Flatback Fireboat Rebuild

[seabob4]

Guys, keep in mind that oft times, differences between like model boat can be attributed to "anomolies" on the production floor.  Lack of certain materials, dealer feedback about particular structural issues, screw-ups in lamination (once you have a problem there, it follows that boat all the way down the line), schedule-driven production managers, all these factors can contribute to differences in like models that were not intended to be any permanant change or improvement.  

Excellent case in point, as I believe I have mentioned this before, was when we ran out of end-grain balsa (supplied in kit form from DIAB) and had to use marine ply to core the decks of 225 or 245/250 Ospreys.  Same would go for Explorers.  The ply cored decks weighed a TON in comparison to the balsa cored decks, and some owners might say why does my Osprey weigh 400 lbs more than my buddies?  When did this change?  When in reality, nothing changed at all, it was just a stop-gap measure until things could get back to normal...

Inexperienced lam crews, or experienced crews that were used to laying up other models can account for below decks stringer and b/head differences between like model boats as well.  To this day, and I'm sure it was very prevalent back then, there are not a lot of companies that use in-line QC checks to assure complete consistency from one boat to the next of the same model.  A hull comes out of lam, goes through cutting, gets to the assembly building, a hull prep guy gets in and says...WTF is this!  Calls the super over, the super calls the Prod Mngr over, prod mngr is schedule driven, knows it would through that boat way off schedule to fix the "issue", so he asks himself can I/we live with this?  If so, the build continues and now you have 1 boat of a certain model that is quite a bit different than other boats of the same model...

Unfortunately, the only real way to document the "history" of the various early AS models would be to interview several people who worked at the Hialeah plant way back then.  I would imagine, since it's basically 40 years ago, many of those folks are no longer with us.  Genmar certainly had the opportunity to do so when they owned the company, but, they decided it just wasn't important.  Shame on them.

So just a bit of a caveat here when it comes to trying to determine the absolute history of a product that, in all honesty, had very little documentation in regards to how it was built.  Case in point regarding documentation.  Proline ABSOLUTELY splashed the Pathfinder 2200 bay boat hull to create their 22 Bay and 24 Bay.  Pathfinder sued (http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200411259.pdf ) and lost because they did not properly document changes to their hull, so hence could not prove the splash was a Pathfinder...and this was in 2005!  Not 1973!

From someone whose "been there, done that"...

[gran398]

Good stuff Bob

[CLM65]

Thanks Bob, good insight there.  I'm just happy I didn't start cutting away at the floor in search of the wood.  Those little holes I drilled will be a piece of cake to fill compared to what could have been .

[seabob4]

It really is an incredible shame that a boat builder that, to some degrees, has the same following as Mako, SeaCraft, Whaler, Grady-White, did not have the foresight to not only get all the documentation down, but to pass along the importance of that documentation to the future owners, in this case Genmar.  It it also of equal, if not greater shame, that Irwin Jacobs did not see Aquasport as seemingly the rest of the boating community did, and does.

I met Jacobs twice in my time, he was one to drop in to the plant and just walk around, unescorted.  He liked the WC partr of things, period.  Treated AS as an afterthought.  Little did this "intelligent" man know that AS would continue on, even grow, although the last models produced were in '05, yet no one really covets a WC, except the V20 crowd.  A guy on THT started a WC forum, asked me to help out, I did my best...but almost zero traffic.  Not exactly fun posting to no one...

It would be absolutely awesome to find some shipping container in some obscure corner of some builders property that held the design, engineering, marketing, and whatever else documentation of the famous Aquasports boats.  But somehow, I just don't think that's ever gonna happen...

[CLM65]

It's been a while since I posted progress pics.  I have to confess that I have not been very good at documenting the whole process in pictures.  But here are some showing where I am currently at.  The transom is in.  I used the same schedule as Eugene did on Ashley's boat.  That is:

3/4 oz mat
3 x 1708
3 x 3/4 oz mat
3/4" Kay-Cel, 3/4 oz mat, 3/4" Kay-Cel (this "sandwich" was made separately)
3/4 oz mat
3 x 1708

I'm still working on the stringers.  Sometimes I wonder if it would have been easier to pull them out and start from scratch.  But I'm stubborn so I'm not going to change now.  Here is a picture showing where the tank will most likely go (+/- 6" or so).



This pic shows the cradle for the tank to make sure it is properly supported.  It will get boxed in by the stringers and bulkheads.



And here is a pic with the tank sitting in the cradle, also showing the transom.  The transom has a subtle curve to it, about an inch higher in the center than the sides.  



Grinding out the old glass and putty is really a PITA, but I'm getting there.  I can usually only do it for about 30-45 minutes before my angle grinder gets really hot and I need to give it a break.  Which is fine, because the heat of summer is here and I need to cool off then too.

[love2fish]

wheew,,, looks like a ton of grinding! Great progress though!

Are you going to add "tabs" to the inside of the stringers, i think I've read on a couple rebuilds where the weak link of the original stringers is that they separate from the hull overtime.

Noticed your gas tank "engine" line is towards the front of the tank... will that cause a problem if you are running low and the gas is pitched towards the aft? (might have plenty of gas in the tank, but it would be able to get to the pick-up)...

[CLM65]

Thanks Chris.  Yes, I will be tabbing the inside of the stringers.  They seem to be very well attached right now - which makes removing portions of the them for the tank install and the bilge area that much more fun - but I'm not going to rely on the putty alone to last the life of the boat.  I can't afford to do the whole under-deck portion in epoxy, but I'm leaning towards getting enough epoxy to tab the stringers under where the console will be, and a little bit forward of that.  I think that will be the area that gets tested the most over time, especially if I put a tower on her.

As far as the gas tank install...the slope of the tank will follow the keel (not parallel to the deck), so it will be a little lower towards the front, which is also where the pickup is.  So I should be able to suck all the gas up, especially when I'm just idling.  The flip side is that I probably won't get the full 72 gallon capacity, as air will get trapped at the rear end of the tank.  But I'm fine with that, as I was really looking for a 55 gallon tank, but couldn't pass up the deal I got on this one.  Note that the reason I am putting the fitting end of the tank towards the front and following the keel is to minimize the amount I need to raise the deck.  There is a bit more space in the hull towards the front.  I was originally only going to raise it an inch or so, but now I'm planning on 3".  That should give me plenty of space for the tank and also help with deck drainage.

Any other concerns or suggestions...keep 'em coming!  I'm trying to think this all through, but I've never done anything like this before, so I'm bound to make some mistakes or do things the hard way.  I hoping you guys can help keep me out of trouble!

[Callyb]

Craig, just some food for thought...

I would really consider pulling the rest of the stringers out and starting from scratch. The amount of materials you will have into rebuilding them will be pretty well identical to building them from scratch. Plus, it will probably take less time as opposed to patching everything back together. In my (humble) opinion you will wind up with a better end product. I was in your shoes (I had thought I was going to be able to reuse my stringers) and after weighing the pros and cons, decided it would be time and money well spent to completely remove them. Another thing to consider is you would be able to add a layer in the hull to build back up what you had to grind out.

Not trying to be pushy, just offering an opinion.

[CLM65]

Thanks Carl, you're not being pushy.  You are doing what I was hoping for - offering advice and opinions.  

I've thought about removing everything and starting from scratch.  Before I pulled the floor up, I figured that if my stringers were delaminating like so many others, then I wouldn't have a choice.  But I've found quite the opposite.  The stringer sections I did remove, I couldn't remove with a chisel.  I had to grind them down.  Maybe it was the easy lifestyle this boat had on a lake, as Scott (aka gran398) has previously suggested.  Regardless, I feel the bond is good, and by tabbing in the insides of the stringers, it will only get stronger.  I won't be able to add extra glass below the bonded area of the stringers (obviously), but I will be adding a layer of glass in all the exposed areas.  While perhaps not quite as good as starting from scratch, I believe the finished product will be more than adequate.  At least I really hope so!

[CLM65]

Silly questions for those of you that have tabbed in your existing stringers...how did you go about doing it?  Did you run continuous strips of glass along the entire hull/stringer joint?  Or did you just do intermittent "tabs".

Also, tabbing in these trapezoid stringers requires glassing the underside of the angled stringers.  Does this create a problem with the glass wanting to fall down?  If so, is there a trick to keep it in place until it cures?

Lastly, a question on pourable foam...how much do you mix at a time?

Thanks!

[Aswaff400]

Silly questions for those of you that have tabbed in your existing stringers...how did you go about doing it?  Did you run continuous strips of glass along the entire hull/stringer joint?  Or did you just do intermittent "tabs".

Also, tabbing in these trapezoid stringers requires glassing the underside of the angled stringers.  Does this create a problem with the glass wanting to fall down?  If so, is there a trick to keep it in place until it cures?

Lastly, a question on pourable foam...how much do you mix at a time?

Thanks!

i used strips, about 5 ft long,
i just glassed to the angled part didnt worry about getting under it,
i mixed about a gallon at a time(1/2 gal part-A, 1/2 gal part-B)

[CLM65]

Thanks Aaron, good to hear from you!

So to be clear, the glass had no problem sticking to the stringer, even though gravity was not working in its favor?

[RickK]

Try to use a wet out board Craig and have someone wet out the strips for the tabbing.  I cut my tabbing full length (like 14 ft) and had Ed wet them out with a roller and a hard roller and then roll them up as he did.  Then he handed a roll to me and I just unrolled it in place, positioned it, hard rolled it and then laid the next layer over it.  Make them as long as you can, but the wet out board is the key.  I only did the outside of the stringers though.

A wet out board is a some form of table - I use a 2'W x 8'L sheet of plywood on saw horses - covered in plastic sheeting that you can throw away when done and it protects the table.  One thing I noticed is that if you can keep the table out of the sun the resin will give you more working time.

[CLM65]

Thanks Rick, great tip

[gran398]

Craig, just spoke with Chris at Seamark. The correct procedure is exactly as Rick describes. One long strip, wet out outside of the boat. Rolled up, placed in the boat, then rolled out.

He recommends thicker material with some rigidity to prevent falloff/sagging on the interior of the trapezoid stringers. Specifically, he said to use stitchmat or biax.

Where you get to the end of the run...overlap the next strip.