1983 Johnson 175hp primer solenoid/SeaTow

[clementsea]

Hi folks,

After almost 7 hours on the water yesterday, running the engine on and off fishing, I put into a harbor to drop a friend off and couldn't get the engine started... had 1/4+ tank of fuel left, primer bulb got firm, but the engine struggled to light off & when it did, it instantly sputtered and died... I noticed a sheen of gas in the water by the engine, so I took off the engine cover and tried to start the engine... fuel was spitting out of the area at the base of the schrader valve on the primer solenoid (where the run/fog red selector knob is) when I cranked the engine (leaked most when I choked it)... I tried twisting the selector knob to find a spot that didn't leak, but failed... SeaTow to the rescue. They did a great job... man am I glad I had that card!

Now, I've ordered a new primer solenoid that should arrive via mail tomorrow... wondering if anyone has any input on replacing the solenoid. Do I have to prime it to avoid a bubble or vacuum? Any suggestions? Thanks!

[Georgie]

Morning,

Should be about the simplest "plug and play" replacement you could hope for.  If you want to be thorough, take the time to make sure all your hoses are clear running from the primer solenoid to the carbs.  Otherwise, just install the new one exactly like the old one (hot wire, ground wire, larger intake fuel hose, and the smaller distribution hoses).  Then, turn your battery power on and depress your key switch a few times to make sure you can hear the new solenoid make its distinctive clicking noise.  As long as you hear that, you should be good.  To verify it is functioning, you can remove the top distribution hose from where it attaches to the top carburetor and press the key switch.  Fuel should squirt out of the end of the hose.

Also, don't toss your old primer!  your problem could've been as simple as an o-ring failure, and those o-rings cost a grand total of 2 or 3 bucks on parts sites like http://www.boats.net  That way you have a backup if you accidentally break one of the nipple fittings or another o-ring.

Good luck!

[clementsea]

Ryan,

Thanks for your reply!  The part arrived today, gonna install it and see if she lights off... fingers crossed.  I will keep the old one like you suggested.  I noticed pulling the old one that the selector knob tab was snapped off (I thought it was just a different design...), so the valve must have taken a hit somewhere along the line which probably caused the leak... I'd bet the solenoid itself is good and I could replace the valve stem and have a good back up... thanks again.  I'll post the results...

[clementsea]

installed the part... still won't light off.  Checked the plugs... they were fouled.  Wonder if I'm running the gas/oil too rich?

[Georgie]

Any idea why the valve stem broke in the first place?  It's kind of an odd piece to break unless you were turning wrenches in the vicinity.  Also, have you changed anything about your fueling procedures?  If not, and the engine was running fine previously, then I doubt I'd be questioning your mixture.  Is the little red manual lever on the new solenoid oriented parallel to the body of the cylinder, or perpendicular.  If you accidentally left it open (perpendicular), then that would explain excess fuel in your cylinders.   My 1-1/2 cents.

[clementsea]

Well... I was unsure of which position the knob should be in, so I cranked the engine with it in both positions (cause it didn't light off in either one...).  When I have the knob in the wrong position, am I basically flooding/fogging the cylinders?  Did I foul the plugs by cranking the engine with the knob in the wrong position??

[Capt. Bob]

Well... I was unsure of which position the knob should be in, so I cranked the engine with it in both positions (cause it didn't light off in either one...).  When I have the knob in the wrong position, am I basically flooding/fogging the cylinders?  Did I foul the plugs by cranking the engine with the knob in the wrong position??

The Search function is your friend.
viewtopic.php?p=72539#p72539

[clementsea]

Thanks Capt Bob,

My solenoid knob rotates 180 degrees... I'll put the lever so it looks like the one in the picture and try again... It doesn't sound like it's my problem.  I'm away for work and don't get home till next Wed, so I'll dig into the problem then.  Thanks for your input... I'll use the search function next time!

[clementsea]

Hi all...

I'm sure it's obvious from the time between my posts that I don't get much time to use or work on my boat...

To restate, I had the engine (1983 175hp Johnson) running well for July & most of August.  I ran through around 100 gallons of fuel (4 tanks full...) in that time.  Around 21 August, the engine stalled and wouldn't re-start after a full day on the water... I got towed home.  I found the primer solenoid leaking fuel while cranking, so I replaced that & tried to start the engine with no luck.

Two weeks passed till I had time to work on the boat again... I pulled & cleaned the plugs, pumped the ball & the engine lit off right away... It ran really well at "start idle" for about 8 minutes... I shut it down, and let it sit for a few minutes and re-started it with 1/2 a key turn... let it idle again, and after about 4 minutes, it stalled... I tried several times to re-start after that and had no luck.  Very similar symptoms as when it stalled and left me stranded a few weeks ago... I pulled & cleaned the plugs again, and couldn't get it to re-light.

Observations/questions:

1.  fuel drips from the bottom of where the black plastic intake manifold meets the carburetor after my 6-8 tries at re-start... is the carburetor bowl overflowing cause I'm advancing the throttle to attempt light off?

2.  I begin the start attempt with the throttle in the "start position" and advance it if the engine doesn't light off at the "start position".  Usually, if the engine doesn't light off as I advance the throttle, I'll pull it back to the start position and will get a momentary light off followed by a stall...

3.  How quickly am I flooding the engine?  Is my technique for starting flooding the engine?

4.  Is there a fuel filter in the engine?  Might it be clogging?

I'm hoping that someone might have a suggestion as to where to go from here... It seems like the engine is flooding itself once it warms up... is that possible?  I've had friends tell me it's ethanol related.  I have a fuel/water separator/filter installed and show no signs of water in the inspection cup, I've also heard that using "street gas" is a bad idea, but my boat's on a trailer & it's convenient & cheaper to buy fuel at the station vs the dock... if it is ethanol, do I have a carburetor clog/problem?..... Help!?

[ktisdall]

Hi - I have the 1986 version of that motor.

1) there are no accelerator pumps in your motor, so moving the throttle by itself will not flood the engine.  Not like a carburetor on a car.

2) what I know of 2-cycle engines says that a flooded engine needs no choke and wide-open throttle to get enough air in to start (if it is going to - be ready to pull the throttle back).

3) if you have fuel dripping, it could be a stuck carb float, allowing raw gas to flood at least one or more cylinders.  Are ALL the plugs wet with gas or just a few?

4) I followed the link posted by Capt Bob to position my primer lever.  Seems to work for me.

5) can you determine that the choke actually clicks on/off and pumps fuel when you push the ignition key in?  I believe you can remove one of the small hoses from the primer to the carb(s) and watch it while pushing the key in.

6) maybe try a fresh set of plugs if these have been fouled several times?

That's all I got.  Good luck.

--Kevin

[Georgie]

To follow Kevin's' post:

Carb cannot overflow simply because of throttle b/c A) throttle only meters the amount of air entering carbs to lean the mixture, and b) carbs can't overflow if needle valves in the carb bowl are functioning properly.

Also, can you describe the stall?  is it sudden or immediate, or more slow like the engine is bogging down or running out of fuel?  If immediate, then you could potentiall have an issue with kill circuit integrity (possible ground issue or green disease in the black and yellow wire in your wire harness I believe)...but that's another matter entirely.

I don't really think it's possible to flood the engine once its underway without changing the jets in the carburetors.  If flooding is a concern, then just start with less primer solenoid and gradually work your way to more until the engine comes to life.  I also find that if I wait a minute or two after pumping the key switch a couple times that the vapors seem to distribute better inside the block and she ignites more easily.

If the engine is trimmed/tilted at all when you're testing it, the fuel dripping from the bottom of the black plastic air intake cover could be simply the result of gravity drawing out of the front of the carb throats any excess fuel you are squirting into the carb via the primer solenoid (i.e. you may just be depressing the key switch too many times)

Yes, you should have a simple in-line fuel filter somewhere between the cowling fuel plug and fuel pump on the port side of your engine block.  Inspect or replace as necessary...they're relatively inexpensive.

Your symptoms seem intermittent enough that I'd proceed by first servicing the carbs fully (making sure no varnish, gum, grit, or other contaminants are fouling or otherwise clogging any of the ports, jets, or venturi or causing your needle valves to malfunction.  B-12 Chemtool is EXCELLENT for this (but wear gloves and use outdoors or a well ventilated area b/c it contains MEK, a known carcinogen).

Once you've fully serviced the carbs, try running again.  If the carb overhaul didn't fix the problem, try disconnecting your fuel hose just aft of the cockpit filter/water separator and sticking the hose into a spare, clean fuel tank/jug containing fresh premix to eliminate the filter, intake, pickup, and vent hose as potential problems.  Run again.

I have the same generation V-4 crossflow and these engines are so simple that they are pretty good at resisting the effects of ethanol unless the fuel has been sitting in the lines or carbs for a really long time.

Good luckand post back with results after these steps.  Fitz or others may have additional guidance.

[fitz73222]

Clementsea,

This points towards leaking needles and seats in the carbs,or saturated floats (lose buoyancy) pretty sure you have neoprene tipped float needles that seat against brass inlet seats. These needle tips do wear over time and combined with ethanol fuel can loose their ability to shut off the fuel supply at idle causing it to flood. There is something here in the amount of time it takes for the engine to shut off once you fire it up. The carburetors cycle fuel at idle. In other words, the carbs fill, the needles shut off the fuel supply as the floats rise in the bowl, the engine consumes fuel, the floats lower,open up the needles and allow fuel to enter the float chamber and the process repeats. This process can take 4-5 minutes per cycle depending on throttle setting. So as others have pointed out, a good disassemble, cleaning (I like Berryman Chem dip) and replacement of the floats, needles,seats and gaskets is good advice. A ruptured fuel pump diaphragm or sticking check valve can also cause these symptoms due to fuel being drawn into the engine via the pulse hose from the crankcase. Your engine is non VRO and uses two fuel pumps in series so I doubt both fuel pumps are bad and usually only affect the cylinders that are inline with pulse hose connection points. Now for the but... Your engine was never designed to run on E10 or any alcohol based fuel so it is possible to  have a rubber component meltdown in your fuel system that has manifested into this flooding condition. If you are running E10, you are going to have to upgrade everything. All the fuel hoses, fuel pump diaphragms, rebuild the carbs, basically anything that has gas passing through it. This may also be the cause of the primer/enrichner diaphragm failure. The good news is that all of the replacement parts will be E10 compatible so you should only need to do this once. There is a remote chance that this issue is ignition related so before we do fuel system surgery try one thing first. Clean the plugs again, get the engine started and run her as long as you can until she shuts off. When it shuts off, immediately remove the plugs and do a spark test. Reconnect the spark plugs to the wires and ground them against the block, crank over the engine and see if you have nice blue spark on all six plugs. Now you will need a helper to turn the keyswitch while you stand at the back of the engine to watch for spark or you can jump the starter solenoid with the keyswitch turned on so you can do this yourself at the back of the engine. If no spark, new chapter!