Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Engines & engine woes => Topic started by: Captain on February 01, 2005, 10:15:10 PM
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Wilson and I are currently deliberating the pros/cons of 4 vs. 2 strokes for our 23' Mako we are refurbishing. What say ya'll?
I like new and improved things, so I'm leaning toward a 4-stroke. I also like the fact that you damn near can't hear the things. However, does the increased weight and cost negate that upside?
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I would go with the 4 if you have the money........ I know that I have had over 20 yrs exp with dirtbikes and can tell you from old 4 they will last forever and are solid. just my thought..
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The weight is a killer on these older hulls that really weren't designed for them. The flipside is like it or not, someday you'll only be able to get four strokes. I do know that four strokes generate more torque, which is almost better than horsepower for boats. Maybe a smaller engine, which would be lighter, might perform to acceptable level. Thankfully I'm too poor to have this dilema.
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When he said 2 and 4 stroke it comes down to the New E-tec or a 4 stroke.
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There are lots of great engines out there, both 2 and 4 strokes.
IMO, the fair comparison is between a 4s and a direct injected 2 (HPDI, Etec, etc.). both 4s and direct injection engines so far outperform carberated 2 strokes it's an apples and oranges discussion.
take a look at the performance bulletins for the engines you;re considering. I was suprised at how small some of the differences were in noise and mileage between direct injected 2 strokes and 4s.
4s are really quiet at idle, but wide open make almost as much noise as 2s. 4s get slightly better fuel results, but weigh more, cost more to purchase and service, (except oil), and are slower on hole shot.
get straight what features are important to you, and consider the trade offs. As with all things boating, there are always trade offs
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Thanks for the input.
As far as I have read the E-tecs use VERY little oil (especially when using synthetic). They are slightly noisier at Idle, but about the same at WOT. The hole shot is comparable with 2 strokes as is the wieght. The fuel economy is as good if not better than the 4 strokes. The service is much cheaper than with a 4 stroke too. The real kicker is E-tec = 7 YEAR WARRANTY.
Hard to beat that. Only place it loses is on idle noise.
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A freind bought an e-tec 90 last summer and has been very happy with it.
Most of what I have read about them has been positive. they seem like great engines.
Gotta love that 7 yr. warantee too.
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I lost my 250 due to the fact tht the oil injection failed on the motor. I had the motor serviced the trip prior to it blowing. You never know what will go wrong and where but I would like to eliminate that problem before it happens to me again and costs me my whole motor. I will most likely go with either johnson or suzuki 140's depending on who gives me the best price late in the summer or in the fall.
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saw this post on a site I frequent. more grist for the mill on the old 2 vs. 4 question.....
Reference: February 2005 Boating magazine
This month's "Boating" article tests a Yamaha F150 4-stroke to their HPDI 150hp on same exact boat.
The HPDI:
Accelerates 24% faster
Has better overall MPG numbers, and
Lower overall Total Cost of Ownership (TCO), even when the TCO calculation includes the cost of DI oil
The F150 advantages were at trolling/idling speeds and it had the overall lower noise.
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Wilson- When I get my fuel tank in, come for a ride in my 222 with a 2 stroke HPDI then compare to a couple that I know of with Hondas. Not the same boat as your Mako, but a good comparison. I went with the HPDI VMax 200 for lower weight, faster acceleration, and better hole shot. The other reason is that I could not get a short shaft (you may not need this) in a 4 stroke. I use very little fuel or oil. I am very happy with 2 stroke performance. I'll let Tom know when I'm done and get you out for a test run.
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Sounds good. Let us know.
We went with the 4 for the reliability, quiet, and fuel efficiency. I'm not yet convinced that the etec isn't the best. The hole shot was pretty damn good on that suzuki when we test drove it. Much if it is a funciton of prop pitch. It was 60 pounds heavier than the etec, but $2000 cheaper.
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Interesting data point on the price. Within a brand, 4's are usually a lot more than even direct injection. I think I saved around $4000 by going 2 stroke. Now, that's compared to the 200 4stroke. If Yamaha had the 150hp 4 when I bought, I might have gone that route. Same weight and same price as my 200.
M.
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That's what Frank Chunn just put on his. They love it, and claim it has a great hole shot. I haven't been for a ride on it. Some decent sized trim tabs help with that too.
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I've also heard that Frank is pretty happy. I really don't think the boat needs 200hp, but the 200 VMax weighs exactly the same as the 150 VMax and I got a deal through Yamaha, so, what the hell.
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200 can't hurt!
I've got him coming over tomorrow to help me install the new Porta Bracket.
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Tom and Wilson- If you guys want to go for a little ride- give me a call. I'm in the water at TYCC.
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The weight is a killer on these older hulls that really weren't designed for them.
I know this has been hammered around before and now it's my turn I guess: I'm considering updating my motor (17yrs old) and can't believe how heavy these newer motors are. (AND expensive :shock: ) My '88 'rude 110 is 305lbs dry (according to NADA - only place I could find weights for this old anchor - and while I was there, I also found it to be worthless :cry: ) and a new 2-cycle 115 weighs in between 360 & 380 !! I would have thought that they would be getting lighter as they got newer. The 4-strokes are easily 100+ pounds heavier at 115hp :shock: . My little boat would probably sink as I let it off the trailer with one of them on it.
I used to have an old (late '70s) merc in-line 6 150 that was lighter than these new 115s.
I sure had my heart set on a 4-stroke due to the quietness and clean running of them - a boat with twin 4-stroke 150s pulled into the dock today beside me and you could barely hear them running, my wife even commented on them - I started mine up and they couldn't hear (nor see) theirs anymore. :lol:
I really don't want to step down in hp to get something comparable in weight to the 110 - would rather step up :twisted: , but don't think my boat/transom could handle the weight. It already sits pretty low as it is (scuppers under).
Any ideas?
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I've sort of been wrestling with the same issues. I've got a '91 175 Mercury Black Max and it's heavy, but the newer stuff is really heavy. I'm kind of also at a loss as to what to do. Out of all the new four strokes the Yamaha f 150 is the lightest 150, because it's a four cylinder, everyone else has a V-6. I've also done some bizarre out of the box thinking too. I thought about twin Tohatsu 70's, which are the lightest 70's you'll find or, even more bizarre yet, tripple 50's, but the support gear for all of that would be unreliable and, what would the neighbors say? I'm just not sure how much I trust Tohatsu's, plus try to find parts for one. We can put a man on the moon, but what about a lighter outboard? I don't see any weight loss in the outboard's future either in light of the portly Verados. You notice how engine makers are buying boat builders? Notice how new boats are designed for the heavier motors? How's this for a conspiracy theory, manufacturers make heavier motors so you'll eventually be forced to buy their boats that can handle the fat motors?
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How about the Suzuki 140, 4 cyl 4 stroke? - their site puts it at 410 lbs, which is a lot less than the Yammy 150 at 466 - although still no lightweight.
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Guys,
I have debated quite long if I would mention anything about something that happened to me an is still ongoing, but here it is:
I too have been wondering what engine to choose to put on my CC, secretly wishing for a 4 stroke but reality checking for anything affordable. Now you all will most probably have seen a couple of Florida dealers offering great deals on 4 stroke Johnson engines. Especially 140's Unfortunately I need a 20" shaft and I was looking for a 115 HP, so the 140 was no good to me but I decided to contact them anyway. Just my luck, they had one 115 4 stroke, 20" at a great price! Shipping to Miami would be peace a cake since they were only three hours away and I would make sure it would then be shipped here(Aruba). I had to transfer the money and they would ship. On August 26th Roadway picked up the motor, and had a scheduled delivery for Sept 1st. To make a long story short, they lost the motor for about two weeks and then found it in a warehouse in Maryland. We then had to wait a week for a South bound truck who didn' deliver it to Miami, no, they dropped it back at the dealer it left from. On Friday the 23rd of sept, the moter was finally deliverd in Miami by a different trucking company after leaving the day before....
But, I also needed controls and rigging stuff for the motor the dealer couldn't supply the stuff so he reffered me to a friend dealer who is also advertising the 140's and he could help me out no problem. I had to pay by credit card and he would ship to Miami. So I ordered all the stuff including a so called Commander gauge which was about $ 30 more expensive than the regular OMC unit, but according to him well worth the money. I was in Miami on business, so I picked up this package before it would load in the container, to bring it in myself and save some$$ on import duties (22%) But when I opened the box I discovered the "cheaper" Omc tag gauge as well as a second hand wiring harnass tha actually has plier cut ends! When I called they made all kind of excuses, and apologised, they had sent the wrong stuff. We agreed that I would pick up the right stuff next day. Next day came I called before we would leave and he told me don't bother coming because the Commander gauge has a crack, so I have to send it back. As of last Friday they finally have the right stuff ther, but now he doesn' t want to send me the stuff before I have send heim back the old stuff saying he has $ 300 "out there". I don't know what to do yet..
I am sorry I have posted such a long story, but I wanted to warn others, that don't live close by and can't pick up the stuff themselves. I have spend a fortune in phonecalls in an effort to get something for the money I paid, to both companies. I sure hope this engine is worth it.
Rudy.
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WOW! What a nightmare!
I sometimes wonder if all the time, money and effort to have a boat is worth it.
Fortunately when I get out on the water chasing fish or just crusing I realize IT IS!!!
Just an FYI that may help you in the future, Johnson 4 strokes are made by Suzuki.
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Blues - That sucks!! Dare you tell us who the dealers are? The mis-shipping was not the fault of the first dealer (I assume) but the rigging.... I'd rather know who not to go to. If there is something I can do from this end to help nudge them, let me know. Maybe you can PM me if you don't want to "say aloud".
I've not had much luck surfing for prices on the internet - maybe don't know what keywords to use besides the obvious.
About Johnson, is that the low end of the Evinrude/Johnson family now? In the old days they were pretty much the same, now, in my research I see that the Johnsons are cheaper.
Steved - I don't know if my boat would handle another 100 lbs (Suzuki 140). I think I'm going to launch my boat and then put some sand bags (100lbs) on the motor and do some before and after pictures of how the boat is sitting in the water. Then I can mull over this until I can make a decision - if I let a dealer make the decision I know what the answer will be. Wrong.
I also am thinking of going to Ellis Outboards in Bradenton and look at used o/b. Hate to do this but not sure I want throw the amount of a new moter at the boat compared to the low amount of hours I put on it each year. A used o/b would last me forever just like a new one.
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Maybe, possibly, hopefully some good news, UPS is on their way to my forwarder in Miami with a package with the correct gauge and wiring harness. If all goes well I will let you guys know. :?
I don't know much about the Johnson - Evinrude tug of war, but what I understand, Bombardier wants to put all effort and research into the E-tecs, who knows if they will ever bring a Johnson E-tec into the market. They went with the "Suzuki" deal to be able to compete in the years that there wasn't a full lineup of E-tecs available. I guess Johnson was the easiest to use since they would have been able to sell both the 4 strk Johnsons and Evinrude Etecs simultaneously for a while. The import duties thing on the "Suzuki-Johnsons" 4 strks however killed that plan, pricing those motors completely out of the market.
It seems that the Suzuki 4 strks are about the best there is, I am assuming the Johnson- Suzuki's would fall in the same category. At least I hope so for my own sake. :lol:
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I decided to make the visit to see Drew at Ellis Outboard Marine in Bradenton Monday and it was a very pleasant encounter. Drew (owner) was very informative with a lot of AS knowledge and I talked to him about putting a 4-stroke on my boat. He took me out in his yard where he has a couple AS, to show me why I shouldn't put one on my boat. Seems one of his friends had a '83-85 170/175 and against Drew's advice, put a bracket with jackplate and a, I think, 4 stroke 150. The boat is in Drew yard and he showed me it - nice - but on the maiden voyage the fella either turned and stopped, stern-facing, a following sea or just stopped too fast and water poured over the stern and the boat capsized. He had a bilge pump but couldn't pump it out fast enough I guess. That answered all my questions!!
Anyway, I decided to go with one of his totally rebuilt 115 Johnsons. He sends every head out for total rebuild and goes through the rest with a fine tooth comb replacing all wiring, anything that is the least bit suspect, paints everything and puts new decals on it to boot. He showed me one that was ready to go on a boat and you couldn't tell it was rebuilt -looked new. He also backs it with a 1 year full warranty. Less than half of what a new one costs.
I also asked him to see if he had a used hydraulic steering system, he said he thought he did and would put it on.
I should get it back next week and I'll let you know.
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Rick the 150 4s on 170 is a really extreme example. I think a 150 2s would be too much engine for a boat rated for 130. I think a 4s 90 would be okay but that's about it. Oh and a bracket on a 17' boat? What an ultramaroon!!!
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As I posted earlier, I had a 150 straight 6 Merc on mine when I bought it. It would fly and I was always watching the backwash as I came off plane - too close for comfort. Didn't have the problem anymore when I put the 110 on it. The newer 115 is about 20 lbs heavier than the 110 - no worry (but more power :D ). As for the 150 4s on the 170....boyz will be boyz...the mechanic that rebuilt my lower unit told me he would have put a 200 on mine if he'd of rigged it...I have a guy at work that has a 17 Mako with a 200 on it....boyz will be boyz :twisted:
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Thanks for the input.
As far as I have read the E-tecs use VERY little oil (especially when using synthetic). They are slightly noisier at Idle, but about the same at WOT. The hole shot is comparable with 2 strokes as is the wieght. The fuel economy is as good if not better than the 4 strokes. The service is much cheaper than with a 4 stroke too. The real kicker is E-tec = 7 YEAR WARRANTY.
Hard to beat that. Only place it loses is on idle noise.
Wilson,
Do you have an ETEC and have others found what you said to be true? We have an 82 25xf with a Johnson vro 225 that still runs great. Is an ETEC with the weight savings and Evinrude claims true to form. We are considering a repower. Thanks, Gary and Suzy
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Can you even get new 2 strokes these days?
4 strokes sure are quiet and smooth and nice. Easy decision for me if I were to get a new engine.
About 60 lbs more if I remember from my research. On a 23 foot boat how much of a difference could it be? You're not going to get your feet wet. Throw a sandbag in the bow. Little extra weight, it will help pound through chop.
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Can you even get new 2 strokes these days?
Yes. Evinrude ETEC and Mercury Optimax.