

Had the day off on Wednesday and started getting some supplies for the transom. Got some melamine panels, posts, and carriage bolts to make a press for the transom once I've got it in there. Stopped by the local marine surplus store and talked to the guy about ordering some core for the - I don't remember what the brand was but I'm going to check back with him today and hopefully order that and a roll of 1708 and get a price on some 1.5 and 3/4 oz. With the holidays I don't know how much I can get done, but at least I can have some supplies to get started.

I had a little light left on Wednesday and got the transom template cut and ready...

Made a "cardboard sheet" out of boxes from work then clamped it to the hull and traced from the outside.


Cut out and ready to be trimmed and fitted.


Fit in nicely. Still need to put the curve onto the top, but ran out of hands and daylight.


Looks like my Christmas bonus is going to glass, composite, and resin. Could be worse  

[dburr]

To get a nice crown on the stern a batten of clear, 3/4 x 3/4 stock, pine/cedar or what ever else you have on hand and a few clamps will get you what you need.. To make life easy, (since it sounds like you are as normal as the rest of us and don't have that third, triple jointed double elbowed hand with eyes at the finger tips) from the outside you can fasten some short stock below the top of the cap on either sides of the stern with the ends sticking out past the sides of the stern.  These little pieces will serve as clamping sights for the batten.  The batten should be long enough to give a nice curve with no hard spots, when you clamp it in place you will see right away if something is wrong because it will just will not look right...

Be sure to have you template blank out of the way and take a good look at it from all sides, and focus on what you are trying to define.. Will this be the final level? If so then you have to make the template shorter to refelect the thickness of the deck or everything ends up about 5/8 to 3/4 higher then you have sighted and a sweet curve takes on a different radius then you planned.

How deep is the transom top going to be and are you going to extend the cockpit combing aft and around to match the crown? With a tall combing, a pronounced crown will look...... Well, some may like it be man does it unsettle my eye....  Also, with a deep transom top you will likely want a flatter crown because the deck will make the crown look more pronounced then it is, don't know why, it just happens. Once you get the batten in place, you can put some of you card board across it to give you an idea what the deck will look like and then move stuff around to make it all look right.
Take a little time with it and make sure you are satisfied, cause you're going to look at it for a LONG time time. 8)

When it is time to fit the core into place, close is good enough, you are not building a piano.  You will end up running a fillet around the edge so don't waste a lot of time and effort on a dead fit. You are working to an1/8 inch or less so I think I may have just stayed the obvious..  I am a fan of multiple thinner layers vice one thick one, makes for a stronger final product (as long as the bond is good) and is way easier to work with when by yourself.

As far as epoxy or esters? Epoxy is stronger and better secondary bond on "old" material the May not be "as clean as it was from the mold", no debate on that.  About a Brazilian boats have been built with both poly and vynalester resins. Poly has known/ proven water intrusion issues due to it's structure when cured. Vynalester and epoxy don't.  If the boat is going to be in the water more days then out, over time that might be an issue..  Since we are spending YOUR money, the consensus would likely be for the hull sides/bottom and high traffic interior surfaces, gelcoat over vynalester.

It is continuously said that gelcoat will not adhere to epoxy so don't plan on using gelcoat on epoxy.  Well, the guys at Gougeon Brothers (who are the manufacturers of West system) disagree as long as you prep their stuff correctly. I am the lone voice in the crowd on that and I have had both successes and failures (bad prep, I didn't take care of the blush as well as I thought) so talk to the guys at GB on that one.  

You are gonna be in the guide biz, you have been messing with boats a long time and I imagine you already know deep down what finish you want.  Scotty swears by gel coat (he'd do his truck in it if the Big Boss would let him) others swear by paint, it's all good Kate, gelcoat is tough and easy to fix. If you put it on thick enough, dock rash and the sports sinkers will not ding it up to quickly and too badly.

60s-70s Sport 13 then onto the 80s Sport 15... Probably the best production "kid" boat ever built.  Then someone had to "improve" it and make it the most henious looking thing afloat.  Progress....      

Glad to see you back and banging away!

[RickK]

I think "Shine" over on Bateau2.com has had success gelcoating over epoxy.  May have been the west system, not sure.

[Capt. Bob]

It is continuously said that gelcoat will not adhere to epoxy so don't plan on using gelcoat on epoxy.  Well, the guys at Gougeon Brothers (who are the manufacturers of West system) disagree as long as you prep their stuff correctly. I am the lone voice in the crowd on that and I have had both successes and failures (bad prep, I didn't take care of the blush as well as I thought) so talk to the guys at GB on that one.

Seems they do.
 
Gleaned from "Cruisers Forum"

"There is a common misconception, fueled by some gelcoat manufacturers and by some expensive failures in the field, that gelcoat will not bond to epoxy. Polyester resin bonds poorly in a secondary (mechanical) bonding situation which consequently makes epoxy the resin of choice for repairs. How can one be squared with the other?

The answer is surprisingly simple - gelcoat does bond to a properly cured and prepared epoxy surface. There are a couple issues to be aware of to have success making this repair. There are three situations that cause gelcoat to not cure over epoxy... all related to the hardener chemistry. Epoxy hardeners are basically a blend of amines, which can terminate the chain reaction of the radical molecule that is the basis of polyester (and vinylester) cure chemistry. So by carefully mixing, curing, and preparing of the epoxy so that there are no unreacted amines to interfere with the gelcoat cure, gelcoat bonds quite well to epoxy.

The first situation is undercured epoxy. Gelcoat applied to undercured epoxy will be in contact with unreacted amines and the cure will be halted.

The second situation is if the epoxy is mixed off ratio so that it is hardener rich, again leaving unreacted amines free to interfere.

Third is the issue of amine blush, commonly called blush. Blush is a surface phenomena that is a reaction of the amine molecules at the surface with the carbon dioxide in the air. It forms easiest in the presence of moisture, so working in cool, humid environments will maximize the formation of blush. Any amine hardener has the potential to blush, but it can be minimized by careful choices of amines in the formulation. In fact, WEST SYSTEM 207 Special coating hardener is one of the lowest blushing hardeners on the market and still maintains structural properties on par with our other hardeners. Regardless of chemistry, blush is very easily dealt with because it is water soluble. A simple wash with clear water removes the blush. No soap, no solvents. Then sand that washed surface with 80 grit paper to provide the gelcoat with sufficient key so it won't run. Be sure to use non-air inhibited gelcoat that has a paraffin wax added. Gelcoat is applied over epoxy on a routine basis everyday in boatyards that are aware of these issues."

Bruce Niederer, Technical Services West System Inc.

And for those who like a "fireside chat"
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/radio/ ... tPart1.mp3

[KlassyKate]

Working on selling our house, having my back go out, and some cold weather that I'm a pansy about have kept me away from working on this project. However, I've got some warmer days ahead and some time to get things going.

I decided to go with marine ply for the transom for reasons of cost and ease of availability. I got two sheets of 3/4" from Triton Marine in Homosassa for a total of $165 - great deal!

I'm hoping to get the rest of the materials needed for the transom build over the next few days. What is your list of essential items that I'll need? I have the wood so now all I need is... Thanks!

Also, what disk or flap wheel will be best for smoothing out the rest of the inside of the hull? I plan on putting one layer of (advice: 1708?) down to give some more strength.

[RickK]

Hi Kate - welcome back.
I use a 7" grinder (Harbor freight) and buy the 40 grit flap wheels - that'll tear it up, and you, if you're not careful.
You haven't mentioned whether you've decided on epoxy, vinylester or poly.  My $.02 is you want the hull to be the toughest you can get and that = epoxy.  If you're going to gelcoat the in and out you need to be cagey on how you transition from epoxy to poly so you can gelcoat.  I did the hull re-inforcement with epoxy and everything under the sole in epoxy to include the bottom of the sole material.  Then I switched to poly above.  Some have used only poly and had good results.  I chose epoxy because I may not grind down as well as a pro, so the epoxy covers me there.
Depending on the condition of the hull when you are done grinding it down, you may want to lay in two layers of 1708 or maybe 1808 and 1708.  Start on the hull sides and lay it 6" past where the chine meets the side. Next layer start 6" up the hull side and down through the center line of the hull and past it 6".  Let the one side harden, lightly grind where the overlap will be in the center bottom. Repeat the process that you did on the one side.  If you feel the hull is still too flimsy after the single layer (although there are two layers at all the "corners"), add another layer in the hull bottom. That might be where you want to use 1808 to get the torsional strength of the 45s in the 1708 and the 90s in the 1808.  Some studies say there is no benefit but while you're in there it certainly can't hurt - 10 yards is not a ton of money.


One thing I wish I had done was stick a 8" long 1" PVC pipe in the drain hole and then stuck it to the hull bottom with 5min epoxy.  Reason I say this is because by the time you add several layers of cloth and may on the inside of the transom and onto the hull bottom, then add the transom material, filet and tab that in with several layers of cloth you may have added almost a 1/2" of thickness to the hull in the overlap areas.  This overlapping will cause the drain to not be the lowest point anymore. If you glass over the pipe making it an integral part of the transom, notch the transom material around it and with all the tabbing going on, the pipe is still the lowest spot and you can grind it down at an angle to allow water in the bilge to get out and not sit in the hull because the transom build up is not 1/2 or more higher than the hull bottom.  I hope I explained that well enough.  Some people will cut a semi circle out of the transom material where the drain plug will be.  I still think after all the added layers in the hull, the drain will not be the lowest when you drill the new hole.


Coat the inside pieces of the transom with resin and let it kick.
You'll need 1708 and 3/4oz mat between the 2 layers of transom material - 1708 has mat on only one side, the 3/4oz will help other stuff stick to the 1708.  You'll also need to mix up some thickened resin with cabosil to peanut butter consistency and then trowel (1/4" notch) the "putty" between the layers.  Some people will drill a couple holes in the corners of the transom materials to stick wood dowels into to keep the pieces lined up as they harden.  Trowel the putty onto both insides of the transom, lay pre-wetout 1708 and mat onto one side and then press the other piece onto the stack.  Make sure you are doing this on a flat surface.  Drill the dowel holes, insert the dowels and then place every heavy thing you have onto the transom material to press it all together while it is hardening.
This is a link to a page of my rebuild and in the lower portion of the page you can see how I built up the inside of the transom - I used the same lam schedule as the link I gave you earlier on one of Eugene's rebuilds.
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=10101.15

[KlassyKate]

It's been several years since I've updated on this thread, but progress has finally been made! Career changes, moving, and other life events made me realize that this project was more than I had the time and the skills for, so I made the decision to hand it off to someone else to work on. I went with a local guy who used to work glass at Proline and he built her back up after my tear down. It took him much longer to get the boat (mostly) done, but it would have taken me even longer if I had to learn along the way in the minimal time that I had to work on her.

I ended up going full composite - 3/4" PVC board for stringers, transom, floor, and all backing in gunnels and casting deck. About 10 sheets of board, 60 gallons of resin, 25 gallons of acetone, 20 gallons of 2-part foam, 11 gallons of gelcoat, and who knows what other miscellaneous things finally got this boat back in my hands.

We hung a used Yamaha 200 HPDI on a Porta Bracket for power. I lucked into finding a "new" used bracket on Facebook even though it has more setback than I needed at 26" (gives 24" of vertical travel). But a deal is a deal and I had to get it. We floated her for the first time last weekend and she sat perfectly in the water and will hopefully remain self-bailing when she is fully loaded. Currently waiting on rub rail to be delivered and working on getting someone to fabricate a driving station. Once everything is in, the bottom paint will go on and she will be ready to rock and roll!

I do need some advice on hinges for the hatches up front... what do you have?

[mshugg]

Congratulations on getting her this close.  The boat looks awsome.  You may want to consider high quality stainless steel piano hinge for the hatches.  The advantage is that it is low profile without having to rout into the hatches. 

Gemlux also makes a variety of butt hinges that would work.  Many would require routing into the hatches, but they do offer some low profile thin cast hinges that might work without routing.  Since you’re already painted, not routing saves you a lot of work, and if you stay low profile like the piano hinge or low profile hinges, you won’t add a trip hazard.