Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Electrical => Topic started by: cdoyal on August 29, 2009, 02:44:48 PM
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Hi Guys-
Just picked up a new toy and am new to Aquasport. I bought the boat primarily for diving the Great Lakes and I think it'll do great. It was a saltwater boat so there are some corrosion issues with the electronics. The lights, fuel gauge, and tilt guage don't work so I'll be chasing a few of those issues for awhile. Any suggestions as to where to start looking for the fuel gauge problem? Any known issues to watch out for with this age boat? It has the 225 Johnson Ocean Runner. I had the compression checked and all cylinders were within 5%.
Thanks!
Chris
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Welcome the the site Chris! Most Chris's I have known in the Great Lakes have "Craft" as a last name :roll: A 245 should be a nice Great Lakes boat. Diving? I hope not in Superior - that 45 degree water is really cold!! :colors:
For your fuel gauge problems - check the fuel tank sender. Often they fail, get stuck, or the float gets a leak and is no longer a float (more like a sinker)... The gauge simply reads resistance, so usually the gauge is OK and the sender or the wiring is the problem. You can get a new Teleflex (Part Number 90434P) one that adjusts for any tank size for $30-40 at any decent marine supply. :wink:
A '97 year model 245 is not really old enough to have big problems - assuming it was maintained in some way. Service the motor (thermostats, lower unit lube, new water pump, plugs if needed, etc.), replace the gas filter/water separator, do the standard cleanup, and look in every nook and cranny - fix what you find and you should be in good shape.
Hope this helps - see ya on the water - or under it!
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Welcome aboard cdoyal :!: :!:
I would start by cleaning the ground planes located throughout the boat - SeaBob4 will more than likely pipe in here to tell you where to look for them since he built your boat.
Ground and salt are a forever love/hate friendship.
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Chris,
It appears that you have a "ground" issue. Put a meter on a known "good" ground, then see if you have continuity on the ground posts of your gauges. Chances are, you have a loose ground, or a ground wire that has corroded beyond repair.
On your boat, there are 2 ground busses, one on the starboard side aft, by the main breaker box, and one on the console, inside facing aft. Check continuity between the 2, as well as continuity between all grounds. Typically, when a series of instruments, or appliances, are not working, it is a ground issue.
One other thing you might do. Remove one of the ground wires and cut the ring terminal off, then strip back some insulation. See if the wire, which should be shiny copper, is black. That is corrosion, not a good thing.
Report back, sir.
Bob C
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Wow. Thanks for all the help guys! I'll definitely check out the ground issue before I start replacing things. Any idea which cover to open to start looking for the sending unit?
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The aft pie plate just forward of your fishbox reveals your sender as well as your pickup.
Bob C
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Your trim/tilt gauge sender is probably also stuck.
Tilt the engine all the way up. On the port side of the mounting bracket you will see a black, plastic lever with a coiled spring. This sender needs to be free moving. Spray some WD-40 on the coil spring and shaft and s-l-ow-l-y rotate the lever back and forth until it moves freely. Common occurrence on these motors.
Good luck :thumleft:
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I can tell this forum is going to be wonderful and I will be buying many pints at the cyberspace pub!
I'll check all these things out and report back soon.
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Update:
The trim/tilt sending unit was indeed stuck. A little WD-40 and it works great.
Stereo, VHF, horn, baitwell pump, fishbox pump all work. When I turn on both bilge pumps, neither seem to work - no humming.
Both ground bars show white corrosion but nothing really jumps out at me. I'll check continuity tonight when I check to
see which lights work.
Thanks again for your help guys.
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It always surprises me how unreliable bilge pumps can be, especially since they're so important. I rewired everything in my boat before installing 2 brand new bilge pumps, stored the boat for a few months over the winter, bathed both pumps in WD-40 prior, and when I checked to see if they worked when it began getting warmer, they had both failed. Good power and ground to both. In either case, it shouldn't be difficult to determine if it's bad wiring or bad pumps.
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Another update:
Port marker and anchor lights work fine. Starboard doesn't but the bulb is fine.
The spreader light and the two little aft courtesy lights come on but wink on and off.
There's a lot of water in the forward bilge so I'll start bailing and see if I can chase that problem down.
The dash panel is pretty crowded with a ton of unused switches but are prewired. I'm so tempted to replace it since it's cracked and start from scratch with new gauges and switches. Am I crazy?
Another unrelated question: The rub rail is coming unattached in places. How easy is it to remove the rubber, screw the rail down, then reinstall the rubber?
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Another update:
The dash panel is pretty crowded with a ton of unused switches but are prewired. I'm so tempted to replace it since it's cracked and start from scratch with new gauges and switches. Am I crazy?
Another unrelated question: The rub rail is coming unattached in places. How easy is it to remove the rubber, screw the rail down, then reinstall the rubber?
I would definitely recommend new gauges and switches. I might even go as far as to say you should replace ALL your wiring with new wire, and seal it with heat shrink every chance you get. For one- peace of mind (although I've had to replace a few of my brand new switches a year later)- that's a big ole offshore boat and you'd be happier out there in the big blue knowing that all your wiring, gauges, and switches are new and working properly, and two, less clutter just makes you feel better. :) It would also be easier to trace an electrical problem when you have a better idea of where your wires are going, basically you become more "intimate" with your wiring, and having new gauges and switches will help you more or less rule out (although you can never really be too sure...) if its wiring or faulty gauges and switches.
As far as the rubrail goes, in my experience, they can be a real mother. If you can just remove the insert near where the rail is sagging and reattach/fasten it as opposed to removing the entire insert from the rail, I would definitely do that. I installed a new rub rail on my Aqua because the old one was just plain ugly, and it's so difficult to insert the rope/rubber that I've just put it off indefinitely. That will just have to be another headache for another day.
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So how does one remove a dead bilge pump when you can only get one hand on it at a time??
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It's tough, still have bruises from it.
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Boat builders can be real a**holes sometimes. "What, you mean you have to maintain your boat?"
Your 245 has a tackle center/access door on the starboard side aft. Remove this, and I mean the whole assembly (hopefully whoever did the backend electrical/plumbing left you enough hose), and swing it out of the way to the starboard gunwale. If not enough hose to the "Y" valve, swing it inboard and rest it against the livewell. This should give you enough room to get your upper torso in far enough to where you can reach the bilge pump with both hands and do the replacement.
You know that little pump on the aft bottom side of the fishbox? The fishbox pump-out pump? I used to have to plumb that, after the boat was decked! Stand on your head and be in good shape!
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Well, the maiden voyage went well today. Flat calm here in the Great Lakes so it was a good day to see what the boat could do. As I said in a previous post, both bilge pumps are shot but even when washing down the deck, it stayed dry below. Since I've not replaced the fuel sending unit, I don't have a working fuel gauge. I can look directly on the tank and see the analog needle so that helps. Does anyone know the consumption of the 225 Ocean Runners?
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Well if they're anything like my 200 (and they are) they drink like a sailor on liberty.
Using Rick's universal formula you're looking at 22.5 gal/hr at WOT. YMMV based on hull design but...
I've found his formula (HP/10 @WOT =GPH) is pretty damn close to what I show on my flow scan meter.
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On my 230 the 250 Yammie uses about 16-17 gph at 28-30mph per the flowmeter.
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After crawling around in and out of this thing for awhile, I've come to the conclusion that a good winter project would be to rewire this beast. Can anyone recommend a good book for this? I've wired an entire house but 12V is a different animal. On a related note, the main fuse panel in the stern compartment has four, unlabled fuses. Any idea what they're for? One of the first thing I'll do is replace it with blade fuses since the existing plastic box and fuse holders is cracked and brittle.
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Here's two to get you started.
http://books.google.com/books?id=E7uwXs8hj08C&dq=boat+wiring+book+review&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=XFCkSuuGJYeStgfjktAC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=oPU28cGSVA4C&dq=boat+wiring+book+review&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=50-kSuyRH-SvtgeTpMibBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Have not read either one.
We have an "electrical wizard/contractor" member on the Forum, hopefully he'll post up and steer you in the right direction.
Good luck.
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Chris,
One other thing you might do. Remove one of the ground wires and cut the ring terminal off, then strip back some insulation. See if the wire, which should be shiny copper, is black. That is corrosion, not a good thing.
Report back, sir.
Bob C
Started re-wiring the fuel sending unit today and found corrosion on grounds galore.
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Chris,
12V is actually quite simple. All 12V appliances work in basically a "circle" concept, where juice flows from the positive batt terminal to the appliance, be it pump, light, windlass, whatever, and then back to the negative batt terminal. There will be interruptions in that circle, such as on/off switches and fuses/breakers, but the circle concept remains the same. The "ground" side is always tied into the engine ground, which is tied into the engine zinc, which allows stray current and static to dissapate to the water.
That being said, the 2 biggest difficulties when faced with an older boat are, 1) Corrosion, and, 2) Running the new wiring. Chances are all your positive leads will show just as much "black" as your grounds, which means it ALL needs to be replaced. The biggest problem you face with corroded wiring is resistance. Causes all your appliances, especially your pumps, to work harder, with reduced efficiency and increased heat.
Check the condition of your wiring at the helm switch panel as well as the breakers. Chances are, you'll see the same corrosion present there as well.
So, now that you have the good news, it's time to get down to rewiring her. The most daunting task is to get the wiring where you want it to go. The 245 has a nice rigging tube on the starboard side running from the bilge to the helm area. This is where virtually everything eminates from.
It's not that difficult, especially when you have an entire winter to do it.
Bob C
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That's a lot of great info. Thanks!
I'm getting ready to order my wire, connectors, etc. and need to decide 14 or 16 gauge for everything (besides battery cable and helm feeds/grounds). Any thoughts?
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Use the wire size need for the load, but don't go below 18 ga. for anything. Here's a simple load/wire size rule of thumb:
50 amps/6 ga.
40 amps/8 ga.
30 amps/10 ga.
20 amps/12 ga.
15 amps/14 ga.
10 amps/16 ga.
5 amps or less/18 ga.
The reason you don't want to go below 18 ga. is that 20 and lower can get very hot (think light bulb filament) if shorted before the typical fuse or circuit breaker interrupts the circuit. If protected with a 5 amp fuse or circuit breaker, an 18 gauge wire will stay farily cool (below about 140 degrees) when the fuse blows or breaker opens. Also, it is very hard to get a good crimp on a small wire, even when using small terminals.
Hope this helps - see ya on the water!
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Wellcraft/AS, we used 16 on all but the heavier loads. At Stamas, 14 on virtually all but the heavier loads. Pro-Line? Back to 16. I like 14. Gives me a little piece of mind, especially as wire corrodes over time, which it will, and resistance increases. That's the enemy...
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Anyone know of a source for a new dash panel blank? I need to replace the old one because half the screw holes are cracked or broken.
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Chris,
Is there any label on the backside of the panel? At that time, I believe we were using M&G out of Virginia Beach for our panels/harnesses. I think this is the same outfit. http://www.mgelectronic.com/
Give them a call, it can't hurt.
Bob C
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Well here's a puzzler: I was getting the boat ready for its last voyage of the year and when I turned on the batteries, the aft bilge ran for at least five minutes. It has never worked before. I was messing behind the dash panel with another wiring issue so my guess is I somehow made a good connection to the switch. Anyway, the big puzzler is why I didn't get any water out of the drain plug to speak of while the pump was running. Am I missing something in the way the hull is constructed? Aren't the bilge areas and the area the drain plug drains the same? Also, any idea where this water may have come from? It's been outside in the rain but not THAT much rain.
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The aft bilge pump is definitely in the same area as the drain plug on my boat - like a few inches forward of it - so your thinking is correct as to whether there should be water coming out of the drain if the aft bilge is on (and assuming the drain plug is out).
The front bilge is a different story. I leave the drain plug out while the boat is on the trailer and I usually have the boat jacked up enough to drain out the bilge - at least in the aft. If you look along the bottom of the boat you'll notice that the keel drops down quite a bit as you move forward along the keel. So even though the aft bilge is dry the forward bilge may still have some water in it. It's not uncommon for the forward bilge to come on as I lower the boat onto the hitch - and it'll run for a bit depending on how much water I used to wash her down the last time.
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Sure wish I could figure out how all that water got in there...
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My fishbox hatch channel drains right into the bilge in the aft, so that is how water gets into my bilge. You can see the drains in this pic:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/68fresh_water_tank08.JPG)
That mistake was fixed on '93 and newer models, from what I've seen. Little cutouts were made in the back of the channel and water drains into the engine well and out the scuppers, as it should.
Not sure of the hatch layout on your year and model. Have you checked where the bait wells under the helm seats drain? Mine drain straight overboard on each side of the boat.
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I have the notches in my 91 but that section of the lid traps the water and doesn't allow it to reach the transom drains. It must just fill up and overflow into the bilge. :scratch:
You have me thinking about notching out the cover in the back to allow better flow. :idea:
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This mystery has not been solved yet. My boat has channels coming out of the back of the fish box that direct the water to the two drains at the bottom of the transom so I still don't know how the water gets in there. My boat's settled in for a long winter nap under a tarp so next spring, I'll stick my head in the bilge and start spraying a hose around.
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Well just because winter has almost arrived, don't be a hibernating member, we need the company :wink:
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I have the notches in my 91 but that section of the lid traps the water and doesn't allow it to reach the transom drains. It must just fill up and overflow into the bilge. :scratch:
You have me thinking about notching out the cover in the back to allow better flow. :idea:
Check the front side of the cover - maybe the PO turned it around? :lol:
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Here's something for you to ponder over the long winter.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff108/r-berlin/97stringergrid0001.jpg)
The scan quality isn't good but...
The photo on the left is a stringer grid which may resemble yours. I'd bet its pretty close.
The one one the right is a cockpit also similar to yours. Both pics are for the 97 model year.
First, it becomes apparent that there are "several" areas where water may occupy the inner hull.
Since a big marketing factor with these models was the "plumb bow" allowing for a more forward cockpit, water can and does collect in the forward bilge. As Rick posted earlier, even with the boat/trailer raised, water will still remain in that bilge and maybe other forward areas.
The egress for that water is down the centerline of the keel. The portion in the dead center of that photo is where the tank resides. You have to look very close but you can make out the 2" pipe that allows water into this compartment from the forward bilge. The water traverses this compartment by traveling under the tank supporting board and out into the rear bilge via another 2" pipe located at the rear of this compartment. The idea (my thought) is this allows water that would enter the tank compartmet to be carried out the back to the bilge.
Changing gears on ya, this very design allows water to enter the tank well from the front bilge and when the boat just sits so does the water in the well. Many of us know what happens to the aluminum tank when it constantly sits in water. 225 EX owners don't suffer this fate due to a poly tank. I believe your's is aluminum.
Lastly the photo on the right was meant to show the channels you mentioned. Impossible to see if you don't know where to look :?: but none the less, they do channel some water but every design like this that I've experienced on Aqua hatches is about 50/50. That is 50% clears and 50% goes in the hatch. The reason IMHO is that the channels are just too small to handle large amounts of water (think hard rain).
Good luck. :thumleft:
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I have the notches in my 91 but that section of the lid traps the water and doesn't allow it to reach the transom drains. It must just fill up and overflow into the bilge. :scratch:
You have me thinking about notching out the cover in the back to allow better flow. :idea:
Check the front side of the cover - maybe the PO turned it around? :lol:
Maybe not the PO but the current owner. :scratch:
I'll take a second look.
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Wow, Bob. A resource like you is invaluable! Thanks for the explanation. Here's what I don't get: Isn't the drain for the fish box attached to a pump so even if water gets in the box, it would just sit there until pumped out? How would it get into the bilge?
Regarding my aluminum tank, it that thing ever rusts out, what's involved in replacing it? Cutting a big hole in the floor?
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Wow, Bob. A resource like you is invaluable! Thanks for the explanation. Here's what I don't get: Isn't the drain for the fish box attached to a pump so even if water gets in the box, it would just sit there until pumped out? How would it get into the bilge?
Regarding my aluminum tank, it that thing ever rusts out, what's involved in replacing it? Cutting a big hole in the floor?
Well, you got me (at least part) on the fish box pump. I forgot you have a macerating pump there so yes it should not end up in the bilge but I'd bet that most of your water migrated from fore to aft. I state this because my short experience with my WAC did just that. I had a good deal of water in the forward bilge that did not drain back to the stern when I raised the bow considerably. The forward bilge pump had been replaced (the old pump mounting screws are still present to the rear of the new pump) but when?
I don't know how long water sat in that forward compartment but when I removed the tank, it was apparent that it had been awhile.
I would check that forward bilge over the winter for water. Unless the boat is kept inside, water can find its way in though you stated its under a tarp.
The tank?
Well Seabob4 stated that having to remove the tank was a good reason for cutting in a hatch. Gotta agree.
First though, don't go crazy thinking you need to replace the tank. Things that will tell when the time is right:
Gas smell in the cabin and/or excessive bilge grunge in the forward compartment.
Gas smell when sniffing through the deck inspection/access plates. Smell of gas here can also mean a damaged hose connection or blocked vent so fuel odor here doesn't always lead to a damaged tank.
Fuel floating in either the fore or aft bilge.
Water is the enemy of the tank and keeping the coffin dry is very important.
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Got a teak question for you all: I bought a chunk of teak and ripped it down to a quarter inch thick for a new dash panel. What's the best thing to coat it with that doesn't need to be reapplied very often? With all the gauges and switches, that would be a PITA. I'm thinking encapsilating it with epoxy would be pretty permanent. Nice and shiny too.
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Got a teak question for you all: I bought a chunk of teak and ripped it down to a quarter inch thick for a new dash panel. What's the best thing to coat it with that doesn't need to be reapplied very often? With all the gauges and switches, that would be a PITA. I'm thinking encapsilating it with epoxy would be pretty permanent. Nice and shiny too.
There has been a lot of discussion on teak here so I''ve included just one. http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4226
There are many ways to clean, coat and maintain teak. Don't know that I've seen the epoxy method.
My concern (don't know much about epoxy) is that it would get darker/yellow over time. :scratch:
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I wasn't happy with my teak/Cetol Natural Marine Teak combo so I used some mahogany plywood and some marine spar urethane on my new dash panel. I'm still waiting for a Faria OMC systems check gauge that should be somewhat of a close match to the Teleflex Sahara gauges I used.
Before:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/cdoyal_bucket/Boat%20Stuff/IMG_0040.jpg)
After:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/cdoyal_bucket/Boat%20Stuff/IMG_0136.jpg)
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Verrrry interesting. 8)
Awaiting a photo of it in place.
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Verrrry interesting. 8)
Awaiting a photo of it in place.
You'll have to wait awhile. Waaaaay too much snow on it right now.
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CD,
Love the panel! I'm a big wood fan. One question, where did you mount/install the breakers?
See you need the SystemCheck gauge. I have a brand new Faria white face laying around doing nothing. Unfortunately, 316 SS bezel. Shoot you a pic...
Bob C
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I'm thinking this would be a pretty good match:
http://greatlakesskipper.com/product/56 ... gauge.html (http://greatlakesskipper.com/product/56_58_62-gauges-faria-euro/7225-tg-faria-faria-euro-boat-systems-check-gauge.html)
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Great job on the dash panel iv'e been wanting to do something like that myself
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cdoyal i was at marine surplus in Bradenton today and they have the stock gauge in white for $15.00 if you didn't get one yet.
I'm sure they can send you one. http://www.marinesurplusinc.com/servlet/StoreFront (http://www.marinesurplusinc.com/servlet/StoreFront)
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I might start on my dash this weekend,gonna do white gauges also.
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cdoyal i was at marine surplus in Bradenton today and they have the stock gauge in white for $15.00 if you didn't get one yet.
I'm sure they can send you one. http://www.marinesurplusinc.com/servlet/StoreFront (http://www.marinesurplusinc.com/servlet/StoreFront)
Thanks for the tip. I looked at the site and didn't see a white one. I might stick to the faria in tan so they match. I'm a bit OCD with that kind of stuff!
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cdoyal i was at marine surplus in Bradenton today and they have the stock gauge in white for $15.00 if you didn't get one yet.
I'm sure they can send you one. http://www.marinesurplusinc.com/servlet/StoreFront (http://www.marinesurplusinc.com/servlet/StoreFront)
Thanks for the tip. I looked at the site and didn't see a white one. I might stick to the faria in tan so they match. I'm a bit OCD with that kind of stuff!
I picked this one up today,they must have 200 different gauges but just a few online
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/circlehooked/aquasport/th_DSC00773.jpg) (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/circlehooked/aquasport/?action=view¤t=DSC00773.jpg)
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Finally got the systems check in place. The Faria was a good match with the TeleFlex Sahara.
I also have a Humminbird 998c SI GPS/Side Imaging Sonar unit on order. I'm hoping it will prove to be a shipwreck finding machine come spring.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/cdoyal_bucket/Boat%20Stuff/DSC_9705.jpg)
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CD,
That 998 is a damn good unit (pricey, though!), have installed a few on the Donzi 29 ZFs we build for the Wisconsin DNR. They also like their FLIR cameras (VERY PRICEY!!!). I guess there's a lot of drug running on Wisconsin lakes!? :shock:
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A local dealer is giving us a great discount since it's for an official underwater preserve - (501c3).
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A local dealer is giving us a great discount since it's for an official underwater preserve - (501c3).
That'll work! :D
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I guess there's a lot of drug running on Wisconsin lakes!? :shock:
Or a lot of things to see at night :cyclops:
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CD,
I guess there's a lot of drug running on Wisconsin lakes!? :shock:
Must be an increase in shoreline meth labs since I lived in Wisconsin!
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(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/cdoyal_bucket/Boat%20Stuff/DSC_9705.jpg)
where did you get those rocker switches? and what are you going to use as breakers....looking to do the same on mine .That teak looks so cool.........
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(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/cdoyal_bucket/Boat%20Stuff/DSC_9705.jpg)
where did you get those rocker switches? and what are you going to use as breakers....looking to do the same on mine .That teak looks so cool.........[/quote]
I got them at Custom Marine Services http://www.cmsquick.com/prod_17_S_RocA.html (http://www.cmsquick.com/prod_17_S_RocA.html)
Actually, I bailed on the teak. I used some mahogany ply I had left over from building my duck boat. Much stronger since thickness was an issue with the rocker switches. I'm going to use a Blue Seas blade type fuse block for circuit protection.
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cool beans
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Waaaay!
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Waaaay!
Does this mean a new switch panel in your future? :shock:
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Yes it probably does. Now I know what mine will look like(except with the stainless bezel) !
(http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv60/Lewis55/NewGuages1-22-10001.jpg)
And once again they are not tilted, they are still in the box (Capt Bob)!
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And once again they are not tilted, they are still in the box (Capt Bob)!
They are too! :lol:
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Have to admit that dash has character. :lol:
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Lewis,
That mouse in the box looks to be running around 650 rpm on the little wheel attached to the tach. :wink:
Speakin' of the wood dash. :thumright:
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Yeah that little sucker is about out of breath!
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I finished installing my new dash panel and Humminbird 997c SI today. The PO had installed a white plastic blank across the front so I mounted the unit right to it and used the existing 1" hole.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/cdoyal_bucket/Boat%20Stuff/IMG_0010.jpg)
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:thumright:
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Oh my,
Now that really has me thinking. :idea:
Very nice CD :thumright:
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cdoyal is that white panel covering anything,just trying to figure out why the PO put it there.
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cdoyal is that white panel covering anything,just trying to figure out why the PO put it there.
I think they just mounted some electronics on it. It's not covering up any damage or anything.
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cdoyal is that white panel covering anything,just trying to figure out why the PO put it there.
I think they just mounted some electronics on it. It's not covering up any damage or anything.
That's good,just thought that was an odd place. :thumright: