Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Electrical => Topic started by: wwwcre8r on April 20, 2008, 09:23:12 AM
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I too am rebuilding my instrument panel (on my '87 AS 170 Osprey), old one looked bad, all gauges broken, except tach. Bought some Starboard (black), I think that will look sharp.
Question... my '87 Merc/Mariner 115 L6 had oil injection which has since been disabled, I have an unlabeled gauge, I'm assuming it is oil pressure... so I can ditch that.
I'd like to follow the advise in this thread about using a water pressure gauge, but I would have no idea of how to hook that up - any ideas to point me in the right direction?
Also my console cutout can hold one 3" + four 2" gauges, so I am planning on the following (all Teleflex Lido Series):
Tach (w/ hour meter)
Fuel
Voltage
Trim
Water Pressure (but I may not do this if they don't have one in the Lido Series for cosmetic reasons); otherwise I will use water temp.
UPDATE: I just found Part # 65507P (for the Lido Series water Pressure Gauge); I would still have to figure out how to hook it up.
Since I don't have a water temperature gauge now... how do I hook one up? How would I install the sender?
I have looked at the Seloc manual for my motor... I don't see much on that topic (unless I've missed something).
Thanks for any & all help... I'll post picts if anyone is interested, but have to wait until 4/22 when the new digital camera arrives.
Thanks in advance for the help!
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I'll have to see if I can find the instructions for my Teleflex water pressure gauges. I installed them on a Johnson and a Yamaha. The gauges came with directions and a diagram of where to connect for various motors. The "sender" is actually a 1/4" plastic tube that runs from the motor to the gauge. Most motor blocks have a place to tap into the cooling water supply.
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Lets see some pics!
I have a 170 that I'd like to rebuild the dash!
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Lets see some pics!
I have a 170 that I'd like to rebuild the dash!
I had to rebuild the top of the console, the bimini top supports that attach to the top had ripped the top of the console, looks like the prior owner tried repairing it, but that didn't hold.
I've got the fiberglass --> gel coat work done, just finishing the new fuel tank install now, I'll post some pics, the console/ instrument panel will be going in the next few days.
I hope the Starboard looks nice when I'm done... it sure is easy to work with!
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I have recently redone my dash so I figured I would attach a few pics to maybe give you guys some ideas. You can see more pics under my gallery in the members gallery.
Overall view of the top of the console
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/2038new_console.JPG)
And a close up of the switch panel
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/2038panel.JPG)
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I have recently redone my dash so I figured I would attach a few pics to maybe give you guys some ideas. You can see more pics under my gallery in the members gallery.
Overall view of the top of the console
wow, really nice work, it looks sharp! That's a real nice looking boat you have there!
I just installed the Starboard panels, made the cutouts, mounted the instruments, controls, steering, etc. I should have pics soon.
Now I just need to get the electrical & cable hookups done & remount the console to the deck, etc.
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I have read about the water temp/pressure senders somewhere online before. Apparently you cut a section out the hose going to your water discharge port (part with a solid stream of water coming out) and you just connect the two cut ends to either side of the sensor (They may be labeled so keep an eye out) Then just run wire from the sensor to the gauge and your all set!
Warm Water from engine block----->---- hose-->--|Sensor|--->---hose-->--Water dishcarge port
I should mention that the water goes to a sensor and not the gauge. The sensor is placed somewhere in the engine inline and then spearate wires lead to the gauge in the dash
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compcrasher86, thank you very much!!! I think this will be of great help to me! I don't know why I didn't think of that before, it makes complete sense!
Anyone else out there who has actually done this, any pictures/ advice?
I'm wondering... does that extra length of hose to the Water Pressure gauge and back to the engine (and then out), cause undue back pressure that would harm the water pump?
I have read about the water temp/pressure senders somewhere online before. Apparently you cut a section out the hose going to your water discharge port (part with a solid stream of water coming out) and you just connect the two cut ends to either side of the sensor (They may be labeled so keep an eye out) Then just run wire from the sensor to the tach and your all set!
Warm Water from engine block----->---- hose-->--|Sensor|--->---hose-->--Water dishcarge port
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I have recently redone my dash so I figured I would attach a few pics to maybe give you guys some ideas. You can see more pics under my gallery in the members gallery.
Overall view of the top of the console
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/2038new_console.JPG)
Not to threadhijack, but when you buy a certain size piece of starboard, does it come with the beveled edges or do you have to do that?
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I bought sheets of black Starboard, had to cut and shape them myself, I used a router for the edges.
Starboard is extremely easy to work with, in that regard.
Not to threadhijack, but when you buy a certain size piece of starboard, does it come with the beveled edges or do you have to do that?
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Water temp and pressure come from 2 different sources. The water temp gauge uses a sender that screws into the block on the water jacket. You may already have a sender there, or there might be a plug in the jacket that you remove to put the temp sender in. Run a wire from the sender to the "sense" or "sensor" terminal on the temp gauge and wire the temp gauge to + and - and panel lights.
The water pressure gauge uses a small nipple outlet on the water jacket near the top of the block. There may be one installed with a plug or cap over it, or you may need to get a water pressure nipple from Mercury and install it on the motor. A small hose goes from the nipple to the back of the pressure gauge. Many pressure gauges are mechanical, so you don't have to wire them unless you want the gauge to light at night, then wire it into the panel lighting.
I like a water pressure gauge better than a temp gauge, because the pressure gauge tells you how well the water pump is working, and you will see low water pressure before the engine overheats on the temp gauge (unless you are jdupree!!). Having both temp and pressure is nice - mo' info is mo' bedda! :wink:
Good luck - see ya on the water!
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GoneFission, thank you *very much*, that's great info to have!
I had the 3 carbs rebuilt, they need to be re-installed still, when we're in there, I'll look for those connections you mention, I hope they are all already there.
Thanks again!
Water temp and pressure come from 2 different sources. The water temp gauge uses a sender that screws into the block on the water jacket. You may already have a sender there, or there might be a plug in the jacket that you remove to put the temp sender in. Run a wire from the sender to the "sense" or "sensor" terminal on the temp gauge and wire the temp gauge to + and - and panel lights.
The water pressure gauge uses a small nipple outlet on the water jacket near the top of the block. There may be one installed with a plug or cap over it, or you may need to get a water pressure nipple from Mercury and install it on the motor. A small hose goes from the nipple to the back of the pressure gauge. Many pressure gauges are mechanical, so you don't have to wire them unless you want the gauge to light at night, then wire it into the panel lighting.
I like a water pressure gauge better than a temp gauge, because the pressure gauge tells you how well the water pump is working, and you will see low water pressure before the engine overheats on the temp gauge (unless you are jdupree!!). Having both temp and pressure is nice - mo' info is mo' bedda! :wink:
Good luck - see ya on the water!
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Not to threadhijack, but when you buy a certain size piece of starboard, does it come with the beveled edges or do you have to do that?
That is actually all fiberglass. Any starboard I have seen does not come with the beveled edges. Like wwwcre8r said, its very easy to work with though.
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You can bevel starboard with a router, the same as wood.
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Got new pictures up, great progress being made, I'm nearly finished!
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/592
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your dashboard is looking very nice, keep up the good work. I myself like the black starboard on the 170's as it looks much more classic. I like the location of the switch panel. As for the ignition, not feeling too hot as it looks like the wheel is in the way but hey, you only use the key for a couple seconds so what does it matter, right?
Also... WOW! on the electrical organization! that block is SO organized. And the heat shrink job looks incredible. +100 points for you. The terminal block on the bottom is for the Engine Wiring harness and the one on top is for lights and electronics... Again, nice work!
Is it just me or are only two or three of your switches being used right now? Nice bridging job on the gauges too. Everything about this job looks so professional! By the way, that Blue sea systems add-a-battery system was the smartest package to hit the market, nice buy. I also notice a light right over the gauges. A console interior light is a smart idea, I like your thinking.
Man I wish my dashboar/interior of console was that organized. Best of luck!
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Thank you compcrasher86 very much for the compliments, it's encouraging... I'm doing the best I can, I'm not in the marine business, I'm a computer geek/ project manager.
I'm not happy with the AS placement of the ign. switch, but the hole was already there in the console, I just left it where it was.
No switches are hooked up yet, I have a few remaining tasks, that's one of them.
I added a small LED light in the top-aft area of the seat/cooler that is in the console too, thought it might be nice to see what's in there @ night.
I still am not sure about what size fuse / CB I should put on the leads to the ACR (how do I calculate this???)... I've posted the question twice with no response... I guess folks would rather use their boats/ fish than answer my questions :wink: LOL
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I still am not sure about what size fuse / CB I should put on the leads to the ACR (how do I calculate this???)... I've posted the question twice with no response... I guess folks would rather use their boats/ fish than answer my questions :wink: LOL
Yes, I would rather be fishing then posting on any site. :P
I don't know how to calculate the amps on a circuit but there is a book out available called "The 12-Volt Doctors Practical Handbook" by Edgar J. Beyn. You can find it here - http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=SPA002 (http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=SPA002). It gives you all kinds of good information on boat wiring.
MD :wink:
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I still am not sure about what size fuse / CB I should put on the leads to the ACR (how do I calculate this???)... I've posted the question twice with no response... I guess folks would rather use their boats/ fish than answer my questions :wink: LOL
I saw the question to Wart but of course, I didn't answer HIS question. Never saw the other post.
I looked in your gallery and although you mention an ACR, I never saw one in the pix.
Following Warts guidelines in his ACR topic and putting my spin on things, this is what I put together for my 230:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/68battery_control10.JPG)
To explain it; from the top left, I have the ACR with required CBs attached.
The switches below control the batteries. From the left: house sw with the 30amp cb on the output, combine sw, starting sw.
The connection stud to the left is for the house battery "IN", the connection stud to the right is for the starting battery (engine) "OUT". I am going to buy another stud tomorrow for the starting battery "IN" connection, which will be mounted right above the charger. I could connect the starting battery directly to the the left side of the right sw but figure it would be easier in the long run to have a separate connection so I don't have to lift the switches from the board if I need to disconnect anything.
Bottom right is a dual bank 12V charger.
The house battery output has a 30A CB on it.
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I saw the question to Wart but of course, I didn't answer HIS question. Never saw the other post.
I apologize for not including one of the links to my prior post.
http://www.classicaquasport.com/forum/v ... c&start=30 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1583&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30)
I looked in your gallery and although you mention an ACR, I never saw one in the pix.
My ACR is pictured in this photo, it is a Blue Sea Systems, PN 7650 - Add a Battery http://bluesea.com/products/7650 (please note that wiring is NOT DONE yet):
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/592/2463Aquasport_progress_005_400x300.jpg)
Following Warts guidelines in his ACR topic and putting my spin on things, this is what I put together for my 230:
To explain it; from the top left, I have the ACR with required CBs attached.
The switches below control the batteries. From the left: house sw with the 30amp cb on the output, combine sw, starting sw.
The connection stud to the left is for the house battery "IN", the connection stud to the right is for the starting battery (engine) "OUT". I am going to buy another stud tomorrow for the starting battery "IN" connection, which will be mounted right above the charger. I could connect the starting battery directly to the the left side of the right sw but figure it would be easier in the long run to have a separate connection so I don't have to lift the switches from the board if I need to disconnect anything.
Bottom right is a dual bank 12V charger.
The house battery output has a 30A CB on it.
Can I ask how you determined what size CB to put on the ACR? you mention 30 AMP CB on the House output, I have that covered already with a 30 AMP Fuse... I even asked Blue Sea Systems, and were unable to give me a clear answer.
I appreciate all help and advice, and apologize in advance for being a noob in this respect. :oops:
Do I size the CB to the wire as per this chart?
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
If so... it would seem that my 2 AWG cable has a safe carrying limit of 94 AMPS; if that's the case, can I use a 100 AMP fuse or CB?
Which is better in this type of usage? A fuse or a CB (cost and fuse replacement hassle not being part of the equation).
Thank you very, very much! :D
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The ACR model I have came with a diagram that told me 75A slo-blo on each side of the ACR or 150A CB, which I used because I couldn't find slo-blos. Yours should have come with some kind of wiring diagrams. Maybe the CBs are built in? I would ask them if you have to put anything on each side of the ACR like they recommend on the CL-series (http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/386). I've gotten good help from Blue Seas, got answers right from the VP of Engineering.
This (http://bluesea.com/viewresource/60) drawing shows a CB on one side.
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RickK,
What is the purpose of the three separate battery switches? I'm not really following much of what is on that board shown above. Can you explain a little bit about what all of that does and how it works?
Here is what is on my other boat:
http://www.hookedoncatfish.com/Perko.html (http://www.hookedoncatfish.com/Perko.html)
It's pretty easy to understand from this guys write up. I haven't wired up a boat with everything that will be on my aquasport, but i'm guessing this will suffice. I would like my electrical stuff bullet proof, if you could offer some insight into your system maybe it will help me figure out how I need to rig mine.
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Slippery theres no such thing as bulletproof when you mix electricity and the open ocean. The most important thing I can say is accessibility and organization. I as well do not understand the purpose of three switches but I must say that the Blue Seas Systems Add-a-battery system is one of the most compact and well thought out system to dual battery power. It isolates both batteries in the normal on position and once it detects that the engine is providing voltage, it will combine the batteries for combined chargine. It also has an override switch to combine batteries in the evnt that one of them fails. Awesome system and only $150. Highly suggested
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oh wwwcre8r I totally neglected you, heres a link to some information on your charging relay, it may have fuse info in it http://bluesea.com/files/resources/inst ... 310020.pdf (http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf)
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The ACR above the switches is across both batteries and works as cc86 described. The 3 switches function just like the normally used BIG switch shown in the link in your reply. I could have used one of those except I needed to have more stuff in a small area so I more or less made my own. Plus, I've seen those big switches go bad - rarely but I've seen it happen (and someone just mentioned one going bad on this site recently). These switches are very small (and made by Blue Seas also). The left sw is to connect the "House" battery, the middle is the "All" sw or to combine both batteries, and the right is for the starting battery - so anyway, I can tell exactly what is going on. I've labelled each sw since I made it also, so anyone can tell by looking at the board what is on or off.
See this (http://www.classicaquasport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1583) topic to see where all this started.
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oh wwwcre8r I totally neglected you, heres a link to some information on your charging relay, it may have fuse info in it http://bluesea.com/files/resources/inst ... 310020.pdf (http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf)
Thank you *very* much for the reply/ info.
I'm afraid that PDF doesn't answer my questions, I have that info already.
The "Wire Sizing Chart" on page 2 of that PDF shows charging amperage versus wire size... My '87 Mariner 115 HP outputs only 9 AMPS!
Can I assume that I only need to size my wire and thus my circuit protection against a 9 AMP charge? I was going to install ANL 100 AMP fuses and use 2 AWG cable... now that is sounding like massive overkill. :shock:
I asked Blue Sea Systems... they didn't give me a straight answer, they said they didn't know enough about my system to give a recommendation. :?
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www, I am surprised your motor only puts out 9 amps, my 140 evinrude does 15 or 20 i beleive. Anyways, protecting the line against 9 Amps doesnt make sense to me because you must remember that when cranking the engine, it will use A LOT more amps than when it is charging. Also, I imagine you are going to want to have some powerful gear on board so the gear should not be limited to only 9 amps (My stereo system alone requires 10 amps and my bilge requires 5 so i've already passed you)
However, if you plan on keeping your 115 Mariner and its only putting out 9 amps. You can only use 8 or 9 amps while the engine is on and keep the batteries properly charged. This means taking every measure necessary to save electricity. E.g: Replace nav and anchor lights with LED bulbs or fixtures, turning off equipment when your not using it.
Oh and try providing Blue Sea Systems with this information:
1987 115 Mariner that puts out 9 amps charging power
2 AWG Cable
Two batteries
Add-A-battery system
How far it is from the batteries to the engine
How far it is from batteries to the add-a-battery system
and ask them what kind of fuses or circuit breakers you need to install for the add-a-battery system
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compcrasher86, thank you once again... I've emailed Blue Sea Systems again, with more information.
Considering how the PN 7650 - Add a Battery gets wired into the system... would it ever carry more than the charging amperage from one or more sources (outboard, maybe a solar charger later)?
Could I use 8 AWG cable + a 30 AMP fuse on each side (I'm wondering)?
The Switch would still get 2 AWG cable of course, because that is what was run to the outboard.
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Yes, Mercs that charge off the stator put out 10 amps at best. :oops:
Newer ones have auto-type alternators that put out 60 amps. And that is why you want to overbuild your system. Should you ever update motors, odds are you will get a newer motor that puts out 50-110 amps. Build the capacity now so you can use it later. :wink:
Also remember that starting power uses a separate circuit - direct connected without fuses or breakers with #2 or less cable...
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yea those new e-tecs put out 60-150 charging amps somewhere in between depending on size, etc. Man would I like to have one. Go with GF, overbuild it so you can upgrade motors in the future without having to re-wire and re-cb
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Thanks all!
I was working on it today... I put in the 2 ANL fuse blocks that I had, I put in a 100 AMP fuse on each side of the 7650 - Add a Battery; using 2 AWG battery cable... I can always upgrade the ANL fuses later. This should suffice... I would imagine the 2 AWG is rated to at least 150 AMPS for future use.
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good call, I would have done the same thing. In fact, I am going to do the same thing once I get back under my budget. Its tough cause anything "marine" is just sooo expensive.
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Looking at this thread it gives me, an average garage electrician (who works on cars alot), enough courage to do a similar project this fall/winter.
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penguin, I encourage you to do a similar project because as long as you use think and plan everything out and you have basic crimping/heat shrinking skills you should be fine. You say you work on cars and boats are quite similar indeed (minus the dual battery and all of the waterproofing)
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p3ngu1n, go for it! If I can tackle my rewiring job, I'm certain anyone can... I'm a computer geek / project manager by trade.
I lost my schematic that I drew up for this project, but I can recreate it easily (might be useful someday); if anyone wants a copy I'll be happy to create a PDF.
I should be done with all the electrical in a few days... I'll take more pictures/ post them then.
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p3ngu1n, go for it! If I can tackle my rewiring job, I'm certain anyone can... I'm a computer geek / project manager by trade.
I lost my schematic that I drew up for this project, but I can recreate it easily (might be useful someday); if anyone wants a copy I'll be happy to create a PDF.
I should be done with all the electrical in a few days... I'll take more pictures/ post them then.
I'd love a copy. I'm planning on re-doing my console around October. I have to pull my console off to get to my fuel tank to check it, so I might as well do it then. I plan on also installing quick disconnects to all the cables I can so that I can take my console out easier. Rewire and starboard the console, fix my fuel tank issue and awlgrip the interior. I guess that will take me a couple of hours...lol
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If you still wanna make up that pdf, I always love looking at ideas and inspiration, I'd love a copy
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I just winterized the boat, sealed her up... now I'll have time to recreate that schematic. I have some photos of it in my gallery too.
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-I like the quick disconnects idea, but are they as waterproof as a heatshrinked solid connection? Just curious; I'd like to do the same. Seems I always have some reason to pull up the gas tank plate.
A little tidbit: I completely restored the original console that came in my 19-6, and it could have passed for brand new. It had screw-holes galore and so much random crap attached to it. It took me all day. Then... like an idiot... I towed the boat down the interstate with a less than adequate strap holding down the console, and believe it or not, @ 65mph, those consoles become airborne. The damn thing did a triple backflip and landed right-side-up unscathed on the side of the road. By the time I could double back to retrieve it, some a-hole had already picked it up. Could have been MUCH worse... luckily no-one caught a console through their windsheild.
So, if anyone happens to lose a console or find the need for a replacement console in a 19-6, a console from a 1993 Polar CC fits nicely, though the original is nicer IMO.
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-I like the quick disconnects idea, but are they as waterproof as a heatshrinked solid connection? Just curious; I'd like to do the same. Seems I always have some reason to pull up the gas tank plate.
A little tidbit: I completely restored the original console that came in my 19-6, and it could have passed for brand new. It had screw-holes galore and so much random crap attached to it. It took me all day. Then... like an idiot... I towed the boat down the interstate with a less than adequate strap holding down the console, and believe it or not, @ 65mph, those consoles become airborne. The damn thing did a triple backflip and landed right-side-up unscathed on the side of the road. By the time I could double back to retrieve it, some a-hole had already picked it up. Could have been MUCH worse... luckily no-one caught a console through their windsheild.
So, if anyone happens to lose a console or find the need for a replacement console in a 19-6, a console from a 1993 Polar CC fits nicely, though the original is nicer IMO.
If it were me, I would have been in the breakdown lane faster than you could say Aquasport, sprinting like a madman down the freeway to grab my console. Thats stupid that somebody had the nerve to take that!
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Yeah ... it was heartbreaking, but I felt at 65-70 mph, stopping immediately on the side of the road would mean I would be dragging the console at least 100yards back to the boat by the time I could come to a complete stop, either that or backing a boat against oncoming traffic. I just can't believe somebody grabbed it that quickly... seriously, it wasn't on the side of the road for more than 5 minutes, but water under the bridge now. The new console works nicely, and is a little narrower and taller, which gives me more floorspace on either side, and a little more protection against the wind. The original sure had a much more classic look though... oh well.
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I just winterized the boat, sealed her up... now I'll have time to recreate that schematic. I have some photos of it in my gallery too.
Just an FYI, I haven't forgotten about this, I plan on getting to it. Unfortunately my old laptop died and I've been sick since Thanksgiving, when I'm back on my feet I'll post the schematic, etc.