Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => Flatback 22-2 Rebuilds => Topic started by: fighting irish45 on April 23, 2011, 09:14:40 PM
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Whats up guys, as you know I am brand new to this forum and damn glad I found it. I am trying to restore my dad's 1970's (need to find registration to figure out exact model and year) 22' CC Aquasport. Here is my problem, the boat has been sitting in the backyard for 15yrs+. The first issue is the crack in the top of the outer transom. Obviously due to the core being saturated frozen then expanded than cracked skin. My question is, should I cut the skin out from behind the transom where the crack is or listen to my friend Ken (who owns and builds Mirage boats) by cutting the deck 18-20'' forward of that inner transom and replace the core that way. Ken says by removing the transom skin it will take away from the strength of the glass. Since he does them all the time I want to believe him but not sure he understands the type of boat. its seems the sides of the boat are one piece (inner side and outer side of boat)
What do you guys think???
I'm having issues getting my pics uploaded
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Welcome aboard, Irish! :thumright:
I wouldn't even attempt to answer your specific question, but there will be some other members along shortly who could probably tell you.
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The proper way is from the inside. Yes, it's a ton more work.
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To me its twice as much work to do one from the outside with all the fairing you have to do to the hullsides. If either way is done properly then I think the strength difference is negligible.
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Welcome aboard FI :!: :!:
The crack you're talking about may just be the cap where it meets the transom - very common - need to see pics to know for sure.
Follow the info in this post to learn how to post pics - some of the screens have changed but you'll get the idea.
http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3366
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(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9900-2.jpg)
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9901-2.jpg)
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9902-2.jpg)
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(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9905-2.jpg)
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(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9908-2.jpg)
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(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9915-2.jpg)
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9916-2.jpg)
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(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9918-2.jpg)
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9900-1.jpg)
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Ok that was a nice little process, anyway I posted some cracks on the deck just to see if anyone thinks they need to be attended to. Also I'm not sure i understand how I would make cuts on the deck and get to the transom?? Wasn't explained very well to me over the phone so I'm not on the same page. Can anyone elaborate?
The transom pic isn't great but it is cracked on the top from port to starboard.
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Welcome!
Looks like she's a late sixties 22-2 Flatback. The forward casting deck has been modified.
Depending on how much you want to spend, and since she was your dad's boat, etc...sure don't want to give you tough news, but...from the photos, looks like she's going to need at least a partial rebuild. That's where you're buddy can help.
Good news is, she's a Flatback! Extremely desirable hull.
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Its not tough news, I know and expected her to need work. Honestly I could probably work on her for the next 2 yrs and not be completely finished. What do you mean about "partial rebuild''?
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Hey Fighting Irish,
Well for starters you have a classic Flatback! Not newer than 71`,72' was the first year of the V bottoms. What did she used to have for power? Twin 55 OMC's maybe? You have to cut the floor in front of the transom to allow enough access to cut out the wood core and cut where the stringers connect to the transom. You are going to find issues with wet foam in the stringer boxes that you are going to have to deal with, so be prepared for this to be a little more than just a transom job. All that wet foam needs to be removed and the stringers dryed out before you can think about reglassing them to the new transom.
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Then once you open her up....the wet foam just keeps on going....and going...just like the bunny :lol:
So then you're gonna want to completely rework the stringers, put in a new floor, tank, wiring, cleats, lights, mood lights, GPS map with interface, radar, side-scan, autopilot, 800 watt stereo, etc., etc.
Then you'll be an addict like the rest of us, a card-carrying member of "Aquasporters Anonymous".
And your wife will call you names... :roll:
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Nice Flattie :salut:
You might consider using the pour method to redo the transom. Remove the top piece, take a chainsaw and slide it in between the 2 sides of the transom and chew the rotted wood out. Keep at it until all the wood is out and then pour a synthetic transom in. There are several examples of doing this on the site - do a search.
You may have to still do the stringers and floor but you'll be hard pressed to get a better transom than poured and the mold is the front and back glass.
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Hey Fighting Irish,
Well for starters you have a classic Flatback! Not newer than 71`,72' was the first year of the V bottoms. What did she used to have for power? Twin 55 OMC's maybe? You have to cut the floor in front of the transom to allow enough access to cut out the wood core and cut where the stringers connect to the transom. You are going to find issues with wet foam in the stringer boxes that you are going to have to deal with, so be prepared for this to be a little more than just a transom job. All that wet foam needs to be removed and the stringers dryed out before you can think about reglassing them to the new transom.
Twin 60 evinrudes
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I drew up a little diagram in paint. Let me know if this is what you guys are talking about where I should be making the cut(s). When I find the saturated foam between the stringers I guess I have to replace it right? In case you guys haven't figured it out yet this will be my first restoration job.
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/aquasportpaint.png)
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T
So then you're gonna want to completely rework the stringers, p
What do you mean about "reworking the stringers"?
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Excellent. Twin 3 cyl. 'rudes.
That hull of yours has pedigree.
Gotta like that.
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Excellent. Twin 3 cyl. 'rudes.
That hull of yours has pedigree.
Gotta like that.
Do you think I should use a circ. saw or something else to cut the glass deck? If you look back to some of my pics (of the boat) you will see the white deck and where the sides of the boat start it turns green. Should I cut the green or just around the white part of the deck?
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First off, were glad that you've joined our board.
Getting late, so will try and be concise.
You own a true classic. Your hull was the first Aquasport ever produced... made specifically for the Bahamian government, per their requisites.
We urge you and others new to CA to review as much as possible the Gallery, Rebuilds, etc. to garner info for your ride. Everything discussed has been mentioned before. If the board considers it unfinished....it remains open for discussion. And that pretty much is applicable to any topic.
Back to your Flatback. Your first thought will be how she should finish up. Do you want her near original, with twin outboards mounted straight on the transom, like Fitz and me?
Or, do you see her closed transom, single on a bracket. Tampa style tarpon boat, sighting tower, etc. The Flatback lends itself well to that use. That's why she's so valuable in that market.
You have a great boat. Hang with us!
To best advise...get someone knowledgeable to take a look at her. Someone without a monetary interest.
In the meantime...don't cut anything. She's been the same for 15 years, she can hang a few weeks longer. You own the original...good deal!
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First off, were glad that you've joined our board.
Getting late, so will try and be concise.
You own a true classic. Your hull was the first Aquasport ever produced... made specifically for the Bahamian government, per their requisites.
We urge you and others new to CA to review as much as possible the Gallery, Rebuilds, etc. to garner info applicable to your ride. Everything discussed has been mentioned before. If the board still considers it unfinished....it remains open for discussion. And that pretty much is applicable to any topic.
Back to your Flatback. Your first thought will be how she should finish up. Do you want her near original, with twin outboards mounted straight on the transom? Like Fitz and me?
Or, do you see her closed transom. with a bracket, Tampa style tarpon boat, sighting tower, etc. The Flatback lends itself well to that use. That's why she's so valuable in that market.
You have a great boat. Hang with us!
To best advise...get someone knowledgeable to take a look at her. Someone without a monetary interest.
In the meantime...don't cut anything.
Thanks for the advice, I live in NJ (hope that doesn't change everyones opinion on me) and I am a charter captain. I was thinking of restoring her and using her in the back bay and out front. i intend on putting a single OB directly on the transom. Was looking at a 150 e-tec, I have had some people look at her and a friend down there (fla) who is the owner of Mirage boats is telling me to cut 18" forward of the transom. He is supposed to call back with more detail once he has looked at my pics. In the mean time I found this site and wanted other opinions.
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I am going to hold off on the cutting but I drew this up so I wanted to post it and get a few opinions
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/aquaspotpaint2.png)
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Cool with NJ...my daughter lives there...folks are great there.
The Mirage 29...later became the 32SF...real nice boat, nice layout. Way before its time, quad bunks underneath the cockpit sole, with head. And ran like a dream.
Many power options. Twin gas inboards. Twin diesel inboards. Single diesel inboard. Twin outboards.
Then was discontinued, somewhere between $4 gallon gas and outdated design (3-4 years ago).
Still worth good money. Nice boat, great entry, great ride.
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Typically you take a circular saw and use the side of the boat as a guide. Set the depth of the blade just a lttle deeper then the thickness of the floor - start with 1/2". You keep the side of the saw closest to the blade against the side of the boat which will leave about 2" as a ledge to tie back into with the new floor. You have a cable trough that you probably want to save also unless you're going to do a complete floor replacement. So you would want to leave a 2" ledge around it too.
I think I would start by pouring a new transom, filling all the holes in the transom and drilling new drains wider then the original since they are too narrow for modern motor mounts. Then I would mount the engine and use the boat until you absolutely need to tear the floor up. If the floor feels like you're going to step through it right now then you have to tear it out now.
My $.02
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18 inches is fine, that should give you plenty of room. What gran is talking about once you open it up you might find the stringers delaminated from the hull in spots. You will have to grind these areas and retab them to the hull. Once the stringers are defoamed they can be a little flimsy so you might have to reinforce them with glass to give more strength. Inside the stringers the factory poured open cell foam, it is usually soaked with water. You then have to cut the tops off the stringers and dig all of it out. No one will know if they used foam around the stringers until you open it up. Using a circ saw can be messy and if you have it a little too deep you could reach the cement material that they used to bond the deck to the stringers. This stuff will very quickly ruin a blade.
By the way, you have a really cool hull!
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Was referring to the foam inside the stringers. Once he cuts the floor in the indicated position...to install a new transom from the inside he will expose the ends of the stringers.
Based upon the '73 we're rebuilding (and to look at it, it looked decent) the foam at the bottom of the stringers was sopping wet. That's what Fitz was also referring to.
Try the exploratory cut and see what she looks like.
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From what I can tell the deck is fine, there are no soft spots where I feel i'm going to step threw it. I hope the stringers aren't delaminated but there is a possibility. I know she is an old boat but I feel bad cutting her
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I don't blame you about cutting her especially if the floor is still good. Maybe RickK's poured transom idea deserves a second look as an interim step. The most difficult process with owning one of these boats is to decide how far you want go with repairs and upgrades. A transom is obviously a key component to floating this thing again. So one way or the other it needs to be addressed. These things have a way of becoming a Pandora's box very quickly once you start cutting them open. I am all about keeping them as original as possible but thats not always practical. I still have a usable hull in very nice shape with a solid floor, but my transom will be the first to go in a year or two and I will be making the decision to spend the money for the full monty rebuild. My $.02
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Fitz and others,
Thanks guys, with all the replies I really appreciate the concern and help. I teach so right now I am on my spring break, I have started doing some odds and ends on the boat (no cutting yet). I had a few guys come over to check her out and give there opinions and despite what i was trying to accomplish there is no easy way of doing it. The transom is definitely a concern that needs to be addressed before she would hit the water. I have a feeling the deck needs attention as well, despite me saying there isn't any soft spots I was wrong. I guess the real question is how far I want to go and how much $ i want to spend. I will keep my viewers posted
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Typically you take a circular saw and use the side of the boat as a guide. Set the depth of the blade just a lttle deeper then the thickness of the floor - start with 1/2". You keep the side of the saw closest to the blade against the side of the boat which will leave about 2" as a ledge to tie back into with the new floor. You have a cable trough that you probably want to save also unless you're going to do a complete floor replacement. So you would want to leave a 2" ledge around it too.
I think I would start by pouring a new transom, filling all the holes in the transom and drilling new drains wider then the original since they are too narrow for modern motor mounts. Then I would mount the engine and use the boat until you absolutely need to tear the floor up. If the floor feels like you're going to step through it right now then you have to tear it out now.
My $.02
If you want to run her this summer...RickK's poured transom makes good sense. The transom is now good....can deal with the deck and stringers later, and will have something new and sound to work to.
Just make sure to dig it all out....after the chainsaw, get a long screwdriver/claw and get it all out... leaf blower, good light, then a heat lamp. Epoxy resin or polyester resin won't bond to wet/damp anything. Pay special attention to the very bottom, where she'll be wet. Hopefully you can get her indoors for this work. Dry her out before the pour.
Took a closer look at your pics. She's had attention in the past. The color scheme is reversed. The green floor gel is on the sides, the white gel is on the floor. When the casting deck was redone, the forward floor may have been replaced as well. Good news.
Saw the 60 Triumphs laying off the stern...some of us here love the twins. That's special.
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Saw the 60 Triumphs laying off the stern...some of us here love the twins. That's special.
Agreed, but here's my idea of a 60s Triumph twin.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff108/r-berlin/triumph-bonneville-650.jpg)
Sorry for the thread steal. :oops:
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:thumright: :thumright:
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How COOL is that boat? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:.
My first guess is that shes a 19-1. All the 19-1's that i've seen have the butterfly deck hatches, the square storage areas port/starboard under the deck and the ever famous Green interior and almost a 0 degree deadrise (aka-flatback). Its hard to tell from your pics, but she appears truly flat. Is she?? Take a look at these 2 links http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... 500/page/1 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/4206/sort/1/size/medium/cat/500/page/1) and another http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... ppuser/419 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/419) (She looks similar) I also think the casting platform is 100% original. If you boat is a 22-2, and has a 0 degree deadrise, I would say shes one of the "First" flatback's ever built. Wouldn't you guys agree???
Can you take a tape measure to her??? Just to verify the length? :salut:
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Good eye! Especially with the reversed color....And the casting platform is the same too.
Good eye!
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How COOL is that boat? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:.
My first guess is that shes a 19-1. All the 19-1's that i've seen have the butterfly deck hatches, the square storage areas port/starboard under the deck and the ever famous Green interior and almost a 0 degree deadrise (aka-flatback). Its hard to tell from your pics, but she appears truly flat. Is she?? Take a look at these 2 links http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... 500/page/1 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/4206/sort/1/size/medium/cat/500/page/1) and another http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... ppuser/419 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/419) (She looks similar) I also think the casting platform is 100% original. If you boat is a 22-2, and has a 0 degree deadrise, I would say shes one of the "First" flatback's ever built. Wouldn't you guys agree???
Can you take a tape measure to her??? Just to verify the length? :salut:
She's a 22.2
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Hey guy`s,
Just for the record, Aquasport only made the 22-2 as a flatback, the 19-1 if you recall had a very slight deadrise with the little pad about a foot wide in the center. Thats how you can tell the difference when looking at a stern picture.
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Very mysterious. Does appear to have the same butterfly casting deck as the 19-1 photo. And the reversed interior gel.
Yet she seems from the photos to be a 22-2 flatback. Was just re-checking all the old flatback photos we have here in archives. None show a good pic of the casting platform.
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Found one http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... ppuser/152 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/152) Mystery solved.
Anyhow you have a really cool boat there. I hope you keep her as close to original as possible
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Maybe those changes were in later models. Those 60 Evinrudes laying on the ground behind her are 1971; chances are they have been on there her entire life which is so rare. Other than being electric shift; I bet they could still be made to run. Wouldnt that be cool.
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How COOL is that boat? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:.
My first guess is that shes a 19-1. All the 19-1's that i've seen have the butterfly deck hatches, the square storage areas port/starboard under the deck and the ever famous Green interior and almost a 0 degree deadrise (aka-flatback). Its hard to tell from your pics, but she appears truly flat. Is she?? Take a look at these 2 links
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/tfruits45/Zi6_9914-2.jpg)
The 191 have the reverse step at the rear - this bay is flat.
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the back end of my 19-1, green sides & white deck & has the butterfly hatches on the casting deck.
Those rust stains coming from the cleat bolts were from water migrating all the way over there, the inner layer of transom wood was wet & the boat hadn't been in the water for at least 5 years.
If you're gonna replace the transom I do believe you're going to have to cut some of the deck away no matter which method you choose. The way the stringers are built theres just no way you can tie a poured transom into them without good access.
Check out the second pic.
The inner skin of the transom does not go all the way down to the hull of the boat, it stops at the deck, so if you clean out all the old wood with the chain saw method you have a huge gap to fill between the deck & hull to keep the pourable transom stuff from filling up the hull.
And what you see below where the deck used to be is just a thin layer of mat on the transom wood that will definitely get destroyed when you remove the old wood, and no glass on the inner wood at all inside the stringers (they covered the wood with glass after the stringers were placed) so the pourable transom will definitely flow into the stringers, and whatever water is in the stringer foam will keep things wet.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/231050_2028939487713_1370857532_3618931_5484450_n.jpg)
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/225862_2028955928124_1370857532_3618944_4600654_n.jpg)
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If you're gonna replace the transom I do believe you're going to have to cut some of the deck away no matter which method you choose. The way the stringers are built theres just no way you can tie a poured transom into them without good access.
I start by apologizing - I did not read every post in the thread. But if you're trying to do a transom rebuild and not to cut out the deck, you could always cut the rear of the transom out and go in that way, right? Like this:
(http://www.forumpictureprocessor.com/pictureprocessor/images/22%20chris%20craft%2087-1%20006.jpg)
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Yep that would work if there was an inner skin tied to the stringers below the deck like your picture shows. My boat didn't have any kind of decent fiberglass skin below the deck just a single layer of mat to seal the wood & it was pretty much crumbling when I got to it. Without the skin there already I think it'd be a real pain to connect a new transom core to the stringers without access through the deck in front of the transom, it's do-able but if it were me I'd be cutting the deck, even some nice big access holes to get in there & tab the transom to the stringers & hull. You could leave the inner skin above the deck alone, it's tied into the sides of the boat pretty good, & bond the transom core to it.
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Yep that would work if there was an inner skin tied to the stringers below the deck like your picture shows. My boat didn't have any kind of decent fiberglass skin below the deck just a single layer of mat to seal the wood & it was pretty much crumbling when I got to it.
Ahhh... I understand. Most 222s I have seen have glass all the way down... but then again we also always see aberrations. I would suggest the route from the rear, and you'll probably get lucky.
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dbiscayne,
Every old Aquasport has the same transom rust-bleed issues. The fix is to change the cleat location to the sides, on glassed-in pads.
The rebuilder was adamant in leaving the outer transom fiberglass skin. And that was all that was left. The stringers were cut forward of the transom, and approx. eight inches removed. Then after the new Coosa transom was installed, stringers rebuilt to the transom.
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sounds familiar.
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/223306_2053987313893_1370857532_3658961_3407585_n.jpg)
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/29719_1488074846435_1370857532_2527151_5451675_n.jpg)
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Exactly where we were three weeks back, except your stringer configuration is a little different. We glassed the stringers inside and out, rebuilt the stringers to the transom, filled them with closed-cell foam, then topped them with high density perm-alloy(sp?) then glassed that over.
Good clean work db.
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thanks- i'm still a few steps behind you and seem to have very little free time lately. Getting the foam leveled out was a lot of work, still not perfect but it's close enough, rounded the edges & was going to cap them with bi dir 1708, then a couple layers of uni 13 oz, then another 1708?
I also tabbed the inside of the stringers to the hull, that alone really stiffened them up & should keep them from separating.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/222920_2054851975509_1370857532_3660218_2674868_n.jpg)
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/222920_2054852015510_1370857532_3660219_1632148_n.jpg)