Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Engines & engine woes => Topic started by: Brendanpd28 on June 28, 2017, 02:59:50 PM
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Since I had some bogging down issues I decided to remove my fuel filter and take a peek of course. This is what I found. I have no idea what these white chunks are!! And the separation. Anyone ever seen this before? I have a brand-new 27 gallon aluminum tank, all new fuel lines, etc...
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Wow - did you fill up at a place that has a lot of business, so they replace fuel often? Was it recreational fuel or ethanol?
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A very busy fuel dock in Marblehead, Ma. Today I did a seafoam shock treatment, and changed the plugs, and changed the fuel water separator. Had her idling great again. Went for a cruise around the harbor. Everything was great....then on my way back in she bogged down out of nowhere agin. A launch driver was kind enough to give me a hip tow back to my slip. I'm am honestly at a loss. I guess I will do a fuel pump rebuild and maybe get my carbs rebuilt as well?
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Yikes. Seems like the prudent thing to do would be clean everything inc. hoses & tank & fuel system. What a massive PITA. I feel for you.
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I'll guess. :ScrChin:
Ethanol fuel.
Phase separation.
Fuel is on top (bluish color)
Water saturated ethanol below (lighter/clearer).
Excess water (ethanol unable to absorb) and "trash" on bottom (white).
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Serious PITA lol...I just don't know where to start! Tank, lines, filter, and everything are brand new!!! Like I said...at a loss. I use fuel stabilizer with every fill up as well. I'm hoping someone has a recommendation of where I go from here.
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Woodeneye...I hear ya about cleaning out the system but I have no idea how to go about that. I have 15 gallons in my tank right now!!!
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Something like this:
http://www.mainefuelpolish.com/Marine_Vessels.html
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How long has the fuel been in the tank?
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A very busy fuel dock in Marblehead, Ma.
Do they offer non-ethanol? I agree with Capt Bob on what he's thinking and the solution is to get it "polished". I would say that since everything is new, the crap is coming from the fuel dock. Take a clear bottle and fill from that source and look at it.
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Rick, I honestly do not know if they offer non-ethanol. E10 is everywhere around here. Woodeneye, there is almost always 5 gallons or so still in the tank when I do a fill up. Even my new WEMA sending unit will say there is 1 gallon left but there is actually close to 5 im thinking. I added 15 gallons to the tank from the fuel dock on Sunday. I was out all day hopping around to local coves, and the first bog down happened at the very end of the day heading back to Salem harbor. So the timeline does sound like the bad gas came from that mornings fill up. If the phase separation is THAT bad, Im not sure "polishing" is the way to go right? Maybe I should just pump out all the gas and start fresh. It will take a long time since the only method I have is using the existing fuel line and bulb to manually pump out the gas lol!! I also have no idea where to dispose of that much gas around here. I will look into that. Always something with a boat!
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Just thought of an idea.... Remove the sending unit and use my manual bilge pump to pump out all of the water settled at the bottom of the tank. Will most likely just pump the entire tank out and start fresh though.
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I would show that pic to the marina and tell them they may have a problem in the tanks. Maybe you filled up when their tank was low?
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Good idea Rick. My buddy is an assistant harbormaster in that town and told me today they've had issues with that fuel dock before. Really sucks I fell victim to it. I feel like water also must be getting into my vent somehow though. I'll throw a clamshell over it.
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Phase seperated ethanol fuel. A marina should not be selling ethanol fuel. I'd take that jar to the harbor master and ask him WTF? And have them pay to clean out your system.
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Ethanol fuel. What a nightmare. It just causes no end of problems for the US and they are trying to mandate its use here in Australia! More about agricultural lobbyists if you ask me.
Does anyone know where to get non ethanol fuel around Westport MA? As an aside does anyone think that the ethanol fuel additives actually do anything to stop it gumming up and separating?
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Wingtime, i'm going to call Marblehead trading company who owns that fuel dock tomorrow. But honestly, I'm sure they're going to tell me to go screw basically.
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Ethanol fuel. What a nightmare. It just causes no end of problems for the US and they are trying to mandate its use here in Australia! More about agricultural lobbyists if you ask me.
Does anyone know where to get non ethanol fuel around Westport MA? As an aside does anyone think that the ethanol fuel additives actually do anything to stop it gumming up and separating?
Google "non ethanol gas stations near me"
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Just thought of an idea.... Remove the sending unit and use my manual bilge pump to pump out all of the water settled at the bottom of the tank. Will most likely just pump the entire tank out and start fresh though.
Consider something like this siphon pump instead. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014LEQC98?psc=1&widgetName=sp_syn_da_mobile_web&adId=200003728158611&widget=sp_syn_da_mobile_web&qualifier=1498830214&id=79855004033806&ie=UTF8&spPl=1&tag=dradisplay-20&ascsubtag=7ceb84f4145fab0b2f503caf9a35aee7_CT&ref=dra_a_rv_mr_ho_xx_P1400_1000
It will be safer and easier to control where the fuel goes. I'm sure that you could make your own with tubing and a fuel primer bulb.
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Update: removed the quick connector from the end of my fuel line so I could just use my existing primer bulb to pump the fuel out of my tank. First picture is of the fuel I drained from the water separator after pumping out a few gallons. Second picture is after I pumped out about 10 gallons. Looks to me like I got all of the separated fuel out of the bottom of the tank. Unfortunately I wasn't able to test run the motor, sense when I was trying to rebuild my fuel pump I lost a spring overboard. Spent about an hour diving and trying to find it with no luck Lol. I think it's a good idea I get an entire new fuel pump assembly anyway, instead of just replacing the gaskets and diaphragm. I will get a new fuel pump from my local Evinrude dealer tomorrow, hook her up quick, and give the motor a test run. Thank you for all of the input as always.
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Looks much better. I would find a source of non-ethanol. As said earlier, the marina should not have ethanol. Maybe they got some ethanol by mistake and it loosened all the shellac in their tank.
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Thanks Rick. The fuel dock i usually use actually isn't a marina, it's privately owned by Marblehead trading company. There's another fuel dock a little deeper in the harbor at the Boston yacht club. I will be using that fuel dock for now on. I'm just hoping the phase separated fuel hasn't done any damage to the internal components to my motor. Fingers crossed. I am going to pick up a new fuel pump tomorrow and I will post on my results.
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Ethanol is a solvent so it'll loosen anything it can. Most of your stuff was replaced.
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Good point Rick...thank you. I got a new OMC fuel pump today and will be installing it later. My last concern is the Carb bowls. I ran the motor quite a bit before I noticed the water problem. Do I need to somehow drain the bowls now? I am not sure if this can be done on the 88 SPL motors without removing the carbs.
This is the link to a carb schematic of my motor.
https://www.marineengine.com/parts/johnson-evinrude-parts.php?year=1990&hp=88&model=E88MSLESA&manufacturer=Evinrude§ion=Carburetor
Thanks!
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I'm not a motorhead - someone that is will pop in to answer you.
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No worries Rick, thank you. I discovered those lower plug screws for the high-speed jets were the proper place to drain the carb bowl's. Got her started out an idling for about a half an hour today with some more seafoam added to the fuel. Have yet to take her for a test run though. I wasn't in the mental state today to get another tow, worst case scenario lol. I will post on the results of the first cruise after all of this.
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Update: installed the new fuel pump the other day and ran her at idle for at least a half an hour. Ran her again today for a while at idle and did about a two minute putt just around my slip. Seems to be running OK, just not as smooth as usual it seems. There's also a constant fuel slick around the motor. I've checked everywhere for a fuel leak but it seems to just be coming from the exhaust. Decided to inspect the new plugs now that I've had her running for a little bit. Below are the pictures of all four plugs. Last one looks to be a little lean to me but I'm no expert.
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Well I'm gunna go ahead and say it's my tank vent. My buddy had the boat out the last 2 days with no issues. I decided to check the filter today before heading out and this is what I found. Pumped out all the water again. Gunna throw a clamshell or something over the vent.
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It never occurred to me that a vent was letting in water. Is this a new location for the vent?
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Hey Rick,
It was a thought that it could be coming from the vent but I really didnt think so because of the large quantity of water. The vent is the same location as the original but it is a different style vent......a BAD STYLE. Below is a picture of one. Both vent holes face downward but the front one faces towards the bow and probably gets riddled with splash water! I will need to get a large clamshell to cover it and face it downward and aft.
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The plot thickens.........
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I unfortunately have a lot of experience with these issues. I highly doubt its the gas dock. You need to find out of its saltwater or rain water getting into your boat.
I would first check the top of the fuel tank, if you have an access hatch leading to it. Water could be pooling up due to a bad seal in console or hatch, then getting in via the sender. You said you got a new WEMA?
I would also detach the fill and vent lines at the fuel tank, place a pig under the detached lines (they must be done separately) and wash the boat down or run the boat at crusing speed, and see if they are getting water onto the pig.
Are you leaving your tank full most of the time, or half / quarter full? I'm also in the northeast and with the big temperature changes, you can absorb water if the tank isn't left full. I notice in the fall when there's really big swings (70 degrees by day to 30 at night) my filter picks up a ton of water.
Just a few thoughts... Good luck
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I unfortunately have a lot of experience with these issues. I highly doubt its the gas dock. You need to find out of its saltwater or rain water getting into your boat.
I would first check the top of the fuel tank, if you have an access hatch leading to it. Water could be pooling up due to a bad seal in console or hatch, then getting in via the sender. You said you got a new WEMA?
I would also detach the fill and vent lines at the fuel tank, place a pig under the detached lines (they must be done separately) and wash the boat down or run the boat at crusing speed, and see if they are getting water onto the pig.
Are you leaving your tank full most of the time, or half / quarter full? I'm also in the northeast and with the big temperature changes, you can absorb water if the tank isn't left full. I notice in the fall when there's really big swings (70 degrees by day to 30 at night) my filter picks up a ton of water.
Just a few thoughts... Good luck
Thanks for the advice! My issue with your method is the only access I have to the tank is through a deck plate which gives me access to the sending unit and grounding tab only. I am positive the deck plate is not leaking and the sending unit is also tight. I check it every trip and the tank is always bone dry. I unfortunately have no way to access the fill and vent connections at the tank without adding some sort of hatch which I WILL do if necessary. But if you saw the way my vent was setup I think you would be pretty confident that it is the culprit. The deck fill is also brand new and high quality so I doubt it is the source. I will install a large clamshell cover facing aft and at a slight downward angle. I will be FREQUENTLY inspecting my fuel water separator as well. What also leads me to the vent being the culprit is when my buddy had the boat out the other day, he has just putting the harbor and I made sure he checked the filter back at the slip. 100% premix. The next day he went at least 6 miles up the coast in some mildly choppy conditions and he DID NOT check the filter when he returned. It was the next morning when I went down and found the filter full of water again. Just trying to eliminate possibilities here lol.
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Good article in this July's Soundings magazine regarding correct install of fuel tank vents. Any vents for that matter. Couldn't find a online link. Sorry.
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I just found out that you can now get Racor clear view water-seperating fuel filters with a built in primer pump. It's kind of a cute little unit -
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C311%7C2349059%7C2837510&id=1940998
https://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Service/EB00033_Marine_Gasoline_Spin-on_Filters.pdf
I've had good luck with Racor & the clear bowl with the drain spigot makes it easy to see when you have water/sludge & get it out.
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hi, saw this was a recent post so thought I would chime in. have the exact same issues and after pulling my hair out for several seasons (including getting towed with the inlaws onboard) have concluded it is the fuel vent as well. same design (seadog I think), letting salt water rushing up the hull in chop right into the tank. I have a month old ETEC which died after one week. I took a sample of the water separator bowl and I looked just like one of your photos. I added a hatch near the fill lines, added a loop in the vent line so any water intrusion would drain out and not into the tank, changed the vent type to a flush one and added a big clamshell to protect against spray and rain. I also drained the tank bone dry, polished the gas just to be sure. running awesome for 2 weeks now. I know this is frustrating so hope this helps you get going again.
PS i hate ethanol fuel MORE then anyone else, but in NY we can't easily get anything on the water else so its not part of the solution equation. Most boat don't have any trouble so it must be something else. Goodluck
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https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY
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I feel your pain man!! I ended up installing a large clamshell over the vent and haven't had water since. Haven't had a lot of time for the boat though since my wedding was on 8/12....but I'm back in action now!!! Motor has been running well but I still need to do a compression test. I'm figuring the large amount of water was causing all of my issues.