Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Electrical => Topic started by: warthog5 on December 19, 2006, 08:22:58 AM
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Some of you may have seen this posted on other forum's?
There always seems to be question's on wiring and the level of knowledge is unknown by the person asking the question's. So in the interest of a pix is worth a 1000 word's.
I've had request's for a drawing.
Well I finally sat down with my nifty software and drew it out.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Warthog5/ACRWiring.jpg)
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Thanks!
Looks good. Thank you for using on/off switches instead of the normal 1,2,both, off switches. :wink:
I wired my boat basically the same except that I have a third auxillary battery that I can switch to either house use or cranking use. I haven't sprung for the ACR yet but it's on the list. All four switched to ON puts all three batteries in parallel.
Oh yeah, I have a 3 bank 5A per bank charger that stays plugged in 24/7 if not on the water.
simple drawing without fuses, CBs, etc.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/Johnny_B/Catch%2022/BOATBATTWIRING.jpg)
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I think you've done a great job in everything except explaining what an ACR is. Done a search and still have no clue. Some kind of regulator?
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http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_id=53476 (http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_id=53476)
When the crank battery is fully charged, it starts charging the second battery.
IMHO Blue Sea makes the best marine electrical products without being outrageously expensive.
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But it's not a battery charger - distributes the charging from the motor?
ACR - Automatic Charging Relay.
Saves the alternator in the motor I guess - especially when you have your A+B switch to both.
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It ensures the cranking battery gets priority charging, then charges the second battery when the cranking battery is fully charged. All from the motor alternator.
AB switches will get you in trouble sooner or later.
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Saves the alternator in the motor I guess - especially when you have your A+B switch to both.
Running in Both is a bad idea. Here's why. Buy the way that is known as putting both batteries in Parallel.
If one battery devolop's a shorted cell. The good battery will discharge into the bad battery trying to equalize both of them.
The result is 2 dead batteries.
Here's another reason. You have motored out to your favorite sand bar. the radio has played for hour's. This is another reason I hate high powered amp's. They consume mass quanities of amp's and KILL batteries.
Any way you didn't turn the switch back to 1 or 2 and now your motor will not start due to 2 dead batteries.
The ACR has circuitry in it that parallels the batteries as long as there is not a load put on one of the batteries. If a load is sensed it open the circuit automatically and the batteries are no longer in parallel. This save's one battery to crank the motor.
It charges both batteries from one alt. 2 batteries are not only a good back up, but now your electronics get powered by the house battery. This stop's from spiking your electronics when cranking the motor.
It's a win, win deal.
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I have always heard that the "both" is used to start your engine in critical times and that most alternators are not designed to charge both batteries at one time, so don't leave it in "both" after starting. If you leave the switch in "both", trying to charge both batteries at the same time, you could damage your alternator. Looks like the ACR will prevent charging both at the same time, thus protecting your alternator - at least one of the things it does.
BoatUS=$95.
Another item for our "Resources" section
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That's basically correct on the "Both" setting. Another issue is that a battery that is going bad will drain the good battery if you forget to put the switch back to normal. In my experience, most people put the switch in Both and leave it there forever. My main issue is that my old brain has enough to remember without adding one more thing to the list.
My third battery saved my last fishing trip. With the boat in the water, tied to the dock with the motor running, I started turning on electronics. VHF - ok, GPS - ok, Furuno 582 fishfinder - "beep" with a black screen :(
My first thought was that my high dollar bottom machine had died. Then I looked at the GPS and it was showing 9.6 volts :shock: I turned everything off, switched the house battery to OFF and turned ON the AUX 2 switch in my drawing. 12.6 volts to my electronics as it should be. We were able to make the trip and worry about the bad battery the next day. The bad battery was three and one-half years old so it was past due and I had been expecting it to die anyway.
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This is a real interesting thread. Have been sitting back listening to the back & forth. Will be starting from scratch with the 240 so options are open.
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I am going through the 230 now and I know a couple things:
1) The batteries were purchased 4/06 (sticker on side of both) :D
2) I don't have a whole lot of room in the starboard storage box - has 2 batteries in it and of course, no room to work. Normal :roll:
3) The previous owner mounted an A-B-Both switch THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BOAT :cry: instead of mounting a backing board. Look at the 4 bolts behind the Aquasport emblem:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/rkins/ThePower.jpg)
4) I need at least a dual bank charger - just purchased one for the 170.
5) I see the fused red feed to the ACC panel and it doesn't look too heavy - like 16 or maybe 14 - so that has to be replaced. Luckily I don't have a bunch of electronics or a searchlight on the ACC panel to really draw - yet.
5) Probably should install the parts shown in this thread. Lookin' at about $225 just for the blue sea stuff - gotta add all the heavy wire too.
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One thing I do believe in is heavy wire/cable and higher end batteries. It cost's you up front, but pay's for itself down the road.
I build extra into a system, because you don't know what you will add 2yrs down the road. I want to be able to just hook it up and not be undersize on my cabling.
I look at a guy's boat the other day that was being reworked. I asked about the size cable he was going to run?
He said about that big, as he mde a little circle with his finger's.(http://bestsmileys.com/doh/2.gif)
I said that doesn't tell me s#*t. What gage?
he said I have it right here. Ok let me see it.
He bring's out this old cable that was in the boat before. Non tinned, no shrink tubing on the terminal's, corrosion and stiff as hell. (http://bestsmileys.com/doh/2.gif)
He said well I don't have the money to buy new stuff. I told him I wouldn't put that in my or anyone else's boat. It may work, but why install a headache for down the road?
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I was in BoatUS tonight and read the back of the ACR package and it said that it closed both contacts while charging, opens one when under load. A little different than what we thought - I guess it's like a newer version of a battery isolator?
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This is a real interesting thread. Have been sitting back listening to the back & forth. Will be starting from scratch with the 240 so options are open.
I agree - I found everything listed at BoatUS but it ain't gonna be cheap. If you find better sources, let me know. I'd definitely lay it out on a backer board before you glass or 5200 that in so it'll be easy to work on. I'll have to take muscle relaxers BEFORE I start trying to contort my body into the storage locker where everything is :lol:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/rkins/Bimini_Progress13.jpg)
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Here's an approach from the RV world that is worth looking at:
http://www.intellitec.com/pdfs/BATTERY_ ... 62.000.pdf (http://www.intellitec.com/pdfs/BATTERY_web/5300362.000.pdf)
Intellitec is a division of General Dynamics, and has a great reputation for quality products. The BIRD is not waterproof and would need to be mounted somewhere that is not exposed to direct water splash - think about maybe where you would mount a battery charger - and put this nearby...
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Charging both at the same time can be a bad thing as mentioned above. A battery that shorted internally can kill your alternator and the other battery. An RV parked in a KOA campground ain't the same as being 30 miles offshore and the motor will not start.
My onboard chargers are waterproof. If I were to consider using that thing I would pot it with epoxy first.
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Herea a link I found for a blue sea acr $65,definately considering for next season.easy install
http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited ... k+ACR.html (http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Blue+Sea+7600+CL%2DSeries+BatteryLink+ACR.html)
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Herea a link I found for a blue sea acr $65,definately considering for next season.easy install
http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited ... k+ACR.html (http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Blue+Sea+7600+CL%2DSeries+BatteryLink+ACR.html)
That's a great price - thanks for the lead. That's only part of the puzzle though but a good start.
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Those pix's are from Pete's son Adam's boat. :D
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Wow, they have some good prices Pete. Thanks!
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Here's a question for you:
How would a battery charger affect or be affected by the ACR?
The obvious charger to buy if you have mutiple batteries would be multi-bank and hook to the individual batteries. The charger is designed to distribute current to the batteries in need up to a max of it's current capability. Some also have maintenance mode so you can leave them on for extended periods of time (don't forget to check the water levels periodically!!).
With the ACR closing when it senses charging, will it undo or hurt the charger's distribution?
Would you not use a multi-bank charger and let the ACR distribute/control?
Even with individual on/off switches to open circuitry, the ACR bypasses all that when it closes. So I'm confused.
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I see what you are saying. I assume it would parallel the two batteries when the multi-bank charger is activated. That might be a good question for Blue Sea tech support. I don't think it will hurt the charger but it puts you back to charging in parallel.
I know how I would get around that but it would not be for just anyone to wire up. The ACR can be connected to an OFF-AUTO-ON manual switch to override it's normal operation. I would use a relay instead of a switch (again, I don't want too many things on my "have to remember" list). Wire the relay where it forces the ACR to OFF when the ignition switch is OFF and where the ACR is in AUTO when the ignition switch is ON. All it requires is having terminal #2 on the ACR grounded to force the ACR OFF and no connection to put the ACR in AUTO.
https://resources.myeporia.com/company_57/6330.pdf (https://resources.myeporia.com/company_57/6330.pdf)
Again, this is just me :wink:
Blue Sea sells a ready made manual switch for this.
http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Prod ... d=&l1=&l2= (http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=173904&d_Id=&l1=&l2=)
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I'm starting to think that with this ACR you don't need a dual bank charger (quote from the spec sheet you posted)
The CL-Series BatteryLink™ ACR connected into your boat’s electrical system provides automatic control for charging dual battery banks.
I'm thinking you use a heavy duty single bank charger and insert it into the system after the engine switch.
JJ - for you, that already has a dual or 3 bank charger, using the relay you've described should do the trick to take the ACR out of the pic.
Anyway, I took your advice and sent the questions to them (and also a link to this thread).
I'm thinking of using this switch panel of theirs to save space - now I need to find a box to mount it to (may be the undoing of my space saving crusade :roll: ). http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Blue+Sea+8080+2+Bank+Battery+Switch+Panel.html
Which, BTW, the 8080 looks different on the BlueSeas website, specs are different too - in fact I can't find the fancy looking one on their site.
http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=24005&d_Id=6618&l1=7958&l2=6607#
This sheet, https://resources.myeporia.com/company_57/9862.pdf,
page 2 provides a good calc for wire size.
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I guess it all boils down to what one wants the system to do and what you think is reliable.
My priorities are:
1-back up on the water
2-no problems at the boat ramp at 4:30AM when launching the boat.
3-not having to remember to switch switches around depending on whether it's on the water or on the trailer.
4-Lead acid batteries need to be fully charged all of the time for longevity.
#1-backup is done with the auxillary battery that I can switch to crank or house service. All three batteries should be fully charged when I leave out because of the onboard charger. Mine stays plugged in 24/7. Yes, there is always chance of a battery failure but that's life.
#2-reliability should be covered because the onboard charger is on 24/7. Again, a battery can fail but the trip isn't cancelled because I have a backup battery that can be switched to house or crank service. Not parallel charging the batteries keeps a failed battery from dragging the others down.
#3-old age CRS-I don't want to have to remember to turn off the charger after a day of charging or to put the charger on the day before a trip. Plus I make a lot of last minute trips with no preparation. The way mine is set up all that I have to remember is to plug in the onboard 3-bank charger after a trip. I should turn off all battery switches in case I leave a light on or something but I don't absolutely have to because the onboard charger will still have the batteries topped off unless I were to leave a hell of a lot turned on. The ACR is nice to have but has not been a priority because I can parallel my batteries when running by using my battery switches.
Personally I do not like to rely on parallel charging. My ONLY reason for even considering adding the ACR to mine would be to extend the length of a fishing trip by automatically charging the "house" battery between spots. Depending on the ACR to have both batteries charged when you are ready to go fishing will bite you sooner or later when one battery fails and drags the other one down with it.
#4-longevity- A smart onboard charger takes care of this. Just check the water a couple of times a year which needs to be done with any charging method.
Again, all this is my personal thing that makes me happy. I cannot count the number of trips delayed or cancelled over the years due to batteries, my boats and other peoples boats. Many times we have run back to the parking lot and robbed the truck battery to have a boat battery. The live well dies halfway through the day because the battery wasn't fully charged as well as many other issues. Almost all of these issues were caused by not maintaining a full charge on the batteries, forgetting to plug the charger in, and other crap like corroded terminals. Very few times was it caused by a battery that had just failed. My setup has been thought out quite a bit over the years and it has been the best solution that I have been able to come up with for ME.
Your way will work fine. I just like my way better. :wink:
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I guess it all boils down to what one wants the system to do and what you think is reliable.
If I'm going to go through this to make sure everything is fine anyway, I figure I could at least try to do it somewhat right. And I'm learning as I go. Right now, there is no switch on the acc buss wire and having a "1 or 2 or 1+2" switch doesn't allow much flexibility without adding at least one more switch. Either you have the starting motor on but no electronics or electronics but no.... you get the idea and understand why there was no switch on the ACC buss.
#3-old age CRS-I don't want to have to remember to turn off the charger after a day of charging or to put the charger on the day before a trip.
I drove off one day and forgot to unplug the on-board charger :roll: . Luckily I caught it before I got a few feet. I could just see the looks going down the road dragging an extension cord. :lol:
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Used to be "dry-charge" batteries available. Just add the electrolite and you had a fully charged battery. Good for emergencies since shelf-life was infinite. Don't know if these are still available.
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Used to be "dry-charge" batteries available. Just add the electrolite and you had a fully charged battery. Good for emergencies since shelf-life was infinite. Don't know if these are still available.
I remember those and I think the wet cell, regular everyday batteries are still like that, except someone has added the acid for you before you buy them. (date stamp)
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Got myself out of a jam with a dry-charge when I was working on a 53' ketch years ago down in the Grenadines. When we picked up the boat after being away for a few weeks the cranking batteries for the 4-53 were too far down and the battery for the 6kw Onan genset was dead. The dry charge got the Onan running and from there we could charge the 4-53 bank. Inside of 4 hours we were back in commission. Soon as we were back in the states I put another dry-charge in inventory.
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I drove off one day and forgot to unplug the on-board charger . Luckily I caught it before I got a few feet. I could just see the looks going down the road dragging an extension cord.
I did that once. Now I make sure to lay the cord where it will pull out easily and not damage anything. Have to keep the CRS covered.
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Dragging the extension cord can't be as embarrassing as the woman I saw a year or so ago driving along with the gas station fuel nozzle and hose still in her filler.
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Best thing out there now is one of those $50 jump starters. Keeps a charge for 6 months and is ready to go if'n ya need it. Also most of them provide a backup power supply and even a little air compressor. Great insurance for battery failure or whatever (it seems the whatever is what gets us, isn't it?).
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Best thing out there now is one of those $50 jump starters. Keeps a charge for 6 months and is ready to go if'n ya need it. Also most of them provide a backup power supply and even a little air compressor. Great insurance for battery failure or whatever (it seems the whatever is what gets us, isn't it?).
It is usually the whatever that you never thought about.
I have one of those jump start boxes in each car. Now, if I could only remember to charge them...
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Dragging the extension cord can't be as embarrassing as the woman I saw a year or so ago driving along with the gas station fuel nozzle and hose still in her filler.
Ouch :lol:
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what $ figure can be expected to be spent for refurbishing a 22 flatback?
do it yourself $
vs.
boat repair shop $
thanks
tanman
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do it yourself,alot
boat repair shop,just buy a new boat :roll:
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Hard to tell rebuild cost. Depends on what needs doing and how fancy your tastes are. For a simple "user" boat, you could do a transom job only, just to make it safe, and do it yourself for maybe ~ $1000 or so. But again, without knowing what needs doing, any cost estimates aren't really reliable. Keep an eye on the flatback rebuilds going on in the rebuilds forum. They'll give you a fair picture of what's involved.
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Coming back on topic, I posted some questions earlier in this thread and I said that I had copied Blue Seas on it. Well, here is what I sent them:
I'm starting the task of installing a good power management/distribution system and am in the design/investigative stage.
I'll have 2 batteries and have some questions for you.
We have a discussion about this going on here: http://www.classicaquasport.com/forum/v ... sc&start=0 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1583&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Here is a question I posted on the forum and a member suggested sending it your way.
"Here's a question for you:
How would a battery charger affect or be affected by the ACR?
The obvious charger to buy if you have mutiple batteries would be multi-bank and hook to the individual batteries. The charger is designed to distribute current to the batteries in need up to a max of it's current capability. Some also have maintenance mode so you can leave them on for extended periods of time.
With the ACR closing when it senses charging, will it undo or hurt the charger's distribution?
Would you not use a multi-bank charger and let the ACR distribute/control the charging?
Even with individual on/off switches to open circuitry to each battery, the ACR bypasses all that when it closes.
So I'm confused."
Would I need a switch (or relay as someone suggested on the forum) to force the ACR Off when charging to allow the dual bank charger to do it's thing?
Another question is that what I've read states that your ACR closes when it senses charging. I have also read that some motor's charging systems can be damaged if you try to charge both batteries at the same time, which is what I'm thinking the ACR allows when it closes. Is this true? Does the ACR protect the charging source from being damaged?
In the drawing posted on the forum there are 3 on/off switches, two used to control the battery circuits and one to combine.
I'm thinking that your Blue Sea 8080 2 Bank Battery Switch Panel can be used to save critical space and also perform the same functions as these 3 switches. The 8080 has an "engine" on/off and what looks like a "house" on/off and also a crossover/combine switch. In the specs it says the house is protected up to 100A - so is what I'm thinking is a on/off switch marked house, a circuit breaker reset switch? If it is an on/off, what happens if it draws more than 100A?
Sorry for all the questions.
Thanks in advance.
Rick
Here is his reply:
Hello Rick,
You raise a number of good questions. Most of the time an ACR and multistage, multiple output battery will play well together. Until recently, the typical multi-output chargers ran one control program, and had settings for only one type of battery. If all of the batteries in the system are similar in style, this works well. Adding an ACR has little effect and all of the outputs were behaving similarly anyway.
The typical charger would advance from one charging stage to the next after all of the batteries had completed the previous stage. This could result in having the starting battery remain in the absorption stage longer than it might need to while the house batteries were being brought all the way up, but if the charger was not too aggressive, there wasn't much of a problem.
Recently there have been chargers introduced that run different programs for each battery and have multiple output settings to facilitate mixing battery types. One style operates in sequence, feeding one battery for awhile and then moving to the next battery. If you have that style charger, then its function would be interfered with by an ACR. The solution is to limit the ACR to function to work with the alternator and disable it with a relay when the shore charger is active. A small relay with its coil connected to the same source as the charger and its contacts arranged to open the negative connection of the ACR or to provide a disable signal to a control pin depending the the ACR type. All ACR's can be disabled by opening the negative connection, our 7600 and 9112 can be disabled by "grounding" the manual control line, while the 7610 can be disabled by applying positive the the "Start Interrupt" line.
I don't know of any chargers or alternators that can be damaged by working with an ACR. The ACR simply connects the batteries to make a single larger bank during charging. Alternators that are sensitive to battery bank size may be light duty units that cannot provide their rated current for the time required to charge all batteries without over heating. These would be unsuitable for marine use. In systems with start and house batteries and no ACR, the standard practice has been to leave a battery selector switch in the "BOTH" position while charging, manually making the same connection that the ACR makes automatically.
The ACR does not provide any specific protection for the alternator, except to open when the battery voltage falls, as it might if a load, such as an inverter, exceeds the capacity of the alternator.
We offer a number of battery switch panel configurations, and a number of people assemble their battery switch system from individual switches and circuit breakers to suit their needs. The 8080 is very popular with a battery switch for the engine starting circuit, a battery paralleling switch, and a circuit breaker to act as both a switch and circuit protection for the wire feeding the house electrical panel. The circuit breaker is rated at 100A. That means it can protect wire rated at 100A or greater. The circuit breaker will carry higher currents for short periods according to its trip curve, but will trip at about 130A sustained for minutes.
Coast Guard and ABYC standards allow the starting circuit to be run without circuit protection but all other wiring needs fuses or circuit breakers for protection. As battery systems get bigger, there are a number of people suggesting that it is appropriate to put some fusing in the starting circuit as well.
If you tell me more about your system, I may be able to make other suggestions. There are number of good books on boat wiring by Ed Sherman, Nigel Calder, Don Casey, John Payne and others. You might find advice that helps in their books as well.
Best regards,
Wayne Kelsoe, PE
VP of Electrical Engineering
Blue Sea Systems
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Very thorough response. Now you see why we like Blue Sea Systems.
Getting back off topic. :wink:
Dragging the extension cord can't be as embarrassing as the woman I saw a year or so ago driving along with the gas station fuel nozzle and hose still in her filler.
How many of us that know what a drive-in movie theater is have driven off with the speaker still hanging on the window of dad's car. 8)
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ACR makes sense. I'm sold.
JJ:
Our drive-in knew it's customers. Speakers had, it appeared, welded HY80 door hangers and wires backed up with 3/8" cable. The drive-in collected more car doors than it lost speakers. First drive-in movie I saw was Thief of Baghdad, starring Steve Reeves (Karim) and Giorgia Moll (Princess Amina).
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I only lost the window :oops:
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warthog5, I bought a Blue Sea Systems, PN 7650 - Add a Battery. I chose to rewire the whole boat, my question is how did you determine the wire/cable size and more specifically the fuse or circuit breaker rating when you created your schematic?
My boat has 2 AWG cable running to the motor... I bought more 2 AWG cable to wire up the ACR & switch (was that overkill?).
How do I determine the fuse/ circuit breaker rating for the ACR?
I'm running a 1987 Mariner L6 115hp outboard; I don't know how many amps that starter will draw, or how many charging amps will be coming back.
Thanks for any help/ advice, it's greatly appreciated.
Ever since these pix's were posted of the battery wiring I did in Adam's 20ft Mako, I've had request's for a drawing.
Well I finally sat down with my nifty software and drew it out.
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Any advice regarding the fuses / circuit breakers that I should use for my Blue Sea Systems, PN 7650 - Add a Battery?
I have new pictures up, as you can see I'm ready to wire the 2 AWG from batteries to the ACR, so I need to figure this out soon.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/592