Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => 196 Rebuilds => Topic started by: imonna 19 6 on August 06, 2011, 12:33:22 PM
-
Hi all,
i decide to retire the scupper question thread because that has been answered pretty thoroughly. Now that i know the problem I need to move onto the solution
Problem: Wet foam is adding weight to the stern, causing it to submerge and causing a lot of drag. this killing my fuel consumption and I suspect costing me a lot of money.
Solution: Cut an access hole in the deck somewhere that allows me to inspect the aftermarket added foam that someone put between the stringers and the outside of the hull. I am confident this foam is soaked and if confirmed, will remove as much as i can.
I am going to start on the starboard side.
The question is where to cut. My best chance is at the bottom of the control tunnel.
Does anyone see a reason that this would not be the best place? It appears that it is right over the open space between the stringer and the hull.
-
Hi Bill,
I've been pondering this ever since you posted... The rigging trough could be a place to start, but for every hole you drill is a hole you must somehow plug. If you find wet foam, then what? You would have to use a series of pie plates running the lenght of the floor that notoriously don't seal well unless you ran a bead of silicone around the screw in cap or just glassed over the holes you created. You are going to need holes big enough to get your arm through and grab or scoop out the foam; sounds like a royal PITA that may not yield the results you are looking for. The adhesion of that foam is quite remarkable; even with full access it is a pain. One might assume that the water is trapped a couple of feet forward of the transom. May be full size access hatch on either side, a foot or so in front of the transom. Cut a hole for a 11" X 23" standard hatch,with a jig saw, out board of each stringer. Dig, suck, or carve as much of the foam out as possible. Install the hatches... If there is any water in the foam ahead of where you can access it, the water will weep out into your new " storage cavity" assuming the bow is kept up high when it is on the trailer. Once the weeping process is complete you can buy liners for the hatches in various depths to make them real storage boxes if you wish. I think this may be the best option that would yield results and give you some in floor storage that is explainable and not unsightly for you or the next owner. I just went out and looked at my 22-2 with a similar beam and there is plenty of room for the hatch on either side. I really think this is factory foam and not PO foam since your floor appears original and no visable signs that the foam was added by someone else. I'm thinking this was an up right flotation law change in the late 70's that lead AS to add the additional foam. Under these circumstances, this is what I would do if taking out the entire floor wasn't an option.
-
I ran out of space... Some additional thoughts... I'm struggling with that much water being trapped in that foam, out board of the stringers without any visable means of entry. The stringers are still the likely source of that much water. An additional hatch centered in the floor in front of transom a foot or so in will give you access to the bottom inside corner of the stringer. Cross drill a 7/8 - 1" hole and see what comes out. The water will drain out and you can 5200 a brass drain plug insert and plug it off in the future. At least you can get 80% of the water out and make the boat safer and usable again. Then you can be like the rest of us with original hulls with 20 gallons of water in the stringers and not a 100 gallons!
-
I've developed a theory as to why we are all dealing with wet stringer foam and wet transoms that may "hold some water". I think the main reason for wet foam in the stringers is the console hold down screws over the teak trim that allowed water to migrate into the stringer foam. The console sits and is attached right on top on the stringers. Additionally, the floor rot patterns seam to mainfest in the rear corners of the console and migrate outward. Once the water gets into the foam, it migrates back to transom. Observing lots of rebuild threads, the major boo boo that AS did in construction was tabbing in the bare wood transom into the stringers without first glassing over the transom wood at the connection points. Glassing the bare wood first would have protected the wood from water damage once the foam got wet. They probably didn't realize or care this would happen 20 years later. This put bare wood in contact with future wet foam. Of course incorrectly sealed transducers and engines can also contribute to this. Not that any of this really matters but it does explain the situation.
-
Nice job. All of these observations make real good sense.
And a great idea for an effective cure. Two aft hatches should get rid of most of it, yet still be serviceable and look good in the future.
Bill, Mike's idea on the other thread using air in the stringers should help too.
-
I fully agree with the source of water in the stringers being the console hold down screws because when i removed the console i found dime sized holes, that once held screws . When i dug into the holes, i found the floor core was wet and that they appeared to penetrate the stringers. .
I like the idea of the hatch in the rear corners, but am not sure if I can get one close enough on the starboard side because of the control tunnel. Here is a pic of the area. Tell me what you where thinking.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb452/imonna196/4532dbff.jpg)
notice i have a deck plate all ready. it would be nice to overlap a new one with this if possible so i don't have two plates next to each other.
If i butt the plate up against the control tunnel edge, will i get over the stringer to the outside. :?: if so, I think your theory would work. Rip out foam, create a void, then let it continue to drain.to the void.
I also just read Mikes idea and i have access to the stringer on the star side, so this is an option. anyone else have any experience with this idea.
-
Well Bill,
Since you already have a deck plate, if you can get your arm in there, drill the bottom corners of the stringer girder with a 7/8-1" spade bit about two inches in front of the transom and an inch or so up as to not break the remaining integrity of the stringer bond to the floor or transom and let her drain. I'm still having a hard time believing the foam is saturated outboard of the stringer. If you get 80% of the water out you are good to go without cutting out anymore of the floor if you don't have to. There is nothing to lose and can save yourself a hole bunch of aggrevation. It seems you have a good idea of where the water came from so respond accordingly.
-
Fitz, i did exactly that. 1 inch hole, 1 inch up, and about 3 inches forward of the transom.
As soon as i cut it i got my finger in there and ripped out some foam, damp to touch and could compress some water out of it, but not totally saturated. i left it open for 3 days and no water ever ran out (with the boat pitched pretty good).
Bu default, I am thinking the only other culprit could be outside the stringer
-
I put under-deck access on my CCP and removed the foam outboard of the stringers. BTW - I used a narrow blade shovel to get the foam out... :shock: Here's a link for ya:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5395&p=35811&hilit=hatch#p35811 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5395&p=35811&hilit=hatch#p35811)
Hope this helps - good luck!
-
Great idea GF. My 19-6 may not have the room for a hatch, but if I can find a way, this would be my choice.
Anyone have any measurements on the width of the stringer. I can get a starting point of the stringers from inside the bilge and from there can see what is possible.
I can also measure the stringer up by the gas tank fill spout deck plate, but that will only work if the stringer is an unifrom width the whole length of the boat.
-
Bear in mind that Cap'n John's "Gone Fission" is a deep-vee 22-2 CCP. Greater beam, and deeper through the hull length. That hull easily accepts a quality floor hatch, even outboard. Have been fortunate to fish that boat, and can attest to the install.
Yours is shallower...but with your foam dig, still try a flat shovel. The secret will be how to dig it out, with no access, and no reasonable/clean entry point.
Time to back up...identify the problem...and potential solutions regarding this outboard foam.
Additionally we've had stringer discussion. My vote would be non-invasive water removal via gravity...accelerated by compressed air in front, suction at the stern.
-
yeah. i have stepped back the last few days. plenty of ideas, but still with no surity that the foam is soaked (although certainly seems the cause). Given the time of year I am pondering putting this off to April, May, june, since the fishing up here doesnt pick up to early summer.
However, I have had the boat pitched for 9 days. At this point, would it make sense to pop a 1/4 drill hole in the lower transom section where it access's the outside stringer/skin void and see what i get for water drainage. i can easily epoxy that in with a syringe if get nothing. If i get a fair amount of water then i know whether a deck access hole is the right move.
-
Like that you have it pitched, and are proactive. Keep posting as to your observations. We're a team here, we'll finalize this.
-
ok. Lets take 2 steps back. this whole thing started because the scuppers are submerged and we think the culprit is wet foam and wet core in floor and transom. Add in the fact that i had to install trim tabs to get on plane before 4200 rpm and it seems like an accurate theory.
Now, i noticed something helpful. i have a stain along the hull from where my boat was sitting in the water. It shows how the boat sits pretty clearly.
here is the picture and i would like peoples opinions on whether its position in the water verifies or refutes or is irrelevant to this discussion (for all I know it could me normal).
Note the stains location about a foot below the paint in the front (hard to see on the blue)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb452/imonna196/6e934317.jpg)
here is a close up of the back
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb452/imonna196/88b415f4.jpg)
let me know what you think.
Bill
-
I'd say that looks about right,the boat looks fairly level :scratch:
-
I'd say that looks about right,the boat looks fairly level :scratch:
I concur with Pete, the water line seems about right to me.
-
I'd say that looks about right,the boat looks fairly level :scratch:
I concur with Pete, the water line seems about right to me.
i agree somewhat, looks about the same as mine but i have a larger outboard hanging on the transom...
heres a pic of my boat before i installed the extra weight of the trolling motor, can clearly see the yellow stain...
(http://www.fordtruckclub.net/forum/photopost/files/2/2/4/dsc00744.jpg)
-
Based upon your previous observations: The boat runs WOT at 21 mph or thereabouts, and gets 3/4 mpg... something is wrong.
Maybe it could be the engine, or the prop. But fact is, if the ping-pong scuppers failed....as you have said...she'd be in danger of sinking.
Since were going back a step or two...the original post was a question related to scupper position/weight gain.
Although you thought we had reached closure...if there is again question...go weigh the boat, motor, trailer, and tow vehicle. Disconnect, and weigh the vehicle. Then do the math.
The hull weight is available here on the board. Add the motor weight (388 lbs?) plus the gas, plus the trailer, batts, etc. Remove everything else that you can prior to weighing, in order to have a true dry hull weight.
-
thanks Gran,
Since it seems like there wont be an easy way to examine the foam in that space outside the stringers, I am trying to put as many puzzle pieces together before i cut a hole that might not be needed. I am looking around for a truck scale I can access in case i go that route.
-
Hey, you're welcome my friend. I know what frustration feels like...and its no damn fun.
Let's go ahead and weigh it. Won't cost much, a little time more than anything.
Like we were saying...we're gonna solve this.
PS... Will ship that pump tomorrow fedex.
-
Thanks again for the pump. Dont spend the extra on fed-ex. Not going in anyh big water for a couple weeks.
I did some research and found this post on a 76 19-6 by lucasK. If the 76 and 79 have matching shapes, this really helps me
1) see where i can access the outsode of the stringer and
2) just how much space i have in there that may be foam filled
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww13 ... 8-1106.jpg (http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww138/LucasKrupa/Copy4ofCopyofIMG00011-20090628-1106.jpg)
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww13 ... _32144.jpg (http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww138/LucasKrupa/5448_1373149323820_1084382574_32144.jpg)
if these links dont work, search back to a rebuild post from august 10th 2010 called 1976 19'6" Aquasport
-
I made the call. although i am comfortable with my splashguards and plugged scupers, I decided that the extra fuel costs and displacement issues where worth solving. i decided to cut an exploratory hole in the floor and since I couldnt be sure where the outside of the stringer was, i decided to make the hole in the channel of the control tunnel.
Well, drilled a 1/2 inch hole, stuck my finger in it and nothing but water and foam,. Cut the hole bigger (2 by 4 inches) and in have 8 vertical inches of sopping wet foam.
No pictures yet. I hope to find out where the stringer ends and if there is space, cut a larger hole in the deck, to remove foam, then instgall a hatch. if i cant get that, i will make the current hole larger and try to dig out as much as i can.
More details to follow