Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => Flatback 22-2 Rebuilds => Topic started by: ncrowe on November 25, 2019, 08:50:44 AM
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Hello everyone
Just drove down to Sugarloaf Key yesterday to pick up a ‘67 flatback for my son and I to restore/redo - we’ll be tearing into the boat this week and posting progress - it’s going to be a great experience for my 11 year old and some of his friends to breathe some life back into a revered hull and create something new and improved.
The hull is a ‘67 - came on the trailer - we purchased it for $800 and the owner was kind enough to put new trailer lights, new winch, and new latch on the trailer for us. I brought down 4 wheels and tires with me, and when we arrived he was there and helped install them, he also greased up the bearings for us as well. He told me he had 30 some inquiries about the boat, but decided to sell to us because we knew what the boat was and he liked the fact it was going to be a father son project.
Here’s a few pics - I’ll be updating more throughout the week
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Sweet deal. My kids have done lots of work on mine over the last year. Should be a great project.
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Welcome back Nigel. :salut:
Long time , no read.
What ever became of the CCP?
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The CCP was sold years ago prior to a move to west palm and then St Louis - we have been back in FL almost 3 years now and I just finished up redoing my 2860 prokat - twin Suzuki 300’s - beautiful dive boat and offshore fishing machine, but I’ve always wanted to do a flatback
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Got some work done with my son - he’s enjoying the demo
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Okay - so its time to pull up the floor - we are going to take the boat down to the hull and redo stringers - what is the best way to pull up the floor and get all the foam out. As I started the process I took a circular saw and made a few cuts near the rear. There is no foam in the stringers - the foam is between the stringers. Also I'm not seeing and wood - its only fiberglass over foam?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_E0119.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19472&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_0135.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19469&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_0134.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19475&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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Portable circular saw set to 1/2-5/8” deep around the perimeter of the deck. You may need to go deeper, but it’s better to proceed with caution. Depending on the condition of the core, it may be helpful to cut the deck into sections, again with portable circular saw. Then pry it up with wonderbar, chisels etc.
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Happy Thanksgiving - got more work done this morning - used my sawzall with a demo blade - cut through all the floors like butter - and way less dust than using a circular saw. Also - a little tip for those who don't know - get a cheap bottle of talcum powder and coat yourself with it - I wore shorts and a t-shirt today with flip flops (yes had a face mask and glasses) and just covered myself with talcum powder - zero itching (YAY!!)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-28_a_3_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19478&title=11-28-a-3&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-28_a_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19479&title=11-28-a-4&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-28_a_5_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19480&title=11-28-a-5&cat=893)
So - some work has been done in the past - the transom wood looks good, but I'm still going to yank it out just to be safe. THere looks to be a liner in the boat (all the stringers are attached and the stringer system seems to be one piece. Something strange - the stringers are hollow and the cavities between them were filled with foam. The baitwell forward of the console had been glassed in and you can see it was full of water - most of the foam was dry with the exception of the center stringer area near the rear. There was no foam there, but there were roots and a potato growing there. The roots extended all the way forward (up to the baitwell) under the foam between the stringers.
Anyways - tomorrow I'll be getting the rest of the foam out and pull the center stringers out as well.
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The stringers were fabbed out of the boat and set in all at one time like a liner. There should also be a liner covering the inside hullsides to the cap. If you can get that off gently, you can cut down the lower portion by the amount you raise the deck and re-use it to cover the unfinished hullsides.
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The stringers were fabbed out of the boat and set in all at one time like a liner. There should also be a liner covering the inside hullsides to the cap. If you can get that off gently, you can cut down the lower portion by the amount you raise the deck and re-use it to cover the unfinished hullsides.
Thanks - now I see that
I'm going to be pulling it all out and build a new stringer system - more work, but it'll be done right. There is bits and pieces of an inner liner, but being this was a crab boat, its been patched and botched. The casting platform area there is no liner, but towards the rear of the boat there is one.
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Okay, quick update for today
got center stringer and baitwell out, pulled inner skin off transom.
So to raise the transom, new pieces were glassed in on top of old, then new inner skin (parts of which were bone dry as I was prying it off)
So what should I be doing first; transom or stringers? Also, please comment on how I should do the transom.
I'm thinking I'll take out 1 foot of stringers, and just gut the bulk of the transom given the way it was patched and just give myself a 2" lip all around and do a completely new skin - i'm thinking it will end up being less work in the long run and better end product - advice?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-29_2_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19483&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-29_1_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19482&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-29_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19484&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-29_6_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19485&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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You'll need the aft 18” or so out of the way when you rebuild your transom, so it only makes sense to do the transom first. Then that will give you one last chance to check the hull for square and true before you immortalize it by rebuilding the stringers.
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X2 with mshugg.
Also lay a board across the cap and get good measurements to the top of the existing stringers and document them. Document the existing stringer system as far as distance from each other, from the hullside, height from hull bottom, width at top and bottom. This is history of the original hull in case you change your design mind, like raising the deck height, which is pretty normal..
You will be changing the low point in the hull when you rebuild the transom (maybe it has already been changed if rebuilt before). Here is a link to where I explain the thought compensating for this with the addition of a PVC pipe
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133124#msg133124
Here is a link to where I show what is actual problem
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133556#msg133556
Here is a link to Hawgleg's rebuild that shows the PVC pipe installation to keep a drain at the new low point of the boat
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg134262#msg134262
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You'll need the aft 18” or so out of the way when you rebuild your transom, so it only makes sense to do the transom first. Then that will give you one last chance to check the hull for square and true before you immortalize it by rebuilding the stringers.
Thanks - should I take the outer skin or leave it?
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X2 with mshugg.
Also lay a board across the cap and get good measurements to the top of the existing stringers and document them. Document the existing stringer system as far as distance from each other, from the hullside, height from hull bottom, width at top and bottom. This is history of the original hull in case you change your design mind, like raising the deck height, which is pretty normal..
You will be changing the low point in the hull when you rebuild the transom (maybe it has already been changed if rebuilt before). Here is a link to where I explain the thought compensating for this with the addition of a PVC pipe
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133124#msg133124
Here is a link to where I show what is actual problem
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133556#msg133556
Here is a link to Hawgleg's rebuild that shows the PVC pipe installation to keep a drain at the new low point of the boat
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg134262#msg134262
Thank you - I will definitely be doing the PVC and taking measurements
I’m also debating about how to do new stringers - wood or fiberglass filled with foam - or maybe just rebuild the original 2 -
What’s the best way?
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You'll need the aft 18” or so out of the way when you rebuild your transom, so it only makes sense to do the transom first. Then that will give you one last chance to check the hull for square and true before you immortalize it by rebuilding the stringers.
Thanks - should I take the outer skin or leave it?
I see a lot of holes in the transom but the real question is how is the glass itself? Where they added the wood at the top, is the glass on the outside smooth or can you tell where the patch is? Remove the wood from the transom and then take a good look at the glass. Then you can decide if it is salvageable.
The best way to get the wood out of the transom is to use a skill saw and cut down almost to the fiberglass from the inside and make a bunch of cuts across the transom, maybe 2" apart. Then take an air chisel and start peeling off the wood. If you can find a long chisel, that makes it even easier.
Then it's time to lock the shape of the hull in and make sure it is level and square. You can remove about 8 feet of screws where the cap meets the hull sides and you can cut the cap free at the transom and prop the cap up above the hull - lay a 2x4 under the cap across the hull and figure out a way to lock the shape of the hull in. The 2x4 will help prop the cap up and hold the shape of the hull. You can screw small blocks of wood into the very top of the hullsides and attach the 2x4 going across the hull to the blocks. You will need at least 18" of clear working space forward of the transom to work in when rebuilding the transom.
Now, about those stringers... What is the width between the 2 main stringers you have left? Looks pretty far apart and your deck will sag in between them so you'll need a lot of bulkheads to support the deck. If you plan to pull all the stringers out, then you have a clean slate and can re-enforce the entire hull with an extra layer of 1708 glass or 2. Then your stringers can be whatever you want. I made new trapezoid stringers from scratch using 1708 and glassed them in the hull. Some people use Coosa in a framework that covers the entire hull and they design the storage they need into it. Don't use wood for the stringers (although we have people do that). Search through the Flatback rebuild forum and look for Capt.Matt's rebuild (https://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=5724.0) - he used a lot of coosa and the boat was rock solid when he was done. Working with Coosa is like working with wood but it won't absorb water. Look for boats rebuilt by dirtwheelsFL - he's done a few and uses different approaches.
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Here's how much stuff has been removed from the project so far
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19489&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_5_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19488&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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So - my son and I decided to do a little more work after the clean up, and started removing the transom wood. The cap that was put on to raise the transom popped of with a pry bar in one piece. We then realized that it was not put in properly and started to look at the outer skin more closely. The outer skin was done poorly, and there was a split down the portside where the skin meets the hull side. There was also an infestation of large ants - these suckers were mean!!! IF anyone knows what they are, let us know, my son is really curious to know (see pic)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_15_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19500&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_6_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19498&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_9_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19499&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_10_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19494&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/11-30_20_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19496&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
Once we realized how bad the outer skin was, and seeing how the prep work was done so poorly on the repairs, we decided to just cut out the transom leaving a 3" tab all the way around - this will be less work in the long run and a better finished product. So tomorrow we will finish getting the rest of the wood out, and start grinding back the stringers to layup the new outer skin.
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Wow, you guys have been busy! Guess you answered your transom skin question. :nSalute: What's the plan for the new one?
Also, I call those suckers bull ants and yeah, they can be nasty.
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Wow, you guys have been busy! Guess you answered your transom skin question. :nSalute: What's the plan for the new one?
Also, I call those suckers bull ants and yeah, they can be nasty.
For the transom we’ll use 3 layers of 1708 and we’ll tab 12-8-4 using a melamine board to lay up on as I’ve seen others do
We’ll get the area all ground down to see what we are dealing with in the port side separating - a couple of clamps on the hull sides and the melamine backboard will close the gap up and allow us to secure it properly - then we’ll grind down the crack and repair from the outside with some chop strand - my thinking is if the repair is done right from the inside we should be just dealing with the cosmetics on the outside - any advice would be greatly appreciated !
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Hello and happy December 1st !
So just a quick clean up - ordering some tyvec suits and a grinder and shroud (any advice would be appreciated on the shroud and grinder)
Got the rest of the transom out, and looks like there isn't a liner - I thought there was and started to peel one side - please take a look at the pic and let me know what you think.
Also, what is the best way to deal with the stringer liner? Grind it out, or try to peel it out?
Some pics for your viewing enjoyment
\\(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-1_3_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19504&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
Does this look like theres a liner?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-1_6_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19506&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-1_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19505&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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I guess you need to decide if you're going to totally gut the boat or not. This will decide how to deal with the stringer stuff. At this point I think it is as much work ripping out all the stringers as it is to grind down the bottom portions of the stringers. Yes, those are liners that cover the inside of the hullsides. You may have to pop the cap loose to be able to remove that portion of liner. You want to be gentle when popping that loose. If you destroy it, you'll have a lot of filling and fairing in your future.
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I guess you need to decide if you're going to totally gut the boat or not. This will decide how to deal with the stringer stuff. At this point I think it is as much work ripping out all the stringers as it is to grind down the bottom portions of the stringers. Yes, those are liners that cover the inside of the hullsides. You may have to pop the cap loose to be able to remove that portion of liner. You want to be gentle when popping that loose. If you destroy it, you'll have a lot of filling and fairing in your future.
Thanks Rick - by the looks of it we’ll be pulling out all the stringers at least - the center 2 are too wide apart to leave in as I understand it. And looking at how thin the hull sides are with the liner on (measuring 1/4 inch total at top to 6” down) we’re not going to risk damaging the hull sides to pull a well bonded liner -
Questions -
Grinder dust shroud - any advice?
I was thinking of leaving liner in and perimeter of old floor - is that a problem?
How many layers should I use for new outer skin?
Are foam filled stringers lighter than a comparable method?
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Questions -
Grinder dust shroud - any advice? I haven’t found a shroud that I was comfortable using with a flappy wheel. The wheel is just a so aggressive that I want to see it cutting and didn’t want the additional pull of the vacuume hose. When your a little closer to finish, this sander has a setting for aggressive stock removal, and it works great. https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Power-Tools-Aggressive-Woodworking/dp/B07WK42NC5/ref=asc_df_B07WK42NC5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385272107002&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3543787148384843795&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011811&hvtargid=aud-801381245258:pla-826243574532&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78829231656&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385272107002&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3543787148384843795&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011811&hvtargid=aud-801381245258:pla-826243574532
I was thinking of leaving liner in and perimeter of old floor - is that a problem? Shouldn’t be a problem as long as the hull deck joint is good.
How many layers should I use for new outer skin? It’s best to build out to the same thickness as original, but most of us can’t resist adding a layer or two. Four to six layers of 1708 should get you about 1/4”.
Are foam filled stringers lighter than a comparable method? Not necessarily. Remember Coosa is a denser reenforced foam. If your stringers are in good shape, keeping them and re-tabbing should be good enough and save you time. Wood is probably heaviest, then Coosa, then lighter foam, but as the foam density goes down, you’ll probably need to add more glass.
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Questions -
Grinder dust shroud - any advice? I haven’t found a shroud that I was comfortable using with a flappy wheel. The wheel is just a so aggressive that I want to see it cutting and didn’t want the additional pull of the vacuume hose. When your a little closer to finish, this sander has a setting for aggressive stock removal, and it works great. https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Power-Tools-Aggressive-Woodworking/dp/B07WK42NC5/ref=asc_df_B07WK42NC5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385272107002&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3543787148384843795&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011811&hvtargid=aud-801381245258:pla-826243574532&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=78829231656&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385272107002&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3543787148384843795&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011811&hvtargid=aud-801381245258:pla-826243574532
I was thinking of leaving liner in and perimeter of old floor - is that a problem? Shouldn’t be a problem as long as the hull deck joint is good.
How many layers should I use for new outer skin? It’s best to build out to the same thickness as original, but most of us can’t resist adding a layer or two. Four to six layers of 1708 should get you about 1/4”.
Are foam filled stringers lighter than a comparable method? Not necessarily. Remember Coosa is a denser reenforced foam. If your stringers are in good shape, keeping them and re-tabbing should be good enough and save you time. Wood is probably heaviest, then Coosa, then lighter foam, but as the foam density goes down, you’ll probably need to add more glass.
What an awesome resource this site is!!!
Thanks so much for the response - and we are moving quickly so thank you for the prompt response !
Should I be worried about the distance between the factory stringers? I’m all for saving time
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I’m not sure what you mean by “worried.” It’s usually best not to reengineer any more than necessary. Your boat lasted over 50years, so keeping stringer distances the same should make her good for another 50.
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I’m not sure what you mean by “worried.” It’s usually best not to reengineer any more than necessary. Your boat lasted over 50years, so keeping stringer distances the same should make her good for another 50.
Thanks - The concern is in removing the center stringer - the same thing that Marcel did to his. I'm thinking the original stringers without the center wouldn't work well, so we are going to remove all the stringers and build new ones similar to the later model boats. I like the way dirtwheels did his most recent project, and I think that would work the best. Does anyone know the span between stringers on the later 22.2s with 2 stringers?
Picked up 1.5" Coosa today, 50 yds of 1708, 5 gallons of resin and a gallon of premix fillet material - I'll get the melamine sheet tomorrow and we'll have the transom skin done by the weekend and maybe even the Coosa (we'll see about that).
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Alright - here's a question for those in the know:
What is all this blue stuff? I'm grinding and its basically everywhere - Also they put a truckload of bonding cement down for the stringers and its a HUGE pain to get off - i'm using 40 grit on 4.5" grinder - I think I need something bigger and more aggressive!!
DO I have to grind all of this blue stuff out (its between 2 layers of glass)
If you look at the pic - from right to left - you'll see gray (the bonding cement) - small patch of roving (inner transom skin) - blue stuff (between layers of glass) and then raw glass on the left side - I'm assuming I have to take it down to bare glass??
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-4_2_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19509&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
This picture you can see the roving and then the blue stuff under it
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-4_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19511&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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Alright - here's a question for those in the know:
What is all this blue stuff? I'm grinding and its basically everywhere - Also they put a truckload of bonding cement down for the stringers and its a HUGE pain to get off - i'm using 40 grit on 4.5" grinder - I think I need something bigger and more aggressive!!
DO I have to grind all of this blue stuff out (its between 2 layers of glass)
If you look at the pic - from right to left - you'll see gray (the bonding cement) - small patch of roving (inner transom skin) - blue stuff (between layers of glass) and then raw glass on the left side - I'm assuming I have to take it down to bare glass??
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-4_2_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19509&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
This picture you can see the roving and then the blue stuff under it
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-4_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19511&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
The blue stuff is bonding putty - maybe they ran out of one brand and had this on hand on Friday?? :huh02:
I would go to Harbor Freight and buy a 7" grinder and pick up a couple 24grit flap sanding wheels too. If you can't find one there, HD has some pretty low # grit on flap sanding wheels. These things are vicious at tearing down anything. If you need to remove some of the "roving" (24oz), this grinding wheel will knock it down, just hang onto the grinder (and wear a tyvek plus mask and goggles). You will not regret buying the flap sanding wheels. I also have a HF 4" angle grinder and use 4" flap sanding wheel to get into the closer qtr spaces - just fantastic at getting your work done. I got very good at using it for many things (even my wife complaining about the bottom of her pan being funky - DONE with the flap sanding wheel in a couple seconds - the pan bottom, not my wife ;-) ). Did I mention that the flap sanding wheels are fantastic? :8):
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Oh, and you just need to grind down to clean glass - don't overthink it - post pics and we can advise. You can glass over 24 grit results in some applications but you might need to be more gentle in some areas with a 80 grit wheel. The wheels last a long time. They don't like uncured resin though (don't ask how I know this) and they are ruined after that.
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Oh, and you just need to grind down to clean glass - don't overthink it - post pics and we can advise. You can glass over 24 grit results in some applications but you might need to be more gentle in some areas with a 80 grit wheel. The wheels last a long time. They don't like uncured resin though (don't ask how I know this) and they are ruined after that.
Thanks Rick - for the benefit of the group I decided I'm going to do a little test - and I have so much grinding to do on this hull I might as well share
I got that 7" grinder from HF - also have my 4.5" grinder - also got a belt sander with 24 grit - and I've got a bunch of different types of discs to grind with - I also ordered ZEC 16 grit discs https://www.amazon.com/ZEC%C2%AE-Litex%C2%AE-Grinding-Wheel-Heavy/dp/B00C9FWW0A/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=zec+16+grit+7%22&qid=1575555853&s=hi&sr=1-2 (https://www.amazon.com/ZEC%C2%AE-Litex%C2%AE-Grinding-Wheel-Heavy/dp/B00C9FWW0A/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=zec+16+grit+7%22&qid=1575555853&s=hi&sr=1-2)for the 7" which I've heard on the wooden boat forums are the best - I'll record the process and show the results - I'm a huge fan of finding the best way to accomplish something with the least amount invested
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_33331.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19515&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_3334.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19516&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_3335.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19517&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
Not Sure if this one will work, but has a 90 day guarantee through HF that if I don't like it I can return no questions asked
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/IMG_3336.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19518&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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Make sure you keep all of your fingers, limbs, knees and those of your son away from the very coarse wheels. They can/will damage anything they touch even for a split second, like when you set the grinder down and the edge of the wheel touches. I would start the process with the diablo flap to get used to the torque the 7" will generate from the big wheel. I think you'll be pleased with the performance of the 40 grit flap. Oh and buy a good mask, not one of the paper ones, buy one with replaceable filters and get good goggles. Move a lot of air with a good large fan.
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Make sure you keep all of your fingers, limbs, knees and those of your son away from the very coarse wheels. They can/will damage anything they touch even for a split second, like when you set the grinder down and the edge of the wheel touches. I would start the process with the diablo flap to get used to the torque the 7" will generate from the big wheel. I think you'll be pleased with the performance of the 40 grit flap. Oh and buy a good mask, not one of the paper ones, buy one with replaceable filters and get good goggles. Move a lot of air with a good large fan.
Thanks - I don’t let my son do any of the grinding - he’s only 11 so he’s not allowed to use any of the cutting or grinding tools - he’s good with a drill and pressure washer.
Got my tyvec suits coming - have the big fans - got some awesome gloves that literally go up to my armpits - got 2 separate masks - anti fog goggles - so as soon as the suits arrive I’ll be grinding away.
I did throw the diamond turbo cup wheel on the grinder to do a real smal test patch - it’s awesome on the bonding cement
Hopefully this weekend we can get the transom done - but it’ll depend on when the tyvec suits arrive
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Okay - so results are in...... took a little time to get all the material in, but yesterday got on the grinder and took care of business.
So if you are grinding and all you have is a 4.5" grinder - to remove large amounts of material (like bonding cement for stringers) - you'll want to use the diamond turbo cup from harbor freight - its meant for concrete. Not only does it chew through material, it also leaves a flat surface thats relatively smooth. If you are removing gelcoat, use a 5" backing pad and resin disc, makes really short work of the gelcoat and is easy to control depth. If you don't care about how long it will take and want to stay with the 4.5" grinder - flap disks will work, but for heavy material removal you'll find the flap disk will wear. In my very humble opinion the ZEC disks are the way to go. They do not clog at all, and they easily run through whatever you put in front of them.
Fr those who want to go 7" and make really short work of removing lots of material - ZEC disks come in 1st place again - I was able to remove all the material and get to glass in less than an hour
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-10_1_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19544&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
So there you have it - ZEC disks for the win - I'm going to finish up preparing the transom today and I'll show progress
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Thanks for the report.
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Ditto with mshugg.
The ZEC looks to be a beast. What distance from the transom (inside) do you show here?18" is a minimum so you have room to work and the overlaps of glass will work out to at least that if you use 4",8",12".
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Ditto with mshugg.
The ZEC looks to be a beast. What distance from the transom (inside) do you show here?18" is a minimum so you have room to work and the overlaps of glass will work out to at least that if you use 4",8",12".
Welp - just measured and I'm at 15" - more grinding!
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When you start laminating the layers on the inside of the transom you'll be laying glass on the hull bottom and hull sides and usually use 4" 8" and 12" overlaps, then new core and then 3 more layers with the same 4" overlap. So you'll need to either cut back the side liner or pop it out of the hull totally.
You'll also want to add a pipe because your low point is going to change and the water will pool up about 12-15 inches in front of the transom.
Here is a link to where I explain the thought of the PVC pipe
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133124#msg133124
Here is a link to where I show what is the actual problem
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133556#msg133556
Here is a link to Hawgleg's rebuild that shows the PVC pipe installation to keep a drain at the new low point of the boat
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg134262#msg134262
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Thanks for all the help guys - just want to make sure I'm good to go - please take a look at the photos - I ground back to 18" and there is no liner in the boat - there are a few spots of filler in the corners, do I need to remove it (its in areas I'd be making the filleted radius)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-19_1_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19560&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-19_2_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19561&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-19_3_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19562&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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I would say you are good to go. Just give it a good acetone bath first
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:thumright:
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Looking plenty clean now. Cute pup - I wouldn't want to sneak into your back yard to take a peek of your rebuild ;-)
So, have you decided on the transom design? If you want to mount a motor directly to the transom that you can trim up all the way then you really only have a notched transom option for a 20" engine or a 25" motor if you decide on raising the transom 5". A full transom with only a electric or hydraulic jack plate will be a problem, it won't raise enough to trim above the steering or hydraulic line if using a bay or seastar hydraulic steering system. Reports have posted that the hydraulic lines can be sheered off because of the transom being in the way. Otherwise the options are a fixed bracket or porta-bracket that allows the motor to tilt up while being off the transom. The latter being a heavier transom because of the offset of the motor from using a jackplate or a Porta.
Whichever transom you choose, now is the time to figure out the length and width of each layer of glass for the lamination of the new transom skin to the hull sides and hull bottom. Using melamine across the back to work from. The way you cut your cloth/resin it after that depends on the end result. I mounted a 1x2 across the top of the hull sides at the very aft and clamped the 3 layers of 1708 that are layered with 4,8,12" pre-cut, to the 1x2. I folded the first into the boat and I trimmed and pleated in the corners. It really doesn't matter if you go with 12/8/4 or 4/8/12 as they'll all be done wet on wet with the fillets being done prior. Flip in the next layer and trim and then the 3rd layer. Then flip all the layers out of the boat, squeeze in and form all the corner fillets with thickened resin (bottom edge and hull sides). Now is the time to glue in the PVC pipe using thickened resin. Let the fillets set up so that pressing on them don't allow them to move. then mix up enough small resin mixes to continue laminating the 1708 for the new skin.
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Well we got the outer skin done yesterday - used 3 layers 1708 for the cutout area and then 3 layers at 12, 8 and 4 inches - the outer portion came out amazing - smooth and straight. (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-27_1_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19570&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
The inner portion where we are going to glue the coosa into is going to need work - so question: should I grind the new glass flat or grind the coosa? My thoughts are it will be easier to grind the coosa to match the 2" lip around the transom than to grind the lip - please look at the pics and advise - thanks!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-27_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19572&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-27_5_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19574&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-27_3_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19571&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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Great job! You’re moving in the plus direction now.
You can put a radius at the bottom of your Coosa to get a better fit in the corners. I’m not sure what’s going on at the top. If that’s just a random blob of glass, grind it out. If it’s something like a hull deck seam, I’d stop the Coosa before you het to it. Your thickened resin will fill some gaps, but you don’t want to use to much. It’s heavy and adds little in the way of strength. You also have the option of adding a layer or two of glass to your inner skin to build it out to level.
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Looking good. As mshugg mentioned, round the edges of the coosa that touch all the corners. You'll also be adding fillets in the corners on top of the new glass to help the coosa fit. Is it only the one side that the 2" lip is interferring? How thick of coosa are you using? You want the core to lay pretty close to the new inside skin. You'll be mixing thickened resin and troweling it on the inside skin, but usually only use a 1/4" notch. Looks like you have more than that in gap. If you grind that lip/hump down from the inside you'll cut through the new glass. If the one lip is the problem, I would agree with you to contour the coosa. Also before you trowel on the thickened resin, you'll want to scruff all news glass with at least 80 grit.
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Yeah like they said, if you round over the inside corners it should sit in a little better. I would start there and then see how it looks. I wouldn't want to grind out too much of the new glass since it is essentially holding it all in. Those three extra layers won't do you any good if you grind them out right at the corners. Also, not sure if you are using poly or epoxy but it may be worth the extra $$ for some epoxy to fill the gaps that are left since it will have more structural strength than the poly.
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I see now that that is the step from the lip formed by your old transom. I should have read your description better. I’d be inclined to layer in 2 or 3 more layers of glass to bring the hollow up to level with the inside skin. It would be better than any other filler.
When you tab new glass into old, it’s best to grind a taper into the old glass. Twelve to one is the generally accepted ration, so of your skin was 1/4” thick, you would taper back 12/4” or 3”. Then you layer in your glass so that it creates a level transition. There are two schools of thought, bigger pieces first, or smaller first. I now subscribe to the bigger pieces first, because you won’t be grinding through your full size pieces of glass to get a level surface. In something structural, like a transom, you would then add full layers that lap I to the hull sides over your level skin.
Your transom will be fine. In fact by building out the hollow, you would be creating an inside out version of what I described.
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Take string and stretch it across the outside of the transom - is it a flat line or a bowed line?
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I see now that that is the step from the lip formed by your old transom. I should have read your description better. I’d be inclined to layer in 2 or 3 more layers of glass to bring the hollow up to level with the inside skin. It would be better than any other filler.
When you tab new glass into old, it’s best to grind a taper into the old glass. Twelve to one is the generally accepted ration, so of your skin was 1/4” thick, you would taper back 12/4” or 3”. Then you layer in your glass so that it creates a level transition. There are two schools of thought, bigger pieces first, or smaller first. I now subscribe to the bigger pieces first, because you won’t be grinding through your full size pieces of glass to get a level surface. In something structural, like a transom, you would then add full layers that lap I to the hull sides over your level skin.
Your transom will be fine. In fact by building out the hollow, you would be creating an inside out version of what I described.
Went a different route - but I think it'll all work out the same
Yeah like they said, if you round over the inside corners it should sit in a little better. I would start there and then see how it looks. I wouldn't want to grind out too much of the new glass since it is essentially holding it all in. Those three extra layers won't do you any good if you grind them out right at the corners. Also, not sure if you are using poly or epoxy but it may be worth the extra $$ for some epoxy to fill the gaps that are left since it will have more structural strength than the poly.
Thanks - I did grind a little and it's much better now
Take string and stretch it across the outside of the transom - is it a flat line or a bowed line?
Rick - the outer skin is nice and flat
:1rij:Problem solved! I ground some material from the coosa and now the entire board sits flat. just trimmed 1/8 - 1/4" where needed around the perimeter (2" around the edge at the most). I figured this would be the best way to do it with the least mount of effect on any structure
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-28_2_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19579&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
I might shave a touch more here - maybe another 1/8"
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-28_1_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19578&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
Also made some large clamps today - used some non marring wood clamps from HB and then extended them with some select pieces of 1x3 - I made 7 of them for about $60
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-28_3_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19580&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-28_4_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19581&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-28_5_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19582&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/893/12-28_6_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19583&title=67-aquasport&cat=893)
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Looking nice. I know I wanted to do it all in one day but with something as important as this it's good to take your time and get it right.
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Looks better. Make sure you round off the rear edges so you don't have an abrupt edge different from the round fillet you'll add next before troweling the thickened resin to bed the coosa in.
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Question: can you make fillet material out of poly? I have been purchasing a premise fillet material by the gallon, but I’m sure there’s a way to make it. I was told it’s more complicated than just mixing in some solids (cabosil or whatever)
Does anyone have a recipe to make the peanut butter from poly?
Thanks!
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Yes, you can make Polly based filler. The big difference is with Polly you add catalyst after adding filler; with epoxy you add filler last.
Fillers can be talc, wood flour, milled fiber, chopped fiber, micro balloons, glass spheres, and silica. The balloons and spheres are better for fairing. For fillets, I like 50% milled fiber, 25% wood flour and 25% cabosil. You’re going for a peanut nutty consistency.
The exact ratio isn’t important. Too much silica can be brittle. Too much wood flour can absorb so much resin it makes for a dry fillet. The chopped fibers are stronger, but harder to get smooth. I think most premixed fillers (bondo) use talc instead of woodflour.
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There are a lot of different recipes for it but it always seemed to me that buying the premixed stuff was more cost effective and consistent. You can get a gallon of putty from FGCI for $57. By the time you buy everything to make your own you'll be close to that easy plus you'll have the hassle of mixing it vs opening a can and going. Just a thought.
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I used Duraglass to fair some of the bottom of hull but always mixed fillet material myself. Usually you don't have much fairing to do on fillets. The key to getting good smooth fillets is to use the right tool. Mix your "putty" with one of these, makes the putty nice and smooth - https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-1-gal-Helix-Paint-Mixer-HM1-HDX/206509381
To spread/form the fillets you can use wooden spoons of different sizes or make your own to fit the space needed. Big paint stir sticks (like for 5 gal buckets, free from HD and Lowes, are a good start too. Then use a grinder to round it off to fit the corner and also round off the edges. You can cut the big stir sticks in half and make 2 from each. Over the course of your rebuild you'll end up with a few sizes.
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Another thing that’s helpful is getting consistent amounts of material into the corners. Grout bags allow you to pipe an even amount. These are what I used: https://www.amazon.com/Kraft-Tool-WL009-Disposable-50-Pack/dp/B00SYE2M46/ref=pd_sbs_469_t_0/135-5665126-1857211?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00SYE2M46&pd_rd_r=94769ef4-36dc-40d8-933e-b15f205f88ba&pd_rd_w=b6dbV&pd_rd_wg=GYfSv&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=HR33JZ17DCC9CP8MGT3G&psc=1&refRID=HR33JZ17DCC9CP8MGT3G
Some people use pastry bags, or a zip top bag with the corner cut off, but grout bags are tougher and easier to work with.
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Yup, agree with mshugg, choose the bag you'll use (I used a gal size freezer bag with corner cut off - whatever works for you).
A trick is lay a pencil flat on the core that is sitting in dry and mark a line along the hull sides and bottom. This should be about a 1/4" inside the boat from the core. You should be planning to trowel thickened resin (1/4" notch) onto the inside of the transom to bed the core. The line you drew with the pencil shows where you don't want to trowel past, so you can trowel a couple inches of resin on the hullsides and hull bottom to help fill the corners and edges. If you get lucky you may not need a fillet if you trowel it on thick enough in the corners.
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Any progress?
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Have to put the boat up for sale - my youngest has some health issues that need to be resolved (heart and respiratory) - So I'll pass this boat along to another member
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I saw the ad for it the other day. I actually thought about it but my wife would kill me if I brought another project home. I have always liked the look of those old flatbacks.
Sorry to see it go, good luck with the sale.
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I saw the ad for it the other day. I actually thought about it but my wife would kill me if I brought another project home. I have always liked the look of those old flatbacks.
Sorry to see it go, good luck with the sale.
Thanks Mike - hopefully someone from the forum is looking for a good deal - I'm asking $2200 for everything including all the materials and canopy
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Good luck Nigel.
All our best for you and your family. :salut:
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Good Evening everyone!
I picked this up from Nigel today, and it just seems right to continue his thread as the build goes forward. I have a 1977 222, that we use as a crab and mullet boat, but my wife wants something a little more kid and sandbar friendly.
I am sure I will have a ton of questions, and will do my best to search the forum and try to only ask for clarification of things I don’t understand.
The end state for the boat will be to run a 175 Verado on a porta bracket with a 1/2 tower (not a fan of tall towers on small boats). I’m sure I’ll find a ton of things to add as I search around.
Nigel was awesome to deal with. I found the boat listed elsewhere since I wasn’t a member here, and after I joined the forum he honored the price he had it listed for here which was a little less. Pretty cool thing to do in my opinion.
Time to start grinding away. Literally.
Chris
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Welcome aboard Chris.
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Good on ya Chris. :salut:
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Excellent. It’s good to see the build continue.
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Welcome! It looked like a pretty good deal and I am glad to see you take over the thread
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I have posted this back in the classified section.
Life has taken a turn and I doubt I will be able to touch this project for some time.
Wish I could have gotten to it, but it wasn't meant to be.
Chris
1-941-405-9689