Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Electrical => Topic started by: seabob4 on January 24, 2012, 09:48:43 PM
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There has been much said about wiring on boats, about premature failure of equipment on boats, about corroded terminals, switches, breakers, fuse holders, you name it, on boats. All of which lead to one sort of failure or another, some minor (your courtesy lights quit), some major (you've sprang a small leak, and the bilge pump no longer works). But failures non the less.
A lot of these failures are blamed on the equipment. But one must remember. The equipment gets it's power from the leads that feed it. If the leads that feed the equipment are black with corrosion, if the switch terminals, fuse blocks, and breaker terminals are green with corrosion, large amounts of resistance are introduced into the circuit that makes the equipment work that much harder to produce, and induces premature failure due to the conditions under which the equipment has to work.
And the corrosion that is evident in any harness does not stop at the plugs or butt splices that connect that equipment to the leads that feed it. The corrosion is in the leads off the lights, off the pumps, it's in the motor windings, it's in every part of that equipment that has any contact with electricity.
I do re-wires and re-rigs, installs for a living. I see this every day, day in, day out, on all different brands of boats. They live in a nasty environment. Can an owner stop the inevitability of corrosion from happening? No. But with regular maintenance, the application of anti-corrosion sprays and compounds, can great extend the life of a boat, electrically. But, inevitably, there is going to come a time when equipment starts failing, and simply replacing that equipment is just going to buy an owner a little bit of time before that equipment has to be replaced again.
I'm writing this because I am getting some inquiries as to whether I can do work for some owners, just to get this working, to get that working...of course I can. But when I get under a console, and the whole fuse block is corroded, when the breaker terminals are as green as the scum on a pond, what's the point? So, I got an owners nav lgts working this week, what happens when his washdown pump craps out next month? And the bilge float switch the month after that?
The way I look at it, any smaller boat from an average builder that is around 10 years old needs a complete rewiring. That is especially true when the boat lives very near to shore, especially in the south along the Gulf coast.
This is not written in an effort to increase my business load, I am doing fine, and enjoy doing what I do. I am fortunate. But over the past several days, due to some emails, due to some reading, I just thought I would put this out there for those to ponder, and hopefully to look into their boats and do a few more things that can make their boat live longer, more useful lives, and to give their owners the enjoyment that they bought her for in the first place for...
Thank, jawz...
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:thumright:
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Excellent post Bob!
And I paid particular attention to the resistance advice. Especially true on the VHF feed. Nowadays, VHF's will internally shut down when below a constant 12.5V
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Yes, well said.
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Excellent post Bob!
And I paid particular attention to the resistance advice. Especially true on the VHF feed. Nowadays, VHF's will internally shut down when below a constant 12.5V
Scott, and others,
Resistance, in the form of corrosion or inferior wiring creates 2 things. First, voltage drop. Even though a particular appliance is designed to operate at, say, 14.5V-9.5VDC, it's really happy at the upper end. At the lower end, it's working hard, not nearly as efficient as it was designed to be...at the proper voltage. Second, resistance creates heat. Heat is bad. First, it takes energy to create heat, energy that should be used to power that appliance. Second, heat, uncontrolled, can cause fires. We hear about this quite often when boats catch on fire at marinas, not fuel related...
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Good post, Bob.
A thought, seeing how's I just bought this 12 Volt Bible.
Maybe you could write a small book and publish it. For various reasons - lack of time, lack of finances, lack of confidence, lack of
technical guidance - the average boat owner is, at times, going to continue to to look for that 60 or 70 percent solution ("Hey, can
ya just get my steaming lights working"), short of the optimal 100% solution, which is having the boat rewired.
What do you think about writing a book that:
A) teaches us all the maintenance tricks we can employ to make the boat last as long as it can, and
B) how we can trouble-shoot the 10 or 15 most common electrical problems.
Write and publish it yourself, you'll have a tidy income that if nothing else will give you beer money for those delicious AND nutritious
Natty Lites !!
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Great post Bob, and like T said do the book, in this economy alot of guys try to tackle this stuff on their own and it would be a big help. :salut:
And don't forget about SEA BOBS SHIP YARD, the next youtube hit.
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Hey...I concur with T on the book. You should do it. And additionally, should be pretty easy... you are an accomplished writer.
And also agree with Scott regarding a reality show. Son's of Guns, Gold Rush, Swamp Loggers (hey, I know that guy) and many more. You just need to be "discovered".
Lewis...Lewis...
:thumright:
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Trace, you are one funny, and insightful man!!!
A little story when I was at Proline. When Suzuki first came out with their Digital (SMIS) gauges, basically Lowrance LMF-400s or 200s (4" and 2"), it was part of my job that once a boat was rigged and ready for the engines to be run, I had to go out and configure the gauges. as the guys in the plant just weren't familiar with the stuff to do it on their own. Don't blame them, it's a high dollar option, so not exactly a day to day thing. So I wrote a "Programming guide", did it in Excel, complete with screen shots, pics of hardware, the whole nine yards. Printed out a copy for all the motor installers to have.
Well, I showed it to our Suzuki guy, my good friend Jon. He took it with him...a couple weeks later, I get an email from his boss out your way (American Suzuki is based in the LA area), asking if I could put it on disk and send it to him.
A long story short. Couple months later, Suzuki comes out with a technical bulletin...with my damn programming guide in it!!! In fact, my co-engineer pointed it out to me! Said, hey, Bob, remember that guide you wrote? And showed me the Zuke bulletin...
And that is a true story. They owe me royalties!!! But I did it so that one, the guys on the floor could feel empowered, knowing they could do it on their own, and two, it freed me up to do things more akin to my job...
So, on to your premise...to write a book, no, maybe a booklet, about basic wiring techniques and basic wiring troubleshooting. With pics and diagrams. Take some time, take some putting together...and I'd probably have to throw a vid in there or two...
An e-book?
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Sorry Scott, Scott, took me a bit to think and write my last post...
Damn it boys, I may just have to tackle this little project...
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: if you don't we will bug you till you do :D
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While on the subject, what do you guys recommend as a "Boat wiring for dummies" book? I am looking for an easy to read guide that will help me understand the basics, down to what color wires should be used for what? Don't worry, I'm going to have a professional do the bullk of the wiring but I need a basic understanding. Until Seabob's book comes out......
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While on the subject, what do you guys recommend as a "Boat wiring for dummies" book? I am looking for an easy to read guide that will help me understand the basics, down to what color wires should be used for what? Don't worry, I'm going to have a professional do the bullk of the wiring but I need a basic understanding. Until Seabob's book comes out......
Curious,
Actually, the book Trace picked up, "The 12 Volt Bible for Boats" is probably the best read out there. It's written very well, and pretty much goes on the premise that the reader is not entirely familiar with the concepts of 12V electricity and how it works.
The easiest way to describe the 12V concept is to imagine a circle, with a battery at the top of the circle, a device (light, pump, GPS unit, whatever) at the bottom of the circle. 12V flows to the device on the positive side of the circle, and flows back to the battery from the device on the negative side of the circle. Interrupt any portion of the circle and you have no power. That interruption is most commonly seen in the form of a switch. When the switch is off, the contacts inside the switch do not make contact with each other, so the circuit is interrupted (open). Turn the switch on, and the contacts touch each other, the interruption is gone (the circuit is closed), and viola, you have power.
The biggest problem facing boat owners is that when you turn on the switch, you have no power. Unless the device has simply failed (burnt out bulb, burnt up pump motor, etc.), the fact that you have no power means that there is an interruption in the circuit somewhere else, an interruption that wasn't intended (a switch is intended). So obviously, the trouble-shooting key is to find that unintended interruption and repair it.
There, easy isn't it?
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OH, I know about heat and wiring!
Yes, an ebook would be great Bob.
Excellent post Bob!
And I paid particular attention to the resistance advice. Especially true on the VHF feed. Nowadays, VHF's will internally shut down when below a constant 12.5V
Scott, and others,
Resistance, in the form of corrosion or inferior wiring creates 2 things. First, voltage drop. Even though a particular appliance is designed to operate at, say, 14.5V-9.5VDC, it's really happy at the upper end. At the lower end, it's working hard, not nearly as efficient as it was designed to be...at the proper voltage. Second, resistance creates heat. Heat is bad. First, it takes energy to create heat, energy that should be used to power that appliance. Second, heat, uncontrolled, can cause fires. We hear about this quite often when boats catch on fire at marinas, not fuel related...
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Bryan, you certainly do, my friend! That was a fun ordeal, wasn't it!!! :shock: :shock:
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The best analogy for DC power I learned in 9th grade electronics class. And that was to compare it to the flow of water. Volts is like PSI. Amps is like GPM. My favorite line my teacher Mr. Wallace used was if he sprayed you with 500 psi from a little garden hose it might sting you a bit. If he hit you with a 12" water main at 500 psi it would turn you inside out! LOL.
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The best analogy for DC power I learned in 9th grade electronics class. And that was to compare it to the flow of water. Volts is like PSI. Amps is like GPM. My favorite line my teacher Mr. Wallace used was if he sprayed you with 500 psi from a little garden hose it might sting you a bit. If he hit you with a 12" water main at 500 psi it would turn you inside out! LOL.
Good analogy. Take 2 16GA wires, one wired to positive, the other to negative. Touch the bare ends together, little bitty spark. Now do the same with 2 2GA barttery cables...BIG difference!!! Yet both are only 12V...
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Yup. Ohm's Law can be used for hydraulics.
Wire = pipe
Battery = tank
resistance = size of pipe
Voltage = pressure
Amps = gallons (or whatever measure) per minute
A bunch of other electronics parts not normally dealt with in boat maintenance also apply.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_analogy)
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Dang I learned something again!
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Curious, Actually, the book Trace picked up, "The 12 Volt Bible for Boats" is probably the best read out there. It's written very well, and pretty much goes on the premise that the reader is not entirely familiar with the concepts of 12V electricity and how it works.
The easiest way to describe the 12V concept is to imagine a circle, with a battery at the top of the circle, a device (light, pump, GPS unit, whatever) at the bottom of the circle. 12V flows to the device on the positive side of the circle, and flows back to the battery from the device on the negative side of the circle. Interrupt any portion of the circle and you have no power. That interruption is most commonly seen in the form of a switch. When the switch is off, the contacts inside the switch do not make contact with each other, so the circuit is interrupted (open). Turn the switch on, and the contacts touch each other, the interruption is gone (the circuit is closed), and viola, you have power.
The biggest problem facing boat owners is that when you turn on the switch, you have no power. Unless the device has simply failed (burnt out bulb, burnt up pump motor, etc.), the fact that you have no power means that there is an interruption in the circuit somewhere else, an interruption that wasn't intended (a switch is intended). So obviously, the trouble-shooting key is to find that unintended interruption and repair it.
There, easy isn't it?
Got it! So that rats nest of wires under every boat console I've ever seen is actually a big circle, right?
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Got it! So that rats nest of wires under every boat console I've ever seen is actually a big circle, right?
I theory, yes, as long as everything works...a really convoluted, roundabout in a figure 88 kinda way...but a circle. Circle is a relative term... :lol: :lol:
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.but a circle. Circle is a relative term... :lol: :lol:
Thought i heard my name :wink:
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.but a circle. Circle is a relative term... :lol: :lol:
Thought i heard my name :wink:
...hooked...circle hooked...
Damn boy, what are we gonna do with you???!!! :salut: :salut:
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Do it seabob we all need some help with wiring, I know I do mine is a mess, Going to start that as soon as you finish your book!!!
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You know, you guys, I very well may have to get after this. But it's not going to come quick. I want something that I can give to a boat owner that he can open up, read, understand, and use...and feel confidant in what he's doing...
And gotta have pics and vids...well, I have enough pics (that's for certain)...but vids work so much better...and then we could have an engine rigging section...
Hmmmmm.......
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Buy the book, and read it all you want guys, follow the pictures too and your wiring still will not be close to as pretty, last as long or be as functional as a Seabob job, Less money in materials too if you pay someone who does it day in day out to do it right the first time. Think of it like a cook book, 20 people can make the same recipe and not one will taste as good or look as good as the chef who makes it everyday, its all in the little details and technique!
Capt Matt
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Buy the book, and read it all you want guys, follow the pictures too and your wiring still will not be close to as pretty, last as long or be as functional as a Seabob job, Less money in materials too if you pay someone who does it day in day out to do it right the first time. Think of it like a cook book, 20 people can make the same recipe and not one will taste as good or look as good as the chef who makes it everyday, its all in the little details and technique!
Capt Matt
Capt. Matt is pretty much spot on. But I can give you a guide, some real basics, as well as a bit of insight into my "technique". My technique is not the only one out there, but it's the method I use, I'm comfortable with it, it allows me to adapt to changes should they occur, and it works...
And, fortunately for me, I enjoy it. I'll come up with something...
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Bob what do you recommend to put on battery terminals to fight corrosion.
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Bob what do you recommend to put on battery terminals to fight corrosion.
Dielectric, can even use vasoline, or any marine grease, lithium, even the standard cheapie you've got in your garage. The real key is to create a barrier the water (moisture) can't get through. We all know grease and water don't mix, and a moisture laden environment is not going to displace the grease on the lugs and terminals. When you need to deal with them, wipe most of it off with paper toweling and carry a spare rag handy for the grease you can't get off...
Not saying you have cheapie grease in your garage, Scott... :lol:
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Buy the book, and read it all you want guys, follow the pictures too and your wiring still will not be close to as pretty, last as long or be as functional as a Seabob job, Less money in materials too if you pay someone who does it day in day out to do it right the first time. Think of it like a cook book, 20 people can make the same recipe and not one will taste as good or look as good as the chef who makes it everyday, its all in the little details and technique!
Capt Matt
Capt. Matt is pretty much spot on. But I can give you a guide, some real basics, as well as a bit of insight into my "technique". My technique is not the only one out there, but it's the method I use, I'm comfortable with it, it allows me to adapt to changes should they occur, and it works...
And, fortunately for me, I enjoy it. I'll come up with something...
Bob...you have a knack. And a bit of time spent, regardless of the venue....could pay big dividends later.
We're behind you for a number of reasons. But most importantly...with correct execution...it could be wildly successful.
Remember the little people :lol: :lol:
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Buy the book, and read it all you want guys, follow the pictures too and your wiring still will not be close to as pretty, last as long or be as functional as a Seabob job, Less money in materials too if you pay someone who does it day in day out to do it right the first time. Think of it like a cook book, 20 people can make the same recipe and not one will taste as good or look as good as the chef who makes it everyday, its all in the little details and technique!
Capt Matt
Capt. Matt is pretty much spot on. But I can give you a guide, some real basics, as well as a bit of insight into my "technique". My technique is not the only one out there, but it's the method I use, I'm comfortable with it, it allows me to adapt to changes should they occur, and it works...
And, fortunately for me, I enjoy it. I'll come up with something...
Bob...you have a knack. And a bit of time spent, regardless of the venue....could pay big dividends later.
We're behind you for a number of reasons. But most importantly...with correct execution...it could be wildly successful.
Remember the little people :lol: :lol:
Duly noted, Scott...
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/seabob4/midgetbasketball.jpg)
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Where the heck would one find a pic like that :lol: looks like it could be from one of those stupid shows my wife watches, dwarf doctors having babies and their husbands wanting to buy a Porsche but can't reach the pedals to test drive it.
No offense to height challenged people intended.
As far as cheap grease i'm tacky, red and tacky :D
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I knew this guy once who had a....nope. Nope.
:lol:
Anyhow, BIG Bob... :lol: ...Pursue your gift bro :thumright:
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I knew this guy once who had a....nope. Nope.
:scratch: :idea: :lol:
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Scotts,
I just read the "little people" comment, and...well...my warped little mind... :lol: :lol:
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Bob what do you recommend to put on battery terminals to fight corrosion.
I have been using trailer bearing grease on battery posts for years with zero issues. When I have a new battery installed in a car I take the terminals off and grease them as soon as I get home.
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Makes sense, i pulled my batteries out to get in there for some maintenance and i noticed the terminals have just a tiny bit of corrosion on them, i usually spray them with the stuff in the blue can, can't remember the name but i figured time to try something different, grease it is.
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And why is it that as soon as we are done applying the grease, we wipe our hands on our pants?...with a rag near at hand?
Arrrrggggg...I'll get it someday...
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I knew this guy once who had a....nope. Nope.
:scratch: :idea: :lol:
When we all meet this year...ask me about this guy I knew once who had a.....
:lol:
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I knew this guy once who had a....nope. Nope.
:scratch: :idea: :lol:
When we all meet this year...ask me about this guy I knew once who had a.....
:lol:
I'll keep that in mind... :wink:
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And why is it that as soon as we are done applying the grease, we wipe our hands on our pants?...with a rag near at hand?
Arrrrggggg...I'll get it someday...
It's not so bad until you go into the house and sit down on mama's new couch or even worse, get it on the seat of your new truck. :roll:
The worst is 5200 or anti-seize compound. I can just look at a can of anti-seize and I'll have it on me somewhere.
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JJ, didn't you know that anti-sieze is magnetic towards humans? Walk by a can 2' away and it's on you...
And I know the deal with 5200 and vehicle seats... :shock: :shock:
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The worst of all is Pettit Trailer Coat paint. It's the best thing you will ever see for protecting metal. It also will never come off of the front of a new dishwasher. :oops: I guess I had splattered some on the front of my pants and when I reached up to get a glass...