Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => Flatback 22-2 Rebuilds => Topic started by: wysongja on March 02, 2008, 07:12:39 PM
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My Dad and I just purchased a 1970 22'2 Flatback, and are getting ready to start the rebuild. We have been looking for a 22'2 for a year or so and are looking to build a strong, safe fishing and weekend cruiser. Apologies to the purist's but we are looking to get her in the water by June, thus she may not be show worthy but she will be solid.
We have a few questions? I tried to find some of the answers in previous discussions but could not find a few. Pictures below are what we are starting with.
A few questions we have
1) Our transom was already started by the previous owner, he rebuilt the factory style transom. We would like to extend it to a full transom. Is this a simple as cutting a template for the void and glassing in a sandwiched 1.5" over the entire front and back of transom? We were thinking of cutting a one inch deep cut 1/4" width in the center of the rebuilt transom and the same in the center of the additional piece to fill the void and then placing a fiberglass edge in the groove and connecting the in place transom to the to help bond, any idea if this is needed?
2) Our 22'2 has what looks to be a spot for an under floor fuel tank, it is just before the casting deck. What sized fuel tank will fit in this space? MIne measures 8"x22"x36"
How do you suggest running a fill pipe?
3) Our stingers seem to be pretty nice, however one of the stringers seems to be filled with water logged foam. I have read in previous threads that you can buy foam to replace the original. What is this foam called? Is it easy to find. Thanks for your help.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582bomag_mph_013.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582bomag_mph_016.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582bomag_mph_018.jpg)
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Welcome Aboard wysongja :!: :!:
You in FL? Looks like some Australian Pines in your pics. We have plenty of people that can answer your questions on your 22-2 and they'll pipe up shortly. I'll help where I can until they come on-board.
My Dad and I just purchased a 1970 22'2 Flatback, and are getting ready to start the rebuild. We have been looking for a 22'2 for a year or so and are looking to build a strong, safe fishing and weekend cruiser. Apologies to the purist's but we are looking to get her in the water by June, thus she may not be show worthy but she will be solid.
Congrats on the find 8) Doesn't have to look showroom new but if you're going to go through the pain, might as well take your time and it can look real nice AND be solid.
1) Our transom was already started by the previous owner, he rebuilt the factory style transom. We would like to extend it to a full transom. Is this a simple as cutting a template for the void and glassing in a sandwiched 1.5" over the entire front and back of transom? We were thinking of cutting a one inch deep cut 1/4" width in the center of the rebuilt transom and the same in the center of the additional piece to fill the void and then placing a fiberglass edge in the groove and connecting the in place transom to the to help bond, any idea if this is needed?
I'll let the transom specialists answer this.
2) Our 22'2 has what looks to be a spot for an under floor fuel tank, it is just before the casting deck. What sized fuel tank will fit in this space? MIne measures 8"x22"x36"
How do you suggest running a fill pipe?
On that year boat I believe this was a baitwell. Does it have windows through the hull in the bottom on the well? This pic is from a members '68 FB. It also had factory plumbing in it.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/6868_windows3.jpg)
3) Our stingers seem to be pretty nice, however one of the stringers seems to be filled with water logged foam. I have read in previous threads that you can buy foam to replace the original. What is this foam called? Is it easy to find. Thanks for your help.
You can find the foam at any fiberglass place. There is a place here in Sarasota - http://www.fiberglassservices.com/ - that can help you if you can't find the stuff locally.
Again, Welcome Aboard!!
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I have seen others discuss the "glass bottom" and have seen some pictures. It looks like ours may have had those in the past but have been patched after market. Have you ever seen a fuel tank put there? If not where do you recommend we put it?
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The windows were not standard but an "upgrade" so maybe yours never had them. We have some price lists in the photo gallery that point this out.
Don't know about a fuel tank being put in there.
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Have you ever seen a fuel tank put there? If not where do you recommend we put it?
Based on the cut-out in the starboard stinger and the holes in the cap I would conclude that the fuel tank was between the starboard and center stringer, behind the glass bottom ports. Based on the angle of the deepest and narrowest cut out I would guess the tank was mounted forward in that slot and was probably rather long.
You can see in my rebuild that the '75 semi vee only has two stringers.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w150/cstockton/Aquasport/Picture002.jpg)
I have a similar notch up near the casting deck in the starboard stringer. Both the fill hose and the vent hose passed through that slot. My tank fits between the stringers. It was 60"l x 23"w x 8"d = 60gal.
If you want much fuel capacity you may need to install a tank on both sides of the center stringer which requires fillers on both sides. I bought a new custom made tank from Speedy Tanks (http://www.speedytanks.com/tank/index.html (http://www.speedytanks.com/tank/index.html)). They can set you up.
The only other rebuild of this model I have seen the owner removed all the stringers (delaminated), patched the bottom ports and put back laminated stringers. They followed Shine's rebuild plan pretty closely.
MD
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nice boat mine is 67 flatback i live puntagorda fl in process finishing mine any questions give me a call be glad to help in any way i put my tank under deck like you want to johnny 941-628-6533 67flatback you gotta love them best boat ever made in imop
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I actually just moved from Bradenton to Sanford for a promotion. I am selling my house on Wares Creek(off Manatee River). My Dad and I love fishing Manatee River and South Tampa Bay. The 22'2 is the perfect baot for that area, we intend to use ours on mosquito lagoon/hallover canal(near cape canaveral) and sneak out in the Atlantic on calm days.
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We are trying to figure out how to mount the tank under the floor and have the fill and vent hose not come up through the deck. How is this done?
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First, congrats on the new boat. Let me answer a few questions...
- The tank was never under the floor of that hull. The tank was in the center console, and the fill/vent were mounted in the console. Check out Fishbonz for example.
Typically to get a tank under the floor - you have to cut a section of the middle stringer out. I am not recommending that, but it is how you would typically get a tank in there. If you decide to do that, you will need to add some bulkheads.
- I am not thrilled with the look of that transom. It may be an optical illusion, but it looks like they glassed over the bottom paint? Could you provide some better detail pictures please?
- Last - you need a two part polyurethane foam to pour back in the stringers.
If you look around the rebuild section and do some reading, I thin you may find some very good detail as to how to proceed. Post up lots of pictures, and keep the questions coming.
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It has been glassed over the bottom paint. How big of a problem is this? Have you ever seen anyone convert a standard 22'2 transom to a full tansom without removing the standard?
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That is a BIG problem - means NO ADHESION. I am not being an alarmist when I say this, but get rid of the transom and start over. I would not trust a transom built buy anyone who is ignorant enough to put fiberglass over bottom paint.
Cut it out, build yourself a full transom the RIGHT way.
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Makes sense. He are thinking of having a custom fuel tank made and putting it under the front deck(between the floor and the raised deck. Probably around 30 gallon. Has anybody ever done this? Any potential problems?
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Potential problems are weight distribution and loss of usable storage space. I think both could be overcome, but just something to consider. I know my boat doesn't have a ton of storage...
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Latest update. We decided to leave our stringers because they were in really nice shape, but we wanted to replace the foam. My Dad came up with this idea. We cut the top of the stringers off and left an edge about 1". After taking the foam out we cut marine plywood into strips that would fit under the lip of the stringers. We drilled in screws so we would have something to hold onto. After we poured the foam and it was still expanding we put the plywood in place and held it under the lip until it sealed tight. Then we replaced the cut out fiberglass and re glassed them in. What do you guys think?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport2.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport3.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport4.jpg)
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I would have just layed new glass across the top. How did you glass the old glass to the stringers?
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we wanted to have somthing solid to screw the floor to. By placing the plywood there it allowed us to pack the stringers tight with foam.
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Seems like a smart idea to me, I like the idea of having the plywood there after the foam is poured. You aren't going to have any dead spots and it should be nice and dense done this way. I want to do the same type thing when my deck goes back in, cut holes in it to pour foam in then plug it from the bottom like you did here. I like the idea of having the foam bond to the bottom of my deck rather than just having my deck lay on top of it. This will produce a type of monocoque structure that disperses loads, vibrations, sounds etc. much better. Thats why the boston whalers have done so well.
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I would have just layed new glass across the top. How did you glass the old glass to the stringers?
This is an important part - I think the wood is a good idea too - but really curious as to how you reglassed because there are ways that will work well and others, well... not.
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Seems like he put the pieces back in he cut out, which is easy enough because they have the wood backer plates. Then he said they reglassed, im guessing they probably added some resin to the top of the wood and reinserted the fiberglass cutouts. If he did that he would just need to lay some new glass over the seem he created. I would just lay a couple runners down the length of the stringers and call it a day.
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Because the foam held the marine plywood tight to the lip of the stringers we simply placed the cut out pieces back in place added resin and mat and sealed them in. It allowed us to pack the foam in really tight and gave us something solid to connect the floor to.
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Good idea.
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So how far did you grind the edges of the glass before adding new glass to the stringers? How far did you bevel back the edge? What kind of material did you glass the stringers back together with?
I do not know if you guys are aware of how much stress occurs at these joints, but simply adding a little 1.5 oz "mat" to the joint is not going to cover it. There is no structural strength in the foam - and stringer "caps" take a beating. How about some pictures?
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FYI there IS sructural strength in the foam with this kind of structure.
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Slippery-
How do you figure? The foam is 2 or 4 lb density - there is ZERO strength in that... sorry. You need to be in the 20lb density range before you can count on the foam to provide structural support.
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No, any type of foam regardless of density will still add structural dexterity to a sandwiched panel. The higher denisty foams as used in transoms is mainly used for compression strength since bolts go through it and are torqued down. Shear strength is greatly increased and overall structure is much stronger than a hollow core. If it had no structural purpose it would have never been put in the boat. Foam is not more boyant than air, it is less boyant as it has more weight than air. Foam is put into boats because it displaces air and will not let water fill up a hollow space if it contains foam. As for the stringers in these boats they were built as a mold, a hollow air space like a pontoon if you will, if they only added foam for boyancy they could have simply done without it as a hollow air filled chamber is actually more boyant than a foam filled one. What most people dont think about structurally is the fact that the strength on an application like this comes from the actual sandwich construction process not the density of the foam. Its like cold molding for boat building, (ask shine) the strength comes from the sandwich technique not from the plywood itself. This is used in home construction... S.I.P. panels, bridges, etc. If you dont believe me, take two pieces of cardboard and span them across a small span, now add weight to them till they give way. Now take a thin piece of styrofoam and do the same thing. Once more take same length carboard and sandwich the foam and see how much weight it takes to give. The core construction method yields much higher, tension, torsion, and shear strengths. Anyone that thinks even low density foam isn't structural is misinformed. It can certainly be done without in a lot of instances but it does make for a stronger structure when used. I can go on forever on this but i've got to quit somewhere.
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http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm (http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm)
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I agree that foam adds deflection strength to glass sandwich structures - but the foam itself (at that low of a density) has no strength in its own right - that is a different statement than you made.
I am curious how this gentleman built his stringers back up, because this is a high stress area - and relying on the "strength of the foam" as you suggest - is flawed logic.
And if you want to check out Shine's work, please explain why he used high density foam for his stringers (if, as you suggest, foam density does not matter except for in transoms)?
Not trying to get into a pissing contest here, but I do not want folks to get mis-information on structural component strength.
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Hold your horses with your pissing match, im not into that kind of thing. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Everyone on this forum learns from helping one another, the way he refoamed his stringers was a good idea and I dont think he needed to get interrogated about it. Your said the foam adds no structural strength. I simply informed you and the rest of the forum that it does. It might not be structural by itself but combined with the lamination of glass it is. I must not be the only one with this crazy idea as the manufacturers of these core materials make them in densities as low as 3 lbs/ft. This is not 2 part foam either, this is divinycell CORE material. Boston Whaler must be one of those companies that thinks foam isn't structual too, they're simply chop glass and injected foam. One good thing that was done here is leaving the existing stringers system in place. The trapezoidal stringer system on these boats is a major design element that has proven these boats so reliable. I think its something that most people overlook, especially when rebuilding. Perhaps Shine used carbon fiber on the stringer caps to compensate for the lack of size of the original stringers. Carbon or not, it still doesn't justify rebuilding a stringer system with something that is 1/4 the size of the original system. Thats not what I would consider "over building."
The trapezoidal stringers on these boats serve a mulititude of purposes, giving the hull its longitudinal strength down the length of the hull, the wide base gives it lateral strength from side to side, and its trapezoidal shape helps with torsional strength or twisting within the hull. All without the use of bulkheads. Simply adding partial bulkheads to a puny stringer system is not adding any more strength to these boats, in fact its probably actually worse. The bulkheads that some people have added in their hulls create what builders would call "hard spots," they are hinge points along the length of the hull that give the hull areas points to flex over. These are not rigid boat hulls, they were built to flex. When one adds hard areas to points that were made to flex you are going to end up having stress cracks later on.
Sorry to hop on my soap box and preach to the choir but I would try to be more helpful to our new members rather than making them think they did something wrong. Everyone has their own means of working and if it makes the builder happy dont second guess them just to be an ass. After all your techniques might not be so great either.
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Ok guys, it's time for me to step in and make sure we play nice. Each of you are making valid points and there is certainly no need to start name-calling.
Also, there is no need to derail this thread any more, so you may want to take this debate off-line.
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Rick - appreciate your feedback. However I am compelled to answer this topic, because I do not understand where I have criticized his work or for that matter been anything other than pleasant in this exchange - contrary to what is being said. I did ask how he reglassed the tops of his stringers and made the point that this was a very important step - not one to be taken lightly. Am I going nuts here guys? :?
Slippery - If people are going to post pictures and processes in a boat rebuilding forum, do you expect folks to not ask why something was done a certain way, or not speak up if they think something was not done properly? I know all my work is not perfect, and I have had people point out my mistakes, and that's how I learn. IMHO, simply saying "oh sure, should be fine" does not necessarily help someone improve. Fact is, I never GOT an answer to how this was completed, so I never even got a chance to understand his work.
I am sorry you took it personally, especially after stating that was not my intention. I implore you to find one negative comment here by me in over 900 posts...
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I didn't take anything personally. I understood what was done by reading the posts. It was clear to me, perhaps thats why I was wondering what you were asking. I apologize for the misunderstanding, however in the future you may want to use a little more tact when it comes to asking these types of questions. That way you dont come off being so abrasive, its more encouraging for our new members to learn and move forward. Nobody, and I mean nobody likes to hear that they did something wrong. Not saying it shouldn't be pointed out if there are mistakes, but that doesn't mean just because its not how you did things its the only way. Simply saying a few respectful questions rather than implying doubt to someones work goes a lot further.
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HPerhaps Shine used carbon fiber on the stringer caps to compensate for the lack of size of the original stringers.
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The trapezoidal glass stringers are a wonderful design, the fact is my AS did not have them when I bought it (had be re-built once before) - so I was forced to chose a more traditional structure of stringers and floor frames.
I use the uni-direction carbon to cap the stringers because it has equal stiffness of perhaps 5 time that of equal weight fiberglass - I saved weight.
1" thick Divinycell cored stringers made with all biax and epoxy would be strong enough for a much bigger boat. the lamination schedule for the stringers is more than adequate
Nobody, and I mean nobody likes to hear that they did something wrong.
I agree :)
Thats not what I would consider "over building."
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please explain how my structural design is deficient
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From what I read here Richard was concerned that someone simply plugging holes in the top of the stringers. His wanted to making sure the holes were patched in a way to ensure they were as strong as before. That is a true concern as that the strength of those stringers come from the fiberglass.
the foam in the trapezoidal stringers is not structural - the thickness and shape of the trapezoid give them stiffness. Does filling some shape with some 2 lb. pour foam add stiffness - yes to some extent, but it would never be relied upon in the design of the boat, if it did all these boats would not have held together as long.
PU foam does not have the peel and shear properties (forces you see a lot of in a stringer) to act as a core in a true composite sandwich (at least in the densities you get from pouring, in very high density around 20lb it is almost as strong as 5 lb Divinycell foam - at 4 times the weight!)
however in the future you may want to use a little more tact when it comes to asking these types of questions.
again, I agree :)
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Shine, I wasn't insinuating that your stringer design was deficient in any way. As I said before your motives behind using the carbon fiber on the top cap were probably because the stringers you built weren't near the size of the original stringers. This would warrant additional build up of glass, or stronger materials, ie. carbon fiber. It would also warrant the full width bulkheads as well to help with torsional stresses, all of which you did. Quite well I will say also. My original point here was that foam, albeit even two part foam does add structural rigidity. Im not saying that it is a crucial design element of these boats, but im sure it helps. Its amazing how strong simple foam sandwich construction is. I've done scientific structural testing on all of the structure types listed in a laboratory, and it really is incredible how strong something becomes when engineered properly.
As a side note, the original stringer design is one of the strongest all around designs you could have in a boat. The trapezoidal design is also used in segmented concrete bridge construction because of its strength characteristics.
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I/2 in marine ply cut to slide into place under the cap and attach to the (2) 34 inch transom
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_001.jpg)
pre fiberglass transom with compound
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_002.jpg)
Ready for glass
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_003.jpg)
Glass in....sanding and skimming begins
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_004.jpg)
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From bow
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_0061.jpg)
Close up on in floor fish box......our fuel tank is going under front platform..
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_0071.jpg)
Close up of new transom cap..Center box to hide lines and bolts with benches on either side over future dual bait wells. Center cap strong enough to stand on and spot bait...etc.....Above floor bilge in case of bathtub(also will have two large scuppers) and second below floor bilge..
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aquasport1_008.jpg)
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wysongja-
Can you post some more pics please?
Did you completely cut out the old transom?
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After you brought up the issue of glassing over the body paint we were concerned with the previous work. We removed all the old glass and resin but the ply seemed to be done correctly. We added the piece to complete the full transom. We added another 1/2 in marine to the inside that came up over the added seem. So our transom actually has 2" of plywood before glass. What other pictures would you like?
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Makes sense. I was looking for a shot form the rear (side) to see how you glassed the new glass over the hullsides.
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Question about hatches. The hatches that were used by hammerhead boat works on the front platform, Were they purchased or made? I have been looking around for a decent hatch and want to stay away from plastic hatches that sit above the floor. I like the look and durability of the flush mount fiberglass hatches, I guess my question is are fabricated or purchased? And if they are fabricated how is it done? Is it time consuming? How large or a span can they handle? Please help.
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Hammerhead (Tommy) makes his own hatches - he has molds. Starting from scratch is not terribly easy - look at Shine's project for details. I used a mold to build mine - not terribly difficult.
On the other hand, you can buy some from Young's boatworks - that's where Capt Rick got his.
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Do you have any contact info for Young's?
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http://young-boats.com/ (http://young-boats.com/)
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It has been a while since our last post and we have been doing some good production. Our floor has been screwed and glued and we have two coats of glass on so far. All wiring and fill tubes have been run and our fuel tank is operational. We could not find a center console that we really liked so we decided to make our own. I think it really turned out well, we cut a cooler in half and foamed it in the front. We wanted something around 28" wide but with enough height to handle a leaning post. After making the console we decided to make the leaning post baitwell as well. It has a 35 gallon circular tank from betterbaitwell.com and we built the leaning post around it. Still have some work to do on the cap and finish the seating across the transom. Only 45 more days to have her in the water, going for a new land speed record. Wish us luck. House in the keys 7/19/08. Here are the most recent pics.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aqua4.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aqua3.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aqua2.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/2/1582aqau1.jpg)
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I like the layout of the new console and baitwell. Good job!
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Been a while since our last post and we have really made some good progress. She looks like she will be ready for our week in the keys starting on the 19th. Let us know what you think.
Sprayed with Awl grip
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/1582063.JPG)
Here is the outside. The Awl Grip was really easy to work with and I think it turned out great.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/1582073.JPG)
Here is a loo from the bow. We have put done Kiwi Non skid after seeing how nice LIL Rchard's turned out. We went with a creme color, will have the deck and cap done soon.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/1582084.JPG)
And finally the Porta bracket with swim platform. Scott at Porta Products was great and this thing turned out to be beautiful. It has the integrated swim platform that pivots up and down with the engine. They say is great for getting in and out of the boat, can't wait to see her in action.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/1582076.JPG)
We are going with a new 175 4 stroke Suzuki. She goes in Monday for the install. Should have her in the water next weekend. Not bad for buying her on March 1st.
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Looks good!
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I like the combo swim platform/bracket. Is that a standard Porta item?
Looks good - bet you can't wait to splash her! :lol:
See ya on the water!
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wowwww that portabrack with the swim platform is slick. I like it a lot!
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We are really happy with the porta bracket. We talked to Scott Porta about the new swim platform option and he says he has it on his boat and loves it. The platform pivots when the bracket is raised, he says is great for getting dogs and people in the boat. She is at the marina getting rigged with the 2008 175 hp right now...Should have her back by the weekend, will post more pictures....
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Platform is neat looking - what is it made of? Aluminum?
If so, you might want to non-skid the top if it isn't already or it could be a nasty slip and a hard landing when you least expect it. Watch the edge when climbing on it also. Not trying to be negative in ANY way, just that aluminum doesn't give very much when contacted with skin. (Like slipping off a trim tab - ouch!!) Actually I'm surprised that they didn't put some soft edge around it if they expect people to climb on it.
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The bracket came with a non skid on the top of it. The edges are all rounded real well. I have not used it but I am looking forward to it. It is fabricated together with the porta bracket, Hopefully I will be able to let you know how it works this weekend :D
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Excellent progress!
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boat looks great!
other than being a great concept with the swim platform, i would be be concerned from a fishing standpoint - looks like a "line-cutter" to me if you have a decent size fish that decides to fun under the back of the boat......guess you just have to pay attention when in reeling in the biggun'!
beauty of a restore!
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Hookdup
Listen just because you can't control your cobia at the stern of the boat doesn't mean this fine angler can't! :shock: