83 v4 crossflow 115 no spark

[ozzie3444]

Had the boat out last sat and after 5 min of running noticed a loss of power. I was attempting to return to the dock when the engine died completely. After getting the boat home I checked it out and found none of the cyls were firing. I removed the kill wire at the power packs Blk / Yel. This did not fix the problem. Also removed rectifier leads. Yel. Still no spark. I have volt ohm meter but no DVa tester. I have a spare set of power packs but I am concerned that if something else is the problem I could ruin the packs. Could someone give me steps I should take to troubleshoot this problem. Thanks!

Ozzie

[RickK]

Could something like a safety switch, like most engines have at the helm, gone bad?

[flounderpounder225]

It's the stator, that's my bet and I'm sticking to it... I had an 83 115

[fitz73222]

I'm with Mark,

Bad stator or sensor assembly under the flywheel, broken or corroded wire in the internal harness from the sensor timing advance wiring to the power packs.  Try the spark check with different stages of throttle advance. Push on the wiring with something insulated while the engine is cranking and see if the spark comes back. You already disconnected the black and yellow leads that would isolate the keyswitch as a problem. Check all ground connections. The common denominator for both power packs not to deliver fire is under the flywheel. It would be very unlikely for both power packs or all four coils to fail at the same time. Mark sure you do the spark check with a fully charged, good battery. The engine must reach 300 rpm minimum cranking speed in order to create enough voltage to fire at the plugs. Although this is probably unrelated; we had a 115 years ago that would not fire using the starter to turn the engine over but would start instantly pulling it with a rope. The engine appeared to be turning over fine, but in fact it was not developing cranking speed. We replaced the starter and she would light up instantly. There is no connection between starter amperage draw and ignition fire since the magneto creates its own voltage with or without a battery, but it must reach cranking speed. At 6:00 am, I don't have the stator test parameters in front of me but I think you'll need a CD77 tester to check the sensor or stator ignition voltage but I'm sure there is a short cut using a DVM/VOM to do a basic check. You'll need a VOM that can handle at least 400 volts to do a test.

Fitz

[ozzie3444]

To all who are making suggestions regarding this problem. I think you are on the right track. Let me tell you how this problem progressed. The boat would run great at times and then it would struggle, no speed like it dropped 2 of the cyl. Then it would clear up and run fine again. The last and final time it ran, it lost power like it dropped cyls, ran without a lot of power for a while and then quit. My limited knowledge of the cdi sys makes me wonder why both banks are dead. After a lot of cranking I could get it to start but it would rev up and then die. Had to be towed in. Now nothing. In the past I always had trouble getting this motor to idle. After reading Fitz's post to another member I think my problem is simuliar to that. My eng has been bored 0.30 over I believe with no change to jets. I will address this when I get her running again. Keep in mine that I have limited test equip. Good volt meter. basic hand tools, timing light. I am looking at 3 possibilities 1. Timer base 2. Stator, 3. Power packs, I also have spare power packs. The tach seems to work so I am thinking maybe I can rule out the stator. I don't want to swap packs for fear of ruining them if something else is the problem. Does it make sense that both packs would blow at the same time without another component causing the problem. Trying to use a process of elemination since I have limited testing skills.Thanks to all again.

Ozzie

[Georgie]

Ozzie -

Pretty sure installing your new packs is not likely to damage them, but as Fitz mentioned above, its HIGHLY unlikely both sides died at once.  So if you have no spark on either bank then I'd go further up the system and test the timer base and stator.  I believe I have two or three used extras stators and timer bases in my pile o parts from that generation crossflow.  I was going to list them on ebay for a few bucks to help pay off all that wedding debt I just "inherited"   but I can prob afford to send one your way.  Same deal with coils and packs from '83.  Just let me know whatever it turns out to be.  I also can get you factory spec resistance measurements if you decide to try and troubleshoot your system with a meter.  Had to do a bunch of that this summer when I accidentally chewed through part of my wiring harness with the flywheel.  Manual is at home though and I'm obviously at work.  If nothing obviously looks worn or you see no evidence of "green disease" then carefully and systematically trouble shooting your individual components via meter and according to factory/manual specs would be my next recommendation.  Good luck.  We can all sympathize!

[ozzie3444]

Georgie, Thanks for the offer. When I sort out which part is causing the problem I would be happy to pay you a fair price for it. I have done some testing and here is what I have come up with so far.

Charge coil resistance   L = 296 ohms  R 294 ohms
To Grn   L = 0 ohms         R = 0 ohms

Sensor Coil Resistance       L = A-B = 32.8 ohms  A-C = 32.6 ohms  R = A-B = 32.9  A-C = 36.4


Charge Coil Output Test Left
A to Grn = 10v AC  B to GRN 21v AC
Ato B 63v AC
Right
A to GRN 17v AC  B to GRN 21v AC
A to B 70v AC

These test were done with a digital Voltmeter set for AC readings.   What say the experts?

[fitz73222]

Georgie, Thanks for the offer. When I sort out which part is causing the problem I would be happy to pay you a fair price for it. I have done some testing and here is what I have come up with so far.

Charge coil resistance   L = 296 ohms  R 294 ohms
To Grn   L = 0 ohms         R = 0 ohms

Sensor Coil Resistance       L = A-B = 32.8 ohms  A-C = 32.6 ohms  R = A-B = 32.9  A-C = 36.4


Charge Coil Output Test Left
A to Grn = 10v AC  B to GRN 21v AC
Ato B 63v AC
Right
A to GRN 17v AC  B to GRN 21v AC
A to B 70v AC

These test were done with a digital Voltmeter set for AC readings.   What say the experts?

How do they compare to shop manual guidelines?

[seabob4]

Exactly.  You are getting resistance and voltage where you should, but is it within operating guidelines?  

For those that may not know, electrical values, whether they be Ohms, Volts, Watts, whatever, do vary within systems and within components, even brand new ones.  They all have a recommended operating range, just like compression in cylinders...as long as they are around "X", that sort of thing.  Obviously, you want to be as close to optimum as possible.  But there are ranges of electrical values whre the component will be just fine...

Sorry for the de-rail, guys...

[ozzie3444]

I have decided that the problem I am having with this eng. has to be the flywheel, (will pull it off today to check magnets) the timer base,(want to replace for reliability,wires are old and cracked) or the stator( tac works but batts don't charge well and I am loosing my fishfinder due to low sys voltage. When I got this boat there was no regulator, prv owner said it wasn't needed. I would like to upgrade to 35 amp stator with regulator. Is this possible? How safe would it be to use used parts? In reading instructions for replacing the timer base I see that a retainer ring is needed. Should I order this when I order the timer base? Thanks for the help so far.

[fitz73222]

Your engine had the traditional flywheel design with the cast in magnets as opposed to the later designed glued in magnets which was a horrible design and caused lots of problems. I've never seen a flywheel go bad beyond a damaged keyway from improper torque of the nut. If you have observed bad wiring from corrosion or other damage; its time to replace everything.

[ozzie3444]

you are correct. I do have the cast in magnets. I am now trying to inspect the flywheel. the book states that there should be 6 magnets but I am counting 12. my thinking is that that would be 6 sets with alternating N and S poles. They all seem to be ok. I think I have found the 2 sensor magnets in the flywheel hub. They would be the 2 slots in the steel ring that appears to surround some brown magnetic material on the hub. Some of this material seems to be missing from my flywheel. It looks as if it might have melted. The stator has the number 581830 7k on it. I am wanting to upgrade to 35amp. Is this possible?

[Georgie]

Ozzie

can you post a couple photos of the "melted" stuff you're talking about?  It's really very unlikely your flywheel is bad.  Much more likely to be either your stator or timer base.  I don't think you ever want to worry about "upgrading" any of the electrical components from the originally engineered design. Just make sure you're using the original designed/specified parts and that they are operating properly....and to answer an earlier question, for a 1983 engine there's nothing wrong with used parts if they're functioning properly.   Off the top of my head I believe the 581830 part no is the exact same stator that I have spares of, but I'll check when I get home to be sure.  I also believe I have a timer base for that stator as well.  Will let you know.  If possible, see if you can get the part number off the timer base for me as well.