Bad Gas

[pzart]

I winterize my boat every november and open it in march. My tank is usually about 1/2 full between 80 and 90 gals. of ethanol fuel. I double dose it with StaBil and have no problems I usually take her out for a run without adding gas and before I change plugs and she runs fine. The problem is more likely the hoses being eaten away by the ethanol and not enough stabilizer when you winterize.Get some gas out of the tank in a clear bottle make sure you get it from the bottom of the tank without rocking the boat all around let it settle if it seperates you will need to drain off the rest until it does not seperate anymore and you will be good to go. One more thing do not add any of those tank cleaners or you will have more problems and dont use any treatments with any kind of alcohol in it.

Now that's the kind of information I am talking about, here we have a northern member who lets his ethanol fuel set for the winter.....us Florida members rarely let ours set that long......with basically no troubles or issues.....I like it....hand pump off the separated crap on the bottom and move on. Maybe we are over thinking this old ethanol fuel issue. Thanks for your input Double Trouble :)

[pzart]

Ethanol is a tank cleaner!     It will break down any old varnish built up in your fuel system left over from old non ethanol fuel.  The varnish will show up as tiny golden brown flakes in your fuel filter.    Don't get avgas it is LOADED with lead!  Yes they call it 100 Low Lead but don't let the name fool you it has four times the lead in it than the old 80 octane avgas.  It is a very stabil fuel that stores well but I'd guess your gonna pay $6 or more per gallon for it.  Couldn't you find a non ethanol source on Pure gas.org?

That explains why the 31 year old aluminum gas tank on my WellCraft viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10494 was so clean and perfect on the inside, my PO always used ethanol and said he never had any issues, which is why I had it repaired instead of replaced....saving big bucks to buy gas later :)

[gran398]

He's on Long Island, and according to the map, there isn't a non-eth station on all of Long Island. And it is a long island.

The closest one is on SR 27 near Linden. And that looks like a 2 hour trip one way....

http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

[Georgie]

Andy,

What year is that engine of yours? mid '90's? Carbureted I presume since it's a SPL model?  Yes, paying extra for pure fuel is always the best option, but those generations of carbureted OMC engines really did fine with moderate amounts of ethanol (my OEM/factory manuals even state that 10% is fine) and tended to be reliable if the rest of the fuel system wasn't causing problems, but particulates and water coming from degraded fuel or fuel lines definitely constitute "problems" .  :(     Honestly, you have a pretty new boat.  If you have no reason to expect the tank itself to be corroded or ruined (perhaps it's even plastic in which case it's almost CERTAIN to be ok), then I wouldn't prematurely limit yourself by switching to a 6 gal deck tank.  Just swich out your hoses to newer ethanol resistant stuff, pump out the tank itself to see what is actually in there, replace or upgrade your fuel filter, and get it back in operation the way it was intended.  A 6 gal tank on the deck of a 16.5' boat really takes up storage or standing space, and it just seems foolish to go that route if the factory tank is not ruined.  The hoses and new filters will certainly cost less than a deck tank.  

The other fuel maintenance concept that I really subscribe to for these older engines relates to storage/winterizing.  There are two simple options in my book:  Option 1)fill the ENTIRE tank and treat with stabilizer (filling the tank leaves no space for air to circulate and moisture to condense and bind with the ethanol...you can also plug your air vent for the winter to make sure there's no air exchange while it sits), or Option 2) use almost ALL of your fuel, treat the little that's left before winterizing, and just plan on diluting any watery or phase separated old fuel each spring with a full tank of good, fresh ethanol free fuel to start each season.  The very small amount of old stuff mixed in generally won't be enough to ruin all the good new fuel or cause any problems with the engine.  Either which way, I highly recommend installing a nice racor fuel filter/separator with clear bowl/drain plug on the bottom if you don't have one arleady.  It greatly improves your ability to diagnose or fix fuel related issues.

2 cents....

[126andy]

Ryan--The motor is a 1997--I pumped all of the gas out of the tank, even those the boat has a separate oil and and the fuel and oil mixes in the engine the old owner must have added oil to the gas besides. I was hearing from a lot of people that they didn't trust the oil and gas mixing in the motor so they always mix oil with there gas so they don't blow up their motor. Now that I have all the old gas from the tank I'm leaning towards not adding any oil to the gas I'm thinking that maybe that had a lot to do with my problem maybe the oil and gas separated too. I don't see why not to trust the separate oil tank because if they werent too reliable Johnson wouldn't have made the motors that way. They do have me a little concerned though and now I don't know what to do, if a little oil in the gas can save a motor if the pump stops working maybe I should just keep doing it.
I went to that pure gas site and saw nothing on Long Island but I am going to keep asking around.

[Capt. Bob]

Now that's the kind of information I am talking about, here we have a northern member who lets his ethanol fuel set for the winter.....us Florida members rarely let ours set that long......with basically no troubles or issues.....I like it....hand pump off the separated crap on the bottom and move on. Maybe we are over thinking this old ethanol fuel issue.

OK, let's over-think just a little more.

Pretend DT doesn't add Stabil. Also pretend that he experiences a mild off season (average temp 40 F).

80 Gals on board. 10% ethanol (8 gals).  If a gallon of E-10 fuel were to absorb about 3.5 teaspoons (@ 40 F) per gallon before separation, and if I did the math right (lotta IFs), there would be about three tall boys of water in the fuel along with the 8 gals of ethanol. There could be additional water that the ethanol couldn't absorb but we'll say no, for this example.

We remove the fuel sender/gauge unit (hope it doesn't look like some of the one's we've seen here lately :o ) and start pumping at the very bottom. To be safe we use DT's site method (glass jar) and my math   and find we remove about 8.5 gals (always good to allow room for error ) and come up with just gas in the jar.

OK now what do we do?

If DT had put 91 octane fuel in to begin with, the engine would probably run OK but if it was 87 to begin with, we need to add something to bring up the octane lost by the ethanol removal. We need to get 8 gals of ethanol from the still out back and pour in in the tank. There in lies the rub. It takes about 26 lbs of corn per ethanol gallon(fuel grade not drinkin'). Better start the still up right after Christmas.

[Capt. Bob]

They do have me a little concerned though and now I don't know what to do, if a little oil in the gas can save a motor if the pump stops working maybe I should just keep doing it.

Andy, do or don't.
That is, either pre mix your fuel or use the VRO (oil injection) on the motor but not both.
How much oil do you mix with the gas?
I assume you add oil to the tank when needed.

Just adding "a little" oil to the gas will not protect the motor should the VRO fail. Adding the right amount to prevent failure will just force you to change plugs way more often and cost you money. Using both options works when breaking in a new or just rebuilt motor but is not needed otherwise. Folks who don't trust the factory setups disconnect them and premix.

Good luck.

[Georgie]

OMC really scared a bunch of people (and earned quite a bad rap) with their first generation of variable rate oil pumps in the late 80's.  From what I've read, the vast majority of the failures that blew up powerheads occured as a result of the VRO1 but the failure incidences decreased dramatically with the VRO2 and later versions (up until the FICHT fuel injection fiasco in the late 90's).  Your engine was made 10 years later after all the bugs were more or less worked out of the VRO system.  If you feel comfortable at least testing the operation of the oil mixture system in your engine, and monitoring your oil level and engine temperature to make sure things are working properly, I'd definitely consider reverting to the original engineering. the alternative is to bypass and remove the system entirely and switch to 100% pre-mix.  Double oil is a waste and can actually gum up cylinders and rings over time.

[pzart]

OK, let's over-think just a little more.

"three tall boys"  Better start the still up right after Christmas.

and buy about 2 acres to grow that corn for the still, funny, the TALL BOYS is all I saw in that entire message.....aside from the fact that we had 71 and a half gallons of pure recreational gasoline.....why start the still except for drinking......

[wingtime]

By 1997 OMC was using the OMS oil injection system. (oil metering system). This is a very reliable system and it is given a bad rap by people who just don't understand how it works. This includes mechanics! I would bet your oil injection is working just fine. The system check system does a great job of monitoring it and you will get a warning alarm and light if anything is wrong. If your still worried just put some tape on the oil tank at the top of the oil level. This will allow you to check the amount of oil used after a few outings.

[RickK]

There was an interesting article in a recent Boating magazine about ethanol and how much water it took for phase separation  in test of ALL the treatments available. Here is a short video of what they did.
http://www.boatingmag.com/boats/boatinglab

[Capt. Bob]

The last two sentences say it all.

[Capt. Bob]

aside from the fact that we had 71 and a half gallons of pure recreational gasoline.....why start the still except for drinking......

I'm with ya on the drinkin'  but I would not run 82-83 octane fuel in my recreational machines unless it was in a Mad Max world. :|

[pzart]

8)  8) Mad Max world.  8)  8)

Now that's the right attitude......

When I got my 170 I was surprised it had no fuel tank leaks, but I also suspected it had been replaced. It has a approx 25 gallon tank and had about 10 gallons of 1 1/2 year old fuel in it. I pumped out the old, the first quart was nothing but white sludge and ethanol, then I pumped about 3 more gallons of what seemed to be fairly good smelling gasoline. added some oil and some octane booster to the 3 gallons and ran the motor out on the lake and it ran good. I then left the remaining fuel in the tank, added 6 gallons of high octane ethanol with booster and stabilizer, then I ran that batch out on a good day. I have the water separator filter and drained it once but have had no further issues or problems with fuel.

Yes I have a 25-27 gallon tank, No, I rarely ever put more fuel in it than I will need, mainly because I am a penny pincher, :flower:  a ethanol user :flower: , and I carry a spare 3 gallon plastic boat tank full of rec fuel and stabilizer as a backup.

I guess its just like everything else that is good or great, I had to quit smoking cigarettes cause the price got up to $3.00 a pack, I had to cut way back on my drinking cause it got to taxy....I mean expensive, Now, I have to run the cheap gas because of our government rules....and because I am a penny pincher. But it does help that my Evinrude manual says Ethanol is OK to use....just change out your rubbers regularly and if you watched Rick video....
....keep it fresh

[Capt. Bob]

Pzart,
It's almost like looking in a mirror :o  except that I had to stop the cigars for for an entirely different reason, still.....

The vid and your pic is the best approach that I see in battling ethanol. More than a few members here scoffed at my scaled down fuel tank on the WAC. Haven't ran out yet and go through the fuel quickly. When it sits up for more than a month (not as often during the summer/autumn months) I just drain and use it in my son's Ford Ranger (he loves free gas). This method works for me because I have a good take on how I use the boat and an accurate method to measure fuel burn.

Ethanol fuel is just like a human body part.
Don't use it and it quits working.  



























I'm talking about the brain, you sickos.