Help - 175 none of the toggle switches are working

[kchaudha]

Hopefully Seabob or someone else who knows the wiring on these boats can help me out.
None of my toggle switches are working... and the bilge pump isn't turning on.  Could live without the other items temporarily but it would be nice to have a working bilge pump :)
Everything else seems to be good, all gauges seem to be ok, etc.
Not sure what I could have done here - all the pumps were working in the fall when I winterized.  I must have loosened a wire or something in the battery removal/installation process.
Any insight for troubleshooting would be awesome - I have tried to look at the wiring and figure it out but it sure is confusing under there!  Ran in to one fuse coming off the battery switch and that one seems ok.

[RickK]

Sounds like you may have forgot to land the positive or negative or both to the battery that feeds your buss bar that the switches are connected to.
Check that and I'm sure you'll see some wires hanging that shouldn't be.

[Georgie]

In the absence of any obviously disconnected wires, please also remove, clean, and retighten ALL your battery cables.  You'd be surprised how many malfunctions can come from just a mildly loose/corroded/or poorly connected battery cable.  Not knowing your wiring setup, but assuming you have a bus bar gathering some/all your positive or negative leads, check the connections of the primary red and black wires going to or from the bar(s) respectively.  Post back results!  

[John Jones]

Sounds like you may have forgot to land the positive or negative or both to the battery that feeds your buss bar that the switches are connected to.
Check that and I'm sure you'll see some wires hanging that shouldn't be.

Yep.  Look for a disconnected wire around the batteries.  It will be much smaller than the battery cables.

[wingtime]

There may also be a main breaker or fuse that feeds the buss for your switch panel.  I would guess it should be located somewhere near your battery switch.

[Capt. Bob]

OK,
Since you removed the batteries for winter storage and when you reinstalled them the switch panel now has a negative function, you may have indeed missed a wire to the buss but....

In my 84 CCP and in my 91 WAC, the main feed from the battery switch to the main buss panel has two things you also want to check.

First, keep in mind your wiring may not have the "second check" as it is much newer than mine so....

Check one is the main inline fuse/breaker (as WT note above) from the switch to the buss. If I read you post correctly, you may have found and checked this so...

Look at the photo below and I describe something else that "might" have failed.


This is a rewiring/relocation of my current 1991 WAC. The main buss feed that leaves the battery switch is fused (as described above like yours) and then works its way to the main buss. That buss is located in this photo just to the right of center. There is a large black connector obstructing the individual feeds from this buss. The line from the switch is connected on the right end and you can see the "old school" glass fuses to the left. One of those fused feeds leaves the buss and is the feed for my switch panel seen located above and to the left of the buss in the photo. So what does this mean?

If the fuse (feeding the panel) "blows" for whatever reason, I would lose power to my switch panel but still have power in other areas.

I state this knowing I cannot tell how the wiring is in your 175. It is meant as just another spot to look. It could very well be that this arrangement is so antiquated that it no longer exist on your newer craft.

Good luck in the gremlin hunt.

[kchaudha]

Ok, did some more poking around can't see any loose wires.   I have the main big feeds to pos/neg posts of the battery and two small feeds to small neg post of battery.
Checked inline fuse coming from the battery switch again and even replaced it for good measure (even though it looked fine).  Still no luck.   This same line has a wire-wire butt connector that came apart at the end of the season... I now redid it once again on the chance that I did a bad job the first time... still no luck.
I have checked a bunch of the connections on the main bus as well but all seems ok and no other burnt fuses.
Too many wires!  I wish I knew which one was feeding the toggle switches so I could focus on that.  Although I guess there could also be a short somewhere else?  In which case, this is really going to be a gremlin search!

[wingtime]

Since his boat is a 1998 model I wonder if he has the "Big Blue Connector" problem?  

Do you have a volt meter or a test light?  I'd gain access to the back of your breaker/fuses for the toggle switches.  There should be a 8ga or so red wire feeding the hot side of all those breakers.  Check for voltage on the first breaker in the chain. (I doubt you'll find any) However you could find the spade connectors are corroded causing the problem.  Then follow that large wire back into the harness.  You may find a big blue connector where your switch panel plugs into the harness... if you do.... wiggle that and check for voltage on either side of the plug.

[kchaudha]

Some pics of my wiring to make it clearer (maybe!)
Also - I have my stereo and radio attached via the buss and they are working fine.  Only items controlled via the toggle switches are out of commission.

Two inline fuses in the setup in addition to the spade fuses on the buss.  One of the inlines is for the radio.  The other is on the small red wire coming out the bottom of the battery switch. (off the right side of the switch in the sideways pic below).  I have been under the assumption that this line directly off the switch is what powers the toggles and associated functions.  Can anyone confirm this setup?

I wonder if it is worth unscrewing the instrument/toggle panel and seeing if something got disconnected there?

[RickK]

I agree with Bruce - put a meter on it and see what voltage you're getting. Has to be something simple.

[Capt. Bob]

OK,
Now we got pics so...
So let's start here first.

Middle pic: Red wire on fuse panel with yellow butt connector. Where does that terminate? Is that the same wire exiting the "Perko" switch at the top (between the R & k)? It appears to these tired eyes to be two different gauge wires. Does that wire have an in-line fuse also?

Aside: I'd clean up that ground buss real good while I was working on the switch panel gremlin.

Can you get a pic of the back side of the toggle switch panel? There will be a wire (hopefully red) that should lead back to that fuse panel in the middle pic. Power to the panel needs to run through the "Perko" switch so it receives power in the "on" position only (stating the obvious). It could indeed run that way but your pics, while very clear(in focus) don't give a field of view to see where that bottom wire is headed. Standard procedure would have the red wire connected to the "on" post (of your style switch). That allows power to run to the motor (large gauge, red battery wire) itself and feed the main distribution buss with the smaller gauge, red wire. That wire should have an in-line fused connector as close to the "Perko" switch for protection of the feed to the main buss. From the buss the toggle panel would receive its feed (power). There should be no need to fuse that line (although mine is, again belt and suspenders). You should be able to see that feed to the toggle panel.

Again, clean that ground buss!

[wingtime]

Check for voltage on the red wire with the yellow connector on it Capt Bob is talking about. I would say based on the sizes of the fuses that fuse panel us for switched accessories only and not you toggle switches.  Get us a pic of your switch panel to be sure.

[gran398]

OK,
Now we got pics so...
So let's start here first.

Middle pic: Red wire on fuse panel with yellow butt connector. Where does that terminate? Is that the same wire exiting the "Perko" switch at the top (between the R & k)? It appears to these tired eyes to be two different gauge wires. Does that wire have an in-line fuse also?

Aside: I'd clean up that ground buss real good while I was working on the switch panel gremlin.

Can you get a pic of the back side of the toggle switch panel? There will be a wire (hopefully red) that should lead back to that fuse panel in the middle pic. Power to the panel needs to run through the "Perko" switch so it receives power in the "on" position only (stating the obvious). It could indeed run that way but your pics, while very clear(in focus) don't give a field of view to see where that bottom wire is headed. Standard procedure would have the red wire connected to the "on" post (of your style switch). That allows power to run to the motor (large gauge, red battery wire) itself and feed the main distribution buss with the smaller gauge, red wire. That wire should have an in-line fused connector as close to the "Perko" switch for protection of the feed to the main buss. From the buss the toggle panel would receive its feed (power). There should be no need to fuse that line (although mine is, again belt and suspenders). You should be able to see that feed to the toggle panel.

Again, clean that ground buss!

Agree.

The circuit tester is your friend. Somewhere on the end run to that panel she's gone dead....Pretty much has to be a shot connection/breaker/fuse.

Even a corroded multi-strand wire will carry enough voltage to get a reading.

[kchaudha]

OK,
Now we got pics so...
So let's start here first.

Middle pic: Red wire on fuse panel with yellow butt connector. Where does that terminate? Is that the same wire exiting the "Perko" switch at the top (between the R & k)? It appears to these tired eyes to be two different gauge wires. Does that wire have an in-line fuse also?

Aside: I'd clean up that ground buss real good while I was working on the switch panel gremlin.

Can you get a pic of the back side of the toggle switch panel? There will be a wire (hopefully red) that should lead back to that fuse panel in the middle pic. Power to the panel needs to run through the "Perko" switch so it receives power in the "on" position only (stating the obvious). It could indeed run that way but your pics, while very clear(in focus) don't give a field of view to see where that bottom wire is headed. Standard procedure would have the red wire connected to the "on" post (of your style switch). That allows power to run to the motor (large gauge, red battery wire) itself and feed the main distribution buss with the smaller gauge, red wire. That wire should have an in-line fused connector as close to the "Perko" switch for protection of the feed to the main buss. From the buss the toggle panel would receive its feed (power). There should be no need to fuse that line (although mine is, again belt and suspenders). You should be able to see that feed to the toggle panel.

Again, clean that ground buss!

Middle pic red wire does indeed go to perko switch (the pic is deceiving, it is one wire, same gauge).  No inline fuse on this line.  Right above where this hits the buss, are the lines coming in for the stereo and radio (which are working fine).
The red wire coming down off the perko is the one that has the inline fuse and it goes in to the wiring bundle and appears to go up towards the toggle panel.   Goes with the bundle anyway..I'd have to unbundle to trace it up.
Access to that panel is tough for my big head but I tried to take a couple pics (left to right).  Not sure that this is useful - it was tough to focus back on the toggle side.   If I knew where the feed attaches then I could focus on looking there.
On the way back from the toggle panel, it seems like I have black wires coming directly to the battery.  I could be wrong of course but I don't think my buss in involved in the circuit to the toggle panel.  I hope I am wrong though because that might be an easier solution.
 

[Georgie]

KC,

Based on your description of the problem and the photos you posted it seems like your stereo and radio are still operating properly and the power for both comes directly from the one fuse block which I must presume also feeds the toggle switches?  This means your fuse block is receiving power.  Therefore, if all your toggles went bad at once, the only two possible options are disconnects (short circuit, green disease, poor connection, etc.) either in any common hot leads which run from the fuse block towards the toggles, or a failed common ground specific to the toggle circuits.

Also, looking at your fuse block, you only have four active fuses.  Do you have more than four toggles?  If so, then one of the wires running from the fuse block probably feeds multiple toggle switches.  The junction where this wire splits to feed multiple toggles could very likely be your culprit.  

Hate to say it, but you may need to start un-bundling your wiring to trace it all if these suggestions don't work.   If you have a meter, you can also try testing continuity from your toggles to the corresponding fuses in the panel.   The fault may reveal itself that way.

Good luck,