Ok - I am stumped and need some help please - Pump Wiring

[Bergertime]

I was helping a friend install a new float switch over the last weekend so I though I would give my bilge pump a test since I never need to use it.. and thankful.  Anyway, went to test it at the helm switch and it did not turn on as it usually does.  Opened the hatch and reached down and tested the float switch and it worked....  Here is where I need some help and guidance.  Trouble shooting steps:

1) Removed all the old butt connectors and re-stripped the brown wire (pump +) and grey float switch wire.
2) Since float switch runs fine when manually tested I did not touch the always hot line that is the feeder to the float switch from the fuse box.
3) Tested the brown wire (pump +) by touching to the battery + terminal and pump runs fine.
4) Re-ran the ground wire off the bilge pump to the ground buss at stern. (All ground busses are new and in great shape.
5) Twisted the float switch output side (gray) to the brown bilge pump + wire and crimped to one side of a sealed butt connector.
6) Re-tested the float switch via the manual lever and the bilge runs fine.

Here comes the strange part that I need help with.

5) Located the supply wire (Thick Brown) at the stern that runs off the back of the helm switch panel and re-stripped.  Twisted on a butt connector but did not crimp and tested with a volt meter.  I was getting 12.8v on the other side of the connector.  However, when I push in the brown wire (pump +) that supplies the bilge alone or the bundle (bilge brown and float supply gray) the pump does not come on.  I am sure that the wire is hot (checked via volt meter) and obviously the switch at the helm is on so I am at a total loss...  I worked on it for over 2 hrs tonight, called a friend.  It's just not that complicated of a wiring situation..  Please help with suggestions or something I may have missed because this is driving me crazy!

Simple diagram on how i'm wired now whereby the bilge pump works fine off the float switch but not off the helm switch.

[gran398]

Your problem sounds like the helm switch/associated connections there/breaker or fuse. If the pump works on auto...it works. Bypass the switch on that dedicated line (jump straight to the + at the batt)  and see what you have. Switches are not infallible.

Also... the + on the auto should run straight to the batt, not a block. As best remember Rule recommends a 5A inline fuse.

Straight up from the pump, attached under deck, not laying on the tank top, etc., dry as possible.

[Bergertime]

I agree on the straight line wire to the batt. but I will tackle that on another day since it's working now.  I did run a jumper from the + buss under my helm directly to the brown supply wire which was disconnected from the switch and the result was the same.  Reads approx 12.8v at the stern but does not turn the pump on.  It just does not make sense.

[dbiscayne]

Could be that you've got a weak/corroded spot in the wire from the switch to the butt connector, it'll allow 12.8 volts through but won't handle the load of the pump.
Time to trouble shoot.  Can you supply the float switch with power from the helm switch, see if the float switch will still power up the pump.  I'll bet it won't.  Like gran said could be the switch or any of the items upstream of the butt connector.

[Bergertime]

Thanks dbiscayne,

I will wire a jumper from the switch over deck and back to the stern wiring and see if that works, I did not have enough wire at home last night to do this.  My guess is that it will work but I'll test anyway.  At least that will rule out or confirm issues with the existing wire which runs from helm to stern.  The specifications on the pump is a 9amp draw.  Is there a setting on my volt meter that will measure amps?  I am still new to electrical work and analysis although this type of wiring is straight forward to me.  Pic of the volt meter I am using below.

Bruce

[dbiscayne]

should draw fewer amps running dry.  I think the 9 amps is the fuse size, but will actually be between 4 and 7 amps to run the pump when its actually pumping water.  Have you got a 1500 pump?
http://store.waterpumpsupply.com/12vodcnosubi.html

this might be enough to explain your meter
http://www.ehow.com/how_6101228_use-cen ... meter.html

[Bergertime]

Yes - It's a Rule 1500 so 9A.  This only thing I can think of is when I stripped the brown wire (feed from helm switch) at the transom the wire was black not shiny copper like it's supposed to be.  I cut it back as far as I could (running out of extra) and then used a cleaner and some sand paper to remove as much of the oxidation / corrosion as I could.  Do you think this could be the problem even though I am getting 12.8v now at the end with the switch turned on?

Like I said, I am going to run a jumper from the helm switch and pos buss and that should give me my answer.  Just puzzled that it's not working even with the confim of voltage especially at the lower empty draw rate.

B

[seabob4]

Bruce,
So what you are saying is that when you stick your probe into the "helm feed" side of the butt connector, you get 12.8VDC, yet when you insert the brown wire from the pump in the other side you get "pump no worky"?  

Assuming the ground is good, do this.  Turn the switch off.  Actually crimp the butt (but don't shrink it).  Now you know you had 12.8 coming off the switch.  Turn the pump on and see what the voltage is.  If there is heavy resistance, this will show up as voltage drop.  You don't want to see anything below 11V.  Keep in mind, if the pump has some age on it, the windings in the motor will have corrosion in them as well, adding to the overall resistance of the circuit...

[CLM65]

I would also suggest jumpering the switch.  It is possible that the switch contacts are dirty/corroded and not making an adequate connection to carry the current.

And back on Scotty's comment on the fuse block - he is not suggesting that you run the wire directly from the float switch to the battery without any fuse protection.  You definitely want a fuse in there to provide protection when (not if) the switch or pump fails.  I made the mistake once of wiring an automatic bilge switch without a fuse.  Smelled something burning while running around the bay.  Opened the bilge hatch to find the bilge pump wire glowing red, its insulation melted off, and the negative battery cable halfway burned through.  Learned my lesson that day.  So, I'm not sure how you interpreted Scotty's post, but he is saying you need to have an inline fuse.

[gran398]

Good stuff.

Yep that is correct, and see now you need a 9 Amp fuse. The 5A are for the smaller bilge and livewell pumps, guess the 3/4 inch models.

[Bergertime]

Yea - I will install an inline fuse for the always hot leg that supplies the pump (a project for another day).  Its currently fused but not dedicated just to the float switch.

Bob - Yes, when I insert the brown wire (from helm) into say the left side of the butt connector and test the voltage on the right with my probe I read ~12.8v.  Then, when I insert the twisted combination (supply from float switch & + wire to pump) to the right side of the connector and crimp the pump does not come on.  However, when I reach down and manually lift the float switch the pump activates as needed.   I know I keep saying it but it's the damnedest thing...  Volt meter reads 12.8v but nothing happens.  So counter intuitive and frustrating as I have gone over it over and over and over  

I purchased 50ft of wire today at lunch.  I am going to make a long jumper and run it directly off the + buss under my helm and then start from there.  It's gotta be something with the brown supply wire from the helm.  There is no other plausible explanation, at least that I know of...  I would be interested in hearing anyone else’s thoughts beyond what’s been mentioned.

B

[Capt. Bob]

It is safe to assume you touched the two brown wires together sans the butt connector and the gray (float switch) wire and the pump does not run.

Also, is it safe to assume you have a three position bilge pump switch i.e. ON-OFF-AUTO?

[seabob4]

No CB, only a ON/OFF.  We let the float do the "auto" thing.  Frankly I see no point in having a 3-way switch when the float itself is already an "auto" switch.

Bruce, you checked for voltage drop, correct?  In other words, you're saying with the helm switch on, on both sides of the butt you have 12.8V.  If so, you are losing voltage somewhere.  Could be the brown wire where it enters the pump body.  Rule 1500, the wires are protected by a rubber grommet/seal where they enter the pump, correct?  Try giving them a wiggle while the switch is on.  Worth a try...

[CLM65]

Bob,

According to the sketch in the first post, the same brown wire to the pump is used for the auto and manual functions, so that would seem to rule out a problem with the pump end of it (although a little wiggle never hurts).

I would suggest disconnecting the wires from the helm switch and touching them together, or holding a jumper between them.  I've had switches make contact and provide a voltage reading without load, but not be able to drive a device.  Easy check anyway.

[seabob4]

That was my thinking on the "wiggle".  since Bruce may be manipulating (read that "moving") the wires a bit, there MAY, and that's a long shot, be a break there to the point where he has intermittant contact.

It's sumpin simple, I guaranty it...