Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => Flatback 22-2 Rebuilds => Topic started by: wrightex on February 07, 2010, 07:37:52 AM
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Turned out to be a 1970 model. I'll get pics up soon.
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(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/Aquasport001.jpg) (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/?action=view¤t=Aquasport001.jpg)(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/Aquasport002.jpg) (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/?action=view¤t=Aquasport002.jpg)original?
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Par(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/Aquasport004.jpg) (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/?action=view¤t=Aquasport004.jpg)tially enclosed transom....
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(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/Aquasport008.jpg) (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/daw57/1970%2022-2%20Aquasport/?action=view¤t=Aquasport008.jpg)
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OK, I'm not doing so good on photobucket, but I was able to get these pics up.
Anybody know if the bow light is original equipment?
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I am enclosing the transom on my 1970 22-2 and have aquired a Stainless Marine outboard bracket that I am thinking of using. The problem is it is too big. It's 36" long and pretty heavy.
I cant see hanging a 150 Yamaha 3' back off this boat. I have installed a 44 gal fuel tank underfloor, in front of console to help offset weight.
I was thinking of having it cut down but don't know all the pros/cons. Also thought about selling it and looking for something that's a better fit.
Any suggestions ?
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I am sure more members will jump in on this, but I had a "stainless Marine" single engine full width platform bracket on my last boat, 22 Chris Craft WA, and it was great, they actually provide flotation, of course I am not sure of the ratio of flotation to it's weight add to the boat, is your 44 Gal tank that you added in addition to an original, or the only fuel tank on the boat?
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44 gal tank is only tank. Boat had original console with above floor plastic tanks. I will be installing new console, with 2 batteries inside and a t-top. That will give me some weight offset I think. Live well will be under leaning post, again trying to move weight forward.
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With a closed transom you will need at least 30" to be able to tilt the motor all the way.
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brackets are a touchy subject on here so good luck. 36" is huge but if it offers floatation it should not be too bad. Biggest deal is what angle it was built at and if it matches the angle of the transome. ( so if its mounted to the boat is the swim platform level with the deck of the boat, meaning it was built at the angle of your transom). Its all a gamble till you put it in the water and see where your water line is and if your deck will drain or will you be standing in water with a few people in the boat. I run a 6" jack plate bracket (no floatation) which enables me to never have to lower my splash gate on my 222 ccp. I am in process now of moving fuel tank and console forward.
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With a closed transom you will need at least 30" to be able to tilt the motor all the way.
I have a 19 inch bracket and no problems tilting the motor all the way up, 30 inches is a long way back there.
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I noticed LilRichard asked in another post if the builder had glassed the underside of his plywood floor before installation.
I am in the process of rebuilding a 1970 22-2 (remember "Flatback in Boca" from March?) and am just about to install the floor.
I'm using 3/4" marine plywood.
I read somewhere on this site ( I think) that one school of thought on a plywood floor was to not seal the bottom, seal the edges and any openings. Then, if and when any moisture got to the plywood, through screwholes, etc. it would be able to dry out and therefore not rot. I guess I should get a few more opinions. What do you guys think?
And before the beatings start about pics, I've been taking them. Just saving them for your christmas present. Not sure what year.
Thanks.
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I noticed LilRichard asked in another post if the builder had glassed the underside of his plywood floor before installation.
I am in the process of rebuilding a 1970 22-2 (remember "Flatback in Boca" from March?) and am just about to install the floor.
I'm using 3/4" marine plywood.
I read somewhere on this site ( I think) that one school of thought on a plywood floor was to not seal the bottom, seal the edges and any openings. Then, if and when any moisture got to the plywood, through screwholes, etc. it would be able to dry out and therefore not rot. I guess I should get a few more opinions. What do you guys think?
And before the beatings start about pics, I've been taking them. Just saving them for your christmas present. Not sure what year.
Thanks.
This would be a bad idea. The bilge is moisture heaven so if anything the open underside of your floor would act more as a sponge.
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Seal it. Screw holes are no excuse. Every screw and opening should be sealed as well. Like said above, nothing exposed to the bilge is going to dry out.
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Part of the post I was talking about below.......
gran398 Post subject: Re: Have question on replacing original floorPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:48 pm
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: Wilmington, NC Dbisc, you were given good advice by the old-timer. Bunch of folk believe, myself included, that breathability is better than full encapsulation. That is, to leave the bottom unsealed.
Might have some swellage, delamination on the plywood, but to me is better than rot. When you seal it up completely, then put a few screws in....forget the 5200, the water is getting in, especially on the aft deck where one side or the other will always hold a bit of water. But then the moisture is held in from the bottom. no dry-out. Heavy rot, quick rot. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
I'd rather go natural on the underside, when using marine ply, or any other type of wood-derived deck material. Let the moisture have a place to go, with seepage and gravity, let it dry out. JMHO.
Dbisc, good post.
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Everyone has an opinion. You have to do what makes the most sense to you.
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Well, I was wrong. The boys are right. Just got off the phone with a professional builder. He says to make sure the wood is completely dry, and glass BOTH sides and all edges...completely encapsulated.
Sorry for the bad info. Best luck in your rebuild! gran
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Another thing to keep in mind is not all marine plywood is created equal... Not only should the glue be water proof but hat type of wood is used to make it? I used a high quality okoume marine plywood when I rebuilt my coffin cover. Here is a good read on marine plywood. http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/weblette ... ywood.html (http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-6/wl47-plywood.html)
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Glass on both sides is the way to go. It not only seals the wood, but adds substantially to overall strength. :thumleft:
See ya on the water!
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Rot is the reason i am not going to use plywood. I found a product called nyloboard that is made near my house in Covington Ga. It is made from recycled carpet fiber and will not rot. Check it out!
www.nyloboard.com (http://www.nyloboard.com)
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Regardless of the choice of material, the best case scenario is to not allow any moisture intrusion, read that water. Seal edges, seal holes (not just a squirt in the hole before you insert the screw, enough so that when you tighten down the screw, you have squeeze out from under the screw head), seal ANYTHING that can potentially allow water intrusion...period.
It doesn't mean you have to fanatical about proper installation, it just means you have to do it right... :thumleft:
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There's some misinterpretation being thrown around about not sealing the wood completely regarding one of my past posts- what I was told by several wood boat builders - that leave their boats in the water most of the year - was to coat the wood completely with thinned resin, then coat the sides & bottom of the decking with regular non-thinned resin, lay the deck out & screw down then glass over the top. I used this method on my 23' boat in 1995 & it's still solid. The boat stays outside year round, but I do keep the hatches open to let it breathe. I'd never leave just raw wood on the boat anywhere. Heres a pic of the wood from around 2004 when I cut out a hatch opening, 5/8" BC plywood, not even marine ply.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/dbiscayne/Robalo/deckxsxn1.jpg)
The previous owner had completely encapsulated the wood deck with glass, then screwed it down. The screws were not sealed well, water definitely got to the wood, his deck lasted about 5 years or less I'm guessing when I got hold of the boat, by then the deck was mush. The extra layer of 24oz roven he used on the bottom side didn't help much strength wise, sealing up all the screw holes is key.
I do think that if water had never gotten to the wood it would've been fine wether it's glassed on both sides or just the top.
The wood by itself is plenty strong, the glass is only there to protect it, you really don't need to glass both sides for strength. Foam core then yes both sides but thats a completely different scenario. 3/4" marine ply is overkill for the deck, 5/8" is enough unless you've got some huge unsupported areas in which case you should build some kind of reinforcement grids to the deck. The factory 19' boats came with 3/8" ply.
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Don't use screws and stick the deck down with 5200 or epoxy.
I'm going to stick my 3/4 coosa floor with 5200 and weight it on the stringers and bulk heads till it cures
Matt
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Don't use screws and stick the deck down with 5200 or epoxy.
I'm going to stick my 3/4 coosa floor with 5200 and weight it on the stringers and bulk heads till it cures
Matt
I am no expert but i dont think 5200 is the way to go. Most builders use polyester resin mixed with a thickener to attach the decks to the stringers. 5200 is not a rigid adhesive compared to the polyester paste. Of course I am not a builder so this is just a semi educated opinion from a guy that has rebuilt only one boat in his life
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Thanks guys for all the advice. Glad I asked the question!
The bottom of the floor now has a fresh layer of 1708. Hope to get the floor in this weekend, weather permitting. It will be fully encapsulated. Planning on using 5200 to bond to stringers. I'll probably use some screws to secure it until it bonds, then remove screws.
gran398 - you could sell ice to an eskimo. Had me convinced of the "old boat builder" way. I'll be watching you from now on. :)
I know, pics, pics, pics - sheesh....
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I guess the new question is what to use to bond the floor to the stringers/bulkheads?
My adviser (Beeerman) recommends epoxy, but I've got 5200 available. :scratch:
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I have seen many builders weighting down the deck with whatever is handy to hold it down while the "deck bonding agent "cures,rather than put screws in their new deck
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thickened epoxy to bed it and countersunk screws every foot or so. you want to get squeeze out of the epoxy everywhere. screws will do a better, more even job than weights. i use square head stainless deck screws. leave em in, fill the heads and glass over them
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A lot of folks use 5200, it is more flexible and is a permanent bond as well. I'm not knocking the epoxy route, it will work fine too.
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Thanks guys for all the advice. Glad I asked the question!
The bottom of the floor now has a fresh layer of 1708. Hope to get the floor in this weekend, weather permitting. It will be fully encapsulated. Planning on using 5200 to bond to stringers. I'll probably use some screws to secure it until it bonds, then remove screws.
gran398 - you could sell ice to an eskimo. Had me convinced of the "old boat builder" way. I'll be watching you from now on. :)
I know, pics, pics, pics - sheesh....
Hey thanks.....I love eskimos....and penguins.
:wink:
You know, as JJ said, there are two sides to every coin. I remember my old wooden boats 30 years back, drying them out, and dumping copper napthanate in the bilge over the winter. The old boatbuilder way. Some guys glassed their bilges...quick death.
Nothing wrong with the old boatbuider way. And as mentioned, if fully sealed, but an improper install....she rots out double-quick.
Anyhow, you may still need to keep an eye out... :wink:
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For my rebuild, have been researching/obtaining opinions from various re-builders (Tampa area and Carolina) regarding the sole adhesive/bedding material. Epoxy and 5200 are not in discussion. Hold off as yet, will post their thoughts when gather all.
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Here is what two of four advise so far:
http://www.itwplexus.com/industries/marine_app.cfm (http://www.itwplexus.com/industries/marine_app.cfm)
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There's some misinterpretation being thrown around about not sealing the wood completely regarding one of my past posts- what I was told by several wood boat builders - that leave their boats in the water most of the year - was to coat the wood completely with thinned resin, then coat the sides & bottom of the decking with regular non-thinned resin, lay the deck out & screw down then glass over the top. I used this method on my 23' boat in 1995 & it's still solid. The boat stays outside year round, but I do keep the hatches open to let it breathe. I'd never leave just raw wood on the boat anywhere. Heres a pic of the wood from around 2004 when I cut out a hatch opening, 5/8" BC plywood, not even marine ply.
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/dbiscayne/Robalo/deckxsxn1.jpg)
The previous owner had completely encapsulated the wood deck with glass, then screwed it down. The screws were not sealed well, water definitely got to the wood, his deck lasted about 5 years or less I'm guessing when I got hold of the boat, by then the deck was mush. The extra layer of 24oz roven he used on the bottom side didn't help much strength wise, sealing up all the screw holes is key.
I do think that if water had never gotten to the wood it would've been fine wether it's glassed on both sides or just the top.
The wood by itself is plenty strong, the glass is only there to protect it, you really don't need to glass both sides for strength. Foam core then yes both sides but thats a completely different scenario. 3/4" marine ply is overkill for the deck, 5/8" is enough unless you've got some huge unsupported areas in which case you should build some kind of reinforcement grids to the deck. The factory 19' boats came with 3/8" ply.
No misinterpretation. Light resin (sealer) underneath (no glass underneath). Glass on top for protection/water turn. Looks great. And, its sixteen years old...natural crown...and not marine ply...wow. Something to think about....those old boys...
:wink:
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...natural crown...
One more point from my old dusty knowledge base. Glassing one side of plywood will dang sure give you a natural crown, but on the wrong side. Old bass boat restore years ago I had me a nice replacement deckr cutout. The fit was great. I put a couple of coats of resin on both sides, at least ten coats on the edges, then glass mat on the top side. I had to go out of town a couple of weeks and when I got back the plywood had about a 4" reverse crown it. I ended up having to flip the glassed side down and glass the other side and use that side for the top. This also happens in woodworking when applying a veneer. The info is out there on the web and in books but I was my hard-headed self and read the books afterward, not before starting the project. I would suggest getting it attached quickly if you are only glassing one side.
Good luck and keep us updated.
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You're so right about the crown effect! My first attempt at building a hatch ended up with a pretty good bow to it. Fortunately the deck was screwed down to the stringers then glassed & glassed to the sides, still sits nice & flat. I'm pretty sure I didn't put any kind of glue on the deck to stringer connection, just a big screw about every 2 feet, maybe more at the corners. If I ever have to do it again I'd probably use thickened resin & a less screws.
On the type of wood issue, I've been told, & think I've read the specs somewhere, that BC grade exterior ply uses similar water proof glue to marine ply, & that the biggest difference is the finish (marine ply being much nicer), the marine ply has more plys per thickness thus being stronger (7 vs. 5 in a 5/8" thick piece), and the marine doesn't have any interior voids. For my use on a deck that isn't spanning large gaps it seems the BC is working just fine, now if building an entire boat out of wood that'd be a different story. I have used marine ply in the past, the prep work is less & you don't have to pick through the pile at the local hardware store to find a nice flat piece.
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A little "OEM" info here on how floors are installed.
If, for instance, the floor (sole) is part of the deck mold, Arjay polyester bonding putty is the bonding method of choice. Plexus is only used for glassing in stringer grids (if that's the design). The main reason is that most builders these days offer at least a 10 year warranty on the deck and hull. Should a hull replacement issue come up, the deck and hull CAN be separated (albeit with a bit of force!) to the extent that the deck can be saved and re-installed on the new hull. This type of warranty repair is done more often than the average person might think. If Plexus were used as the bonding agent, well, the only way to separate the hull and deck would be in pieces. On top of that, Plexus is prohibitively expensive in comparison to polyester putty, especially in the quantities that are required to deck a boat...
Now, if it is simply a floor that is being installed, well, this is the way Proline does their Pro-Lite series, which are built with out a deck. The floors and foredecks are fabbed from Coosa Bluewater 20. The panels are chopped on both sides, allowed to kick-off, scuffed with a grinder, them put down with the same poly putty. Once the putty kicks off, the edges, or seams where the hull meets the floor, are filled with more putty, smoothed and faired in, then the entire interior gets splatter-coated. Plexus would be way out of the cost picture due to the fact that PL wanted to keep costs as minimal as possible. That was also the reason the 20 was speced in as opposed to the Bluewater 26, which is used on the "normal" Prolines...
All that being said, there is no doubt that Plexus is a superior adhesive to polyester putty. However, when I have had to un-deck boats, I usually end up with gaping holes cut into the hullsides to access the interior stringers, used a sawsall to cut through as much of the putty as I could reach, then gotten a 6' pry bar with a helper on the 20 lb. sledge to get the two parts to separate. Short of running the boat into a seawall at 30 MPH, the 2 parts joined with polyester putty are not going to come apart...at least not with a lot of help!
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Hey, great advice...am forwarding this to my rebuilder. Thanks, S
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I`m not trying to re-direct the dialog by any means just one question. When I recore the front hatches on the 22-2, how do I keep the hatches from bowing while the resin and glass cures? Wax paper, cinder blocks and prayer? Thanks!
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I`m not trying to re-direct the dialog by any means just one question. When I recore the front hatches on the 22-2, how do I keep the hatches from bowing while the resin and glass cures? Wax paper, cinder blocks and prayer? Thanks!
Fitz,
The problem with hatches is kind of two-fold. One, you have a small area, and the curing effects (heat, shrinkage, etc.) have a much more pronounced effect as they have less mass to exert their forces on. Second, because of the inexact science of the lam schedule, the mixing of the catlyist and resin, and the slight disparities in glass ratios from one side to the other, you can have a side of the hatch which has more thermodynamic forces than the other, and the result is the uneven aspect of the finished product, the "bow". Almost all hatches have a slight, almost imperceptable bow to them. What we used to do with the ones that had an "exagerated" bow was to place them on a good solid pedestal that supported the center of the hatch, then place lead at each end, out in the FL sunshine. Place a support under each end you want to "bend" so that the hatch will only flex so far. Over the course of a day, they'd usually straighten out.
Since no one but boat builders have lead ingots sitting around, cement blocks work fine.
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I'm no pro but I helped my buddy re-do his two gas tank covers on his Grady-White. They would sag and pop when stepped on. They had a poorly sealed plywood backing. All we did was cut 1/2 plywood as large as would fit but not interfere with the covers going back in place. We sealed the ply with resin while grinding down the under side of the hatches. We put the hatches upside down on his garage floor and used thickened resin to attach the plywood to the hatch. We piled everything we could find on top of the plywood. Blocks, anvil, anything that had weight. Take a rag with acetone and clean up the squeeze out to save grinding later. His came out fine and those covers are larger than most hatches. It's been three years and still holding.
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JJ, did the same type of repair on my old hydra, worked fine, but instead of poly used West. One of the reasons I keep old batteries around is to use them for weights.
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I usually use West Systems Epoxy but he is even cheaper than me. I have a helluva time getting polyester resin mixed correctly because I never measure. Poly usually kicks off before I'm done or never. Ah, a couple more drops won't hurt. :oops: :roll: I did finally learn to use shallow containers instead of deep ones. Pot life is much longer because the heat doesn't build up as fast. Epoxy is more work and money to paint over but if you use the right primer it's no big deal. I have never used vinylester resin and I think there is a new one out now.
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All we did was cut 1/2 plywood as large as would fit but not interfere with the covers going back in place. We sealed the ply with resin while grinding down the under side of the hatches. We put the hatches upside down on his garage floor and used thickened resin to attach the plywood to the hatch. We piled everything we could find on top of the plywood. Blocks, anvil, anything that had weight. Take a rag with acetone and clean up the squeeze out to save grinding later. His came out fine and those covers are larger than most hatches. It's been three years and still holding.
Agreed - one other thing that helps is to drill a few small holes in the core before bedding, helps alleviate air bubbles. I also did the "pile everything in the garage on top method", but have recently been vacuum bagging small parts and would do that next time for hatches (assuming I would ever rebuild another boat, lol).
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One of the reasons I keep old batteries around is to use them for weights.
That's what I keep telling the wife too :lol:
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one other thing that helps is to drill a few small holes in the core before bedding, helps alleviate air bubbles.
Great tip. I never thought of that.
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Thanks for info guy`s! Now I just have to wait until it`s warm enough to glass, not looking good in December right now. I would need a Pratt and Wittney jet engine to get my shop warm enough to glass right now!
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A buddy of mine is in the boat repair biz. and when my work is slow I help him some times. I've done some floors with him and we cut the plywood to size, put resin on the bottom and edges, wait for it to set up and then we screw it down ( counter sinking the screws ) and glass over it. Depending on the application we will use 5200 on the top of the stringers before we screw it down but if you space the screws at about 3 or 4 inches it shouldn't be that necessary. Once we did a 25' stieger craft or Parker I don't remember, but and I was amazed to see that they just nailed the deck down with galvanized spiral nails, no glue. The boat was at least 10 years old and the reason the deck went bad was that it was stored for years with the bow down and water and ice was always pooling up against the pilot house. Other wise it would still be good today. So this is the other extreme but it worked for them.
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Mod. Edit: 09 May 2011
In an effort to condense several topics dealing basically with the same theme, I have merged Wrightex's 22-2 Flatback rebuild under a topic with the same name thus keeping his original pics and various questions as he proceeds toward completion. Hopefully he'll read this and post his updates to this same topic. I look forward to seeing the finished product, especially with that unique bow light/cleat system. :thumleft: