Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => 165/170/175 Rebuilds => Topic started by: minionsram on April 21, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
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Well this is my first real post. Some information on the boat. 1987 AS 170. 1996 Evinrude 115 that the bro was bypassed by previous owner. Turning a 13*19 aluminum prop. The cavitation plate is about 3/4 to 1 inch below the bottom v of the boat. The motor is on the top most hole. With just myself a half tank of fuel and fishing gear I run 42mph according to the raymarine dragonfly 7. With 3 adults and gear I can get 36-37 mph at @5100 rpm. The two batteries are mounted under the console and I normally don't fill the livewell/cooler combo and use it for mainly dry storage. The boat has a few coats of bottom paint that is going to get removed because it never sits in the water over a camping trip amount of time So now I have all the information I think y'all would need now to my ideas for the boat.
More storage. I am looking at getting some of the in-deck storage units from TH marine. Anyone used these and how they work?
My cooler seat is a sad unit. It was missing the cooler when I got it so I ratchet strap my igloo down to the frame and put the throwable cushion on top of that. I rarely sit down and was thinking of building a leaning post that has some storage. What ideas have y'all done for that?
I have read in the sight a heap about the scuppers issues on these boats. I know I have a heap of engine on the back of the boat. I normally just plug the scuppers from the inside until I need them to function lol. I was thinking of building some flotation pods as large as possible each side of the motor that follow the lines of the hill and then putting a small set back bracket on the motor. I read wh3re the Armstrong brackets are not advised for these boats due to the short length of them, causing issues with the center of gravity and running lines of the boat. I was thinking if I built some flotation pods to offset the distance of the motor set back I would be good. Anyone tried this yet?
I can't complain about this boat. I bought it for 1100 bucks, decarbed the motor, tuned it, cleaned carbs etc, rewired the bad wires and installed led nav, anchor and console lights and have been fishing the hell out of it with the wife. The galvanized trailer I hate bit it works for now lol. I fish the skinny shallows, the lake on big water and shallow. I run it up the rivers and plan to head to the coast to do some shrimping as soon as the season opens here in sc. If I could get the storage issue fixed I would be content for a bit with this ole AS boat. It's solid, only one slightly spongy area on floor, the foam doesn't seem to be waterlogged and the transom is solid. I do have some areas of gelcoat that is chipped and dinged and the crack at the back of transom that is the line of the top cap I am working on fixing.
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Welcome aboard - If there isn't pictures, it didn't happen ;-)
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I'll see what I can do lol. Computer down and I have to edit some pics to fit the size requirements
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If you can get to your gallery here on the site and upload them there, the gallery will size them automatically - follow the instructions here
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=12725.0
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My cooler seat is a sad unit. It was missing the cooler when I got it so I ratchet strap my igloo down to the frame and put the throwable cushion on top of that. I rarely sit down and was thinking of building a leaning post that has some storage. What ideas have y'all done for that?
As you've discovered already, storage space is limited on the 17'. And any storage type box you install on deck takes up much needed deck space. But you're on to a good idea. After purchasing my 170, I installed a leaning post. Directly under the seat of the leaning post and in between the 4 supporting legs, a standard size cooler (26" length) will slide under and out of the way. I secure it to the leaning post with 2 small bungee's so it won't slide back while running. If I didn't have this cooler I would not have "dry" storage. So if you are intending to install a leaning post, get one with enough width and depth to accommodate a cooler.
I have read in the sight a heap about the scuppers issues on these boats. I know I have a heap of engine on the back of the boat. I normally just plug the scuppers from the inside until I need them to function lol. I was thinking of building some flotation pods as large as possible each side of the motor that follow the lines of the hill and then putting a small set back bracket on the motor. I read wh3re the Armstrong brackets are not advised for these boats due to the short length of them, causing issues with the center of gravity and running lines of the boat. I was thinking if I built some flotation pods to offset the distance of the motor set back I would be good. Anyone tried this yet?
The scuppers do seem to be an issue for many operators. I've bolded your words above because in my opinion it's what you should do. Unless you plan to leave your boat in the water for days, months at a time, I do not understand why so many have issues.
I too have a 115hp on my 17', a yamaha 2 stroke that's about 50lbs heavier than your evinrude. The scuppers are above the waterline with the boat idle and in calm seas. But it makes no difference to me if they are above or below waterline because I simply plug the scuppers before launching boat. There are only 2 instances when I would want to unplug the scuppers while at sea: I'm motoring through a torrential rain storm AND after using my cast net I rinse down the deck. For the latter, after rinsing down deck I unplug scuppers and jump up on plane to empty deck, then re-plug.
Now bare in mind, the earlier models (60's-70's) do not have the ability to pump water out of the bilge because originally they were manufactured without a bilge pump. And the double-whammy of this scuppers conundrum is if you do leave them unplugged you will inevitably dump water into the bilge. I believe the '87 model of yours has the removable starboard deck tray, where the wiring/hoses/etc. runs from engine to helm. The forward junction of this tray and deck is open, allowing the fuel hose to duck under deck. So whether your boating in calm or ruff seas, the boat will pitch. With the scuppers open, water pours in but not all of it will dump back out. Some water channels into the tray, and as the boat pitches to bow it dumps into the bilge. This will become a serious problem because you have no way to empty the bilge (except to hand pump out via stern access hatch). In a short amount of time the bilge will fill because water will accumulate quickly. And you'll know this when you throttle up on plane because of the engines sluggish performance due to extra load laying in the bilge.
Some owners have installed a bilge pump in the earlier model 17's (RickK), but this is usually done during a restoration project with the deck lifted. If your model does have a bilge pump, then disregard all of the above, leave scuppers open/closed, doesn't matter cause you can pump water out. If you don't have a bilge pump I recommend leaving scuppers plugged...because why would you need to leave them open if not for a specific purpose, as noted above.
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I only did a partial rebuild on my 1976 170. I went with a deck jnjection vs a full sole replacement. I did not like the idea of no bilge pump so I installed one with a built in automatic float switch. It was a little tricky but I managed to do so through the 4" pie plate at the transom. The key is to get a built in float unit so u don't have to install a separate float switch. With the 300 lb. 88 hp rude I have on her the scuppers dip below the waterline often. I installed the th marine ping pong ball scuppers and they work great. Had my boat on a mooring all last season with no issues. Good luck with ur aqua!
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I only did a partial rebuild on my 1976 170. I went with a deck jnjection vs a full sole replacement. I did not like the idea of no bilge pump so I installed one with a built in automatic float switch. It was a little tricky but I managed to do so through the 4" pie plate at the transom. The key is to get a built in float unit so u don't have to install a separate float switch. With the 300 lb. 88 hp rude I have on her the scuppers dip below the waterline often. I installed the th marine ping pong ball scuppers and they work great. Had my boat on a mooring all last season with no issues. Good luck with ur aqua!
Couldn't agree more with you, bold above. But being that I have no reason to restore my deck I'm stuck without the overlooked luxury of an electric bilge pump. I've read a lot of reviews for the TH Marine ball drains. Sounds like they do work very well, unless anything other than water runs through them, such as sea grass. This is the reason why I have not installed them on my boat. I throw a cast net on grass flats. After I've caught enough bait I wash down deck. So I can imagine if I did have these ping pong ball scupper drains installed they would immediately become clogged.
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Thanks for the replies fellers. As far as the bilge goes. I have installed one. It's not on a float but on a switch. I tried the ping pong ball scuppers and they did not work for me. The scuppers with me in the boat at the helm and the cooler I have strapped down for a seat makes my scuppers sit right below the water line at rest. I've tried the flapper valves and the ball ones. I was thinking of trying the duck bill ones but I just leave it plugged until I need it. The other reason I was going to build the flotation pods was for two reasons. I could make them a dry storage also. Just don't want to spend the time building all this and it not work.
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Here is the boat lol
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=15724&title=kimg0293&cat=500
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/KIMG0293.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=15724&title=kimg0293&cat=500)
Admin Edit: When you go to the picture in the gallery, if you look down the right side you'll see "Linked Image". The code beside that is what you copy and paste into your post. Your were very close.
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Well I had the wife drive the boat on plane on our last outing to the saluda river. Noticed the cavitation plate was burried in the water. So I raised the motor all the way to the top hole and started out again. The cav plate now rides right at the top of the water. I dont blow out the prop on wot and it cavitates just a small amount in hard turns. We ran it for an estimated 30-40 miles yesterday, up and down the river, stopping along the way to hit some fishing holes. I believe my carbs are in the need for a rebuilding though. I ordered a manual for the engine, the one I have is for an older jhonson evinrude. I have lost rpm sense our last time out. At WOT im only getting 5000-5100 RPM. and loaded down I could only get about 36 MPH. Most of our running this weekend was around 3100-4100 and 25-30 mph to save fuel. Also when it sits at a fishing hole it is a pain in the butt to crank, unless I re-prime the bulb and when it kicks off a plume of smoke gets rid of any skeeters that are around. I think the carbs are gummed up and the needles are not seating all the way.
I had installed a new primer bulb but it seems to be loosing prime any how.
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Also when it sits at a fishing hole it is a pain in the butt to crank, unless I re-prime the bulb and when it kicks off a plume of smoke gets rid of any skeeters that are around. I think the carbs are gummed up and the needles are not seating all the way. I had installed a new primer bulb but it seems to be loosing prime any how.
If you haven't touched the carbs in a couple years I would definitely pull them out for a thorough clean, including making sure all jets are completely clear of debris. You shouldn't need to re-prime the engine after your initial cold start. Being that you are having to re-prime might be the initial signs of the fuel pump beginning to fail. The pump has check valves that prevents back flow of fuel from carbs. These check valves over time become worn and thus loose their effectiveness. Might be time to replace the pump.
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Also when it sits at a fishing hole it is a pain in the butt to crank, unless I re-prime the bulb and when it kicks off a plume of smoke gets rid of any skeeters that are around. I think the carbs are gummed up and the needles are not seating all the way. I had installed a new primer bulb but it seems to be loosing prime any how.
If you haven't touched the carbs in a couple years I would definitely pull them out for a thorough clean, including making sure all jets are completely clear of debris. You shouldn't need to re-prime the engine after your initial cold start. Being that you are having to re-prime might be the initial signs of the fuel pump beginning to fail. The pump has check valves that prevents back flow of fuel from carbs. These check valves over time become worn and thus loose their effectiveness. Might be time to replace the pump.
I probably should of told yall that I replaced the pump already. My bad. sense the previous owner bypassed the VRO and the previous pump was leaking a little and I was having this issue I converted the VRO to one of the old style pumps. Its new and I put a few new lines and clamps
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Well I rebuilt the carbs today, replaced all fuel lines and put on a new Johnson/Evinrude primer bulb on it. Gonna try it at the coast this coming weekend if the weather holds out for me and the wife. I am going to order a hatch to put in the floor in front of the console. Anyone know the open distance between the stringers up front? that would be helpful and keep me from doing some exploratory surgery lol
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Sorry to derail but, do you have a pic of your raymarine dragonfly intalled?
Are you happy with it? I am looking into replacing my sounder and this one looks like a good deal.
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Sorry to derail but, do you have a pic of your raymarine dragonfly intalled?
Are you happy with it? I am looking into replacing my sounder and this one looks like a good deal.
For the money the dragonfly 7 pro is a decent finder. I have the navonics gold charts with it and its decent. There are better but I have no major complaints about mine other than the joystick controls and not a touch screen. ill see if i can dig up a pic of it mounted for you
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Thanks!
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Thanks!
well I had taken a pic of it but I think I deleted it, Ill try to get one of it in a day or so when if get home before dark.
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Well I rebuilt the carbs, replaced all fuel lines on the motor and cleaned and regapped the NGK plugs, and then replaced the primer bulb with a Johnson evinrude one. The wife wanted to go fishing at the coast for her birthday so we carried the boat out for its voyage. It ran great, no issues with starting, and only a very slight skip on idle. The idle was too low in the water, only around 500 rpm in gear and was close to shutting off, but never did. I need to get a book to make sure I have the link and sync done properly.
The water was rough! 2-1/2 ft and a few 4's every once in a while. we only put up with that in the ICW and hit the creeks. Had a blast and the best thing was the new bimini top!
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If you've dialed in the carb mix and the engine responds good, but the idle speed is a little low as you indicated....Start engine on flush and let warm up, 10-15min. Keeping an eye on your tach, turn in the idle speed screw, 1/4 turn at a time. This will increase your idle speed rpms. Set to rpm spec.
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If you've dialed in the carb mix and the engine responds good, but the idle speed is a little low as you indicated....Start engine on flush and let warm up, 10-15min. Keeping an eye on your tach, turn in the idle speed screw, 1/4 turn at a time. This will increase your idle speed rpms. Set to rpm spec.
on the 96 evinrude 115 I dont have a mix screw or an idle screw as far as I know. It is my understanding that its all preset and if the link and sync is proper, with no leaks or clogs then the carbs run as they should
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If you've dialed in the carb mix and the engine responds good, but the idle speed is a little low as you indicated....Start engine on flush and let warm up, 10-15min. Keeping an eye on your tach, turn in the idle speed screw, 1/4 turn at a time. This will increase your idle speed rpms. Set to rpm spec.
on the 96 evinrude 115 I dont have a mix screw or an idle screw as far as I know. It is my understanding that its all preset and if the link and sync is proper, with no leaks or clogs then the carbs run as they should
I'm not familiar with evinrude motors. But I would be surprised if its carbs did not allow you the ability to fine tune mix and speed. Even a 2 stroke lawnmower carb allows this. Look at your engines service manual, fuel section, carb schematic. The mix screw is normally located above and left of each barrel. Idle speed screw can be found by tracing the carb valves linkage rod. At the bottom of the linkage is a lever. A screw seats on top of the lever, allowing you to set the throttle plates.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/829/KIMG0704.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16051&title=kimg0704&cat=829)
well I did a hatch in the floor, works great.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/829/KIMG0705.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16052&title=kimg0705&cat=829)
for large items like lifejackets and things the wife likes, like rugs and pillows lol
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/829/KIMG0702.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16049&title=kimg0702&cat=829)
very suprised the floor and sub system had no moisture, rot or delam to it. the tempress hatch sent in like a dream with some stainless screws and some 5200
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Cool. I'm curious...how deep is this hatch? Like, what is the measurement from top of deck down to hull?
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Thanks!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/829/unnamed1.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16067&title=unnamed1&cat=829)
here it is mounted man. sorry it has taken so long to get you a pic of it.
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Cool. I'm curious...how deep is this hatch? Like, what is the measurement from top of deck down to hull?
Ok the center of the hatch is 10 and 1/2 inches to the bottom flange of the hatch. that is to the top of the center stringer. on the sides of the hatch its 10 inches even to the side of the hull. From the front lip of the hatch you have about 2' of storage before you touch the fuel tank coffin. and of course you can store junk all the way to the front of the deck. any large items would be good from what I see. small ones will fit in the gap that goes under the fuel tank coffin.
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Gotcha, thanks. It's a great idea. Dam sure the 170 lacks dry storage. Did you drop a plastic tub/bin/liner in there, same dimensions as the hatch? Or just stuffing dry items in there and closing hatch? Surprised to hear you say how dry it is under there. I wouldn't expect this to be so.
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Gotcha, thanks. It's a great idea. Dam sure the 170 lacks dry storage. Did you drop a plastic tub/bin/liner in there, same dimensions as the hatch? Or just stuffing dry items in there and closing hatch? Surprised to hear you say how dry it is under there. I wouldn't expect this to be so.
no liner, just stuffing it with junk lol
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Thanks!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/829/unnamed1.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16067&title=unnamed1&cat=829)
here it is mounted man. sorry it has taken so long to get you a pic of it.
Looks great! Good sized unit.
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A 96 Evinrude 115 is not an overweight motor for that boat. The 88-115 OMC outboards were all basically the same motor, with a few minor tuning variations. The biggest difference was the “bubble back” on the 115 as compared to the “flat back” on the 88/90hp versions. The bubble back was an exhaust tuning chamber. The flat backs didn’t breath as well at high RPMs. These motors are all the older cross flow design. Unless you change shaft length, or add/subtract the power trim/tilt system, the weight variation between any of the V-4’s is probably not different by more than 5 pounds. The 88 & 112 specials did not have the VRO pumps. They were designed for pre-mixed fuel & marketed to the commercial sector. Most specials did not have TnT.
It is not uncommon for water to come in the scuppers on a lot of 17’ boats if the operator is standing at the rear. The boats were balanced for just the weight of a V-4 motor at the back & not much more. If you add a bracket, you will throw the center of balance further back & you will have a lot of water coming in through the scuppers. You will also have funny handling characteristics. I tried mounting a Sea Drive on a brand new 25’ Express Fisherman back around 1984 or 85. That was a big mistake. The boat did not like the weight being that far back at all. If you want to run a bracket on that little boat, then it is probably a good idea to first move the fuel tank & center console forward a bit to bring the center of gravity back where it should be. That is a lot of work & I would not want to attempt it unless you are already doing a full deck tear up for some other reason.
I run my boats in the ocean. It is very important for me to have working scuppers. Plugs are suicide in heavy seas & I occasionally find myself in heavy seas. I often fish my little 17 out in water that is more than 600’ deep & sometimes more than 1,000’ deep. I have the ball scuppers & they generally work pretty well at preventing back flow. If they do leak, it’s usually because a small piece of bait or something has washed out from inside the boat & is holding one open. I almost never have a problem from something outside the boat sneaking into a scupper & holding it open. I also have a deck pump in the trough by the scupper holes. Between the ball scuppers & the deck pump, I generally keep a pretty dry deck. I also have a bilge pump down below. I may add a second bilge pump, if I can figure out a good way to run a second outflow hose to the port side of the boat without pulling up the whole top half of the hull. My pumps are all wired on HOA switches. Up is manual on. Center is off. Down is automatic via float switch. The power feeds to one pump runs directly to battery #2 through a self resetting breaker. The other pump runs off of my main distribution panel that goes to battery #1. All outflow hoses have anti-siphon devices, as required by ABYC for discharges less than 12” above the water line.
Idle mix adjustment screws probably are present on any cross flow motor that has carbs. In 96, the factory probably hammered in plugs over the screw heads. This was an EPA mandate that was done to keep the owners from messing with the idle mixture & making the motors run less lean & therefore produce more smog. If you can find the plugs, you can usually drill them out. They are usually made out of a soft steel or aluminum or on rare occasion, brass. If you do drill them, be careful not to drill all the way into the screw heads. Drill a small hole (like 1/8”) & then pry out the plug, using a small punch or screw driver for leverage. On the older motors, at least up through the 70’s, the idle mix screws were openly accessible. Idle speed screws for all cross flows, that I have seen, are on the linkage that also connects to the timing advance up under the flywheel. It’s just 1 adjustment for the idle speed on all 4 carbs. Carb sync is another story. It is more complicated to adjust.
As for storage ideas, the 170 has limited space to work with, but depending on what you do & don’t need, you may be able to rob Peter to pay Paul. If you don’t need a lot of cooler space, then you can probably build a fairly high storage cabinet where your cooler seat is currently located. Or you could just use the cooler under the seat as dry storage & maybe have one of the little soft side coolers kicking around on deck to keep a few things cold. You may be able to build a storage locker into the space on top of the deck, in front of the console, if nobody spends much time sitting in front of the console. You could also do the same on the sides of the console, if you don’t mind having that much raised deck area.
…..Just some ideas.
Nice looking little boat you have there. For $1,100 you stole it. Congrats.
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Thanks Jim. I haven't taken the ole boat out to deep water yet. Ive had it in 4' seas on the ICW though. I was thinking about using a small deck bilge to keep the trough clear. What brand you use and how shallow does it draw? I have also thought about using the duck bill scuppers but am worried they wont flow. Also been drafting and planning to make 2 flotation pods that look a bit like the factory fish boxes that mounted on the back on either side of the motor.
I am going to look at the carbs when I get back from my drill this weekend. For the most part I have the kinks worked out, but with my tinker, rebuild and fabrication disorder I doubt it will ever be 100%. I did install a deck plate forward of the bait tank in front of the console. So far that has been the bees knee's. I am looking at installing a tackle locker somewhere now.
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Here is some unsolicited advise... ditch the NGK plugs in your motor. Lots of people and parts guys are under the impression the NGKs are better for Johnson/ Evinrudes. In this case they simple are not, in fact they can make things worse. Run the mfg recommended plug which should be a Champion QL78YC. They are cheap and they work the best with the late 90s early 2000 carbureted J/E. I think most Walmarts carry them for about $3. Depending on how many hours you run, replace them every year or two.
As for the scuppers get yourself a set of TH marine ball scuppers. I have them on my 170 and know several other members that have them. They are the best ball scuppers you can get. Don't bother with the duck bill scuppers. wast of time and money. Also don't put a bilge pump on the deck, All you need is one below deck in the bilge. The 170 is a self bailing design and with a set of ball scuppers the deck will drain on it's own. Try to carry as much weight forward as you can.
Also I like the hatch in front of the console. Before you installed it you did seal the wood core with epoxy right? 5200 alone is not enough to prevent water intrusion into the core.
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Here is some unsolicited advise... ditch the NGK plugs in your motor. Lots of people and parts guys are under the impression the NGKs are better for Johnson/ Evinrudes. In this case they simple are not, in fact they can make things worse. Run the mfg recommended plug which should be a Champion QL78YC. They are cheap and they work the best with the late 90s early 2000 carbureted J/E. I think most Walmarts carry them for about $3. Depending on how many hours you run, replace them every year or two.
As for the scuppers get yourself a set of TH marine ball scuppers. I have them on my 170 and know several other members that have them. They are the best ball scuppers you can get. Don't bother with the duck bill scuppers. wast of time and money. Also don't put a bilge pump on the deck, All you need is one below deck in the bilge. The 170 is a self bailing design and with a set of ball scuppers the deck will drain on it's own. Try to carry as much weight forward as you can.
Also I like the hatch in front of the console. Before you installed it you did seal the wood core with epoxy right? 5200 alone is not enough to prevent water intrusion into the core.
I reckon I am a bit gunshy of the champions from the old days of getting bad ones out of the box when doing tune ups on the old cars. Ill give them another try. I have one TH marine and one flapper on the boat right now trying them out. the boat sits a bit low in the rear and both of them seep. and as far as the hatch goes I havent sealed with epoxy yet but have plans to. Im ordering some epoxy, glass and other stuff for a few projects, when that gets here I plan on sealing it.
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The pump that I used on deck happens to be a Sahara S500, which is an inexpensive one that is rated for a fairly shallow minimum water depth. It seems to be on par with Atwood or Rule. Some people seem to think that the Rule pumps are a premium name brand, but my experience has told me that they are no better. Any pump that fits in there should be fine. I mounted mine on velcro to make it easier to clean that area after a day of bloody tuna fishing.
I agree with the other poster that said the NGK plugs don't make an old crossflow run any better than a properly selected Champion.
I am curious to know why someone might think that 5200 is not a sufficient sealant in an area where structural reinforcement is not also needed. I've used it for years to plug screw holes below the water line & have not yet had evidence of leakage.
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I am curious to know why someone might think that 5200 is not a sufficient sealant in an area where structural reinforcement is not also needed. I've used it for years to plug screw holes below the water line & have not yet had evidence of leakage.
Respectfully, you've overlooked a few key points made by the member of this thread and the member responding (wingtime). The area they were conversing about is a deck hatch, cut out by member. Wingtime suggested using epoxy to seal the core before installing the hatch. 5200 is a sufficient sealant, as well as used for structural reinforcement. However, structural reinforcement is not required, and 5200 is not indicated for the amount of surface area that requires sealing the deck core. Its the wrong sealing substance to use in this case.
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I pulled up the speck sheet that 3M publishes for 5200. I did not see a limit on the recommended area that could be covered by that material. One of the suggested uses from the manufacturer is the installation of porthole frames. This deck hatch application would seem to me to be very much like a, slightly larger than average, porthole frame. Am I missing something?
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/158782O/adhesive-sealant-5200-tech-data.pdf
I am not saying that glassing in the edges of the deck hole would be anything other than an excellent choice. I am just asking why 5200 would not also be acceptable.
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Top of the last page of the document you referenced...The way I read this is 5200 can be used for "bonding and sealing of a porthole frame" to _____ (fill in the blank). Its primary use is as a bonding agent, the result of which provides a seal. But 5200 is not used for the sole purpose of sealing wood core. And that's what was suggested to the operator....seal the core with epoxy before bonding the hatch to the deck.
Would 5200 do the job? Probably, sure. But why use it. It's incredibly difficult to manipulate. And for this application you'd have to use a putty knife and work it into the wood core. I can just imagine the mess. Epoxy can be mixed to a specific density, allowing for a much easier application. Once the core has been sealed, then bond the hatch to the deck. But I wouldn't even use 5200 in this case. The hatch doesn't bear weight, doesn't need flexibility, etc. Silicone will do the job.
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5200 is an excellent sealant but it's not a water barrier. I have seen plenty of screws etc sealed with 5200 that have leaked and failed over time leading to deck and transom rot. The best way to install that hatch is to use epoxy and 5200. In a perfect world you would drill the screw holes oversize and cut back the exposed deck core in the cut out. Then coat the exposed core with epoxy and then fill with an epoxy filler. This seals the core from ever having a water intrusion. Then you redrill the screw holes to the proper size. Install the hatch using 5200 to seal the screw and create a gasket to keep the deck water tight.
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I tried mounting a Sea Drive on a brand new 25’ Express Fisherman back around 1984 or 85. That was a big mistake. The boat did not like the weight being that far back at all.
Interesting,
I agree that a bracket on a 17' requires a good deal of planning but I am a little surprised that the 25XF didn't handle it well. I ran one on my 84 CCP (222) and it performed very well. I would have guessed that the nose heavy XF would have tracked and performed very well also.... :ScrChin:
Oh well.
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I tried mounting a Sea Drive on a brand new 25’ Express Fisherman back around 1984 or 85. That was a big mistake. The boat did not like the weight being that far back at all.
Interesting,
I agree that a bracket on a 17' requires a good deal of planning but I am a little surprised that the 25XF didn't handle it well. I ran one on my 84 CCP (222) and it performed very well. I would have guessed that the nose heavy XF would have tracked and performed very well also.... :ScrChin:
Oh well.
Good thoughts for sure. But I am thinking of doing some pods on each side of the motor. a set of flotation pods and then a small 6'' bracket or jackplate. Have either of yall done the pods or seen how they work on the 170's? They would be likened to the fish boxes you could get on them but larger and filled with foam on the bottom with a hatch on the top of them.
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I have a 6" Bob's machine manual jack plate on my 170. Came that way when I bought it. I would not recommend mounting the motor any further back than that. If I don't have my trim set right she will porpois some. One thing I like about it is that it gets the rigging out of the back of the boat just enough to free up the aft cockpit area.
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I have a 6" Bob's machine manual jack plate on my 170. Came that way when I bought it. I would not recommend mounting the motor any further back than that. If I don't have my trim set right she will porpois some. One thing I like about it is that it gets the rigging out of the back of the boat just enough to free up the aft cockpit area.
Thats exactly the reason i was wanting to do these mods! Thanks Wingtime. My end state is freeing up the space for fishing and having everything have its place. i know it can be done. The flotation pods I think will help offset the bracket at rest and give a bit more stability without sacrificing the center of gravity too bad. if it dont work out like im thinking then I will have to mount some trimtabs on the pods
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I have a 6" jackplate on my 170 and since I have hydraulic steering I set it back 2 more inches. I too have a porpoising problem unless the speed and trim are just right. I haven't filled the main tank yet nor had anyone in the front of the boat yet to see if the extra weight helps with this.
These babies are COG sensitive.
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I have a 6" jackplate on my 170 and since I have hydraulic steering I set it back 2 more inches. I too have a porpoising problem unless the speed and trim are just right. I haven't filled the main tank yet nor had anyone in the front of the boat yet to see if the extra weight helps with this.
These babies are COG sensitive.
How well does yours sit at rest and coming off plane rick?
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My end state is freeing up the space for fishing and having everything have its place.
I understand the premise of using the foam filled pods to offset the addition of a bracket or jackplate. In theory it could work. But only by using some mathematical rocket science equation, using the additional length and weight of the pods, along with how much flotation you get by using X amount of foam.....you see where I'm going. You'd have to start with knowing where the hull COG is located. This in itself will be incredibly difficult. Then you'd have to know the change in COG distance aft the addition of the bracket/jackplate has caused. Then you'd have to know how much foam added to the pods gives X amount of floatation, which in turn will offset the COG X amount forward.
Personally I'd stay away from installing a bracket on a 170. Primarily because, why? You'd have trouble finding a transom mounted bracket 6" or less anyway. But why install one? Jack plate, yeah this would be a helpful addition if you're one who consistently runs through shallow water. Otherwise, at moderate speed and appropriate trim your boat will run through 1 foot of water. Believe me, I've done it.
And I'm not trying to be the buzz kill here with your idea of adding pods, this is just my opinion. Believe me, I'd love to see you do it because I'd love to learn the outcome lol. But I think you're setting yourself up for a lot of labor and expense for what will most likely not work out as you intend. So you gotta ask yourself, what's the reason I want to add pods and a bracket/jackplate? From reading your words I've quoted above, you just want to free up space aft of the console. Well what do you currently have back there that is taking up space? Cause you're considering adding weight on the transom to a boat that already sits ass heavy, just to free up space aft of console, with either a bracket or jackplate. Then add flotation pods to offset the aft weight. Boy o boy.
I've added a few pics of my 170. You can see with the 1st pic there is nothing aft of console that could interfere with whatever. The 2nd picture is the leaning post I added (note where it's secured to deck, in relation to how forward from transom, using fuel panel as guide). The 3rd picture is the removable 13 gallon baitwell that I keep in the boat most of the year. Even when it's in the boat I still have plenty of room to move about behind leaning post. If you don't have as much room as I've described having in on my boat, it's possible your console is secured to deck too far aft.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_8874_copy.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16247&title=img-8874-copy&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_8870_copy.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16246&title=img-8870-copy&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/Baitwell.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=15274&title=baitwell&cat=500)
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I have a 6" jackplate on my 170 and since I have hydraulic steering I set it back 2 more inches. I too have a porpoising problem unless the speed and trim are just right. I haven't filled the main tank yet nor had anyone in the front of the boat yet to see if the extra weight helps with this.
These babies are COG sensitive.
How well does yours sit at rest and coming off plane rick?
Unfortunately I haven't gotten pics of this yet but it seems to to sit fine, scuppers let in water when I walk to the aft though. I don't see any problems coming off plane. Engine still has less than 2 hours on it.
I've sidetracked myself by buying an old RV that I've dove into to get camping ready - I'll come up for air pretty soon though.
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mine sits just like any other 170 does. Supper balls help when two people are back there. I wouldn't want any more weight back there. Back when I was replacing my steering I thought about going with hydraulic but like Rick I would have had to move the motor back two inches so I decided to go with the NFB system.
Adding pods may help the flotation but since your adding running surface it may cause strange handing issues.
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Since fairly complicated work, like the addition of pods, is being considered & since we are talking about other ideas for possible modifications, I’ll throw in an option that I am considering making to a 19’ project boat that is sitting in my yard right now.
I’m thinking about making a bracket that has 2 live bait wells built into it on the sides, below the water line & also has a dry storage space in the center, between the wells, also below the water line. The dry storage area would be buoyant and would help to offset the rear movement of the motor weight. The bottom of the bracket would taper up from the existing hull bottom. If you wanted to amplify the buoyant effect, you could make 2 dry storage areas & put a small live well in the center or get rid of the live well all together. This modification would effectively turn the existing transom into a bulkhead & extend the total length of the boat a bit.
The boat in my driveway has a very soft deck that will be ripped up 100%. Since I need to get into it that far anyway, I’m thinking of also adding a long narrow fish box or two, below deck on the outside of the stringers. This would be for things like Wahoo, big Mahi & King Mackerel that just don’t fit in the original fish box up front.
Calculating the new CG after adding a bracket or other modification, could be done using a torque equation. For purposes of estimation, the original CG is usually around the place where the lines on the side of the boat make a Z shape. You would need to do a boat lift to find the actual exact spot.
To do a torque equation, you start by knowing the distance from the bow to the CG & the total weight of the boat. You multiply those numbers together & get a result. You then measure from the bow of the boat to the place where the new weight will be added & multiply that distance by the amount of the new weight. You then add that result to the original result & divide by the total weight of the original boat + the new weight, to get the new CG distance from the bow. Since you would be removing the weight of the original motor from it’s original position, you would do a similar multiplication & sub tract the effect of the original motor in the original position before adding in the effect of the new motor in the new position.
Calculating the center of buoyancy requires comparing the CG to the center of displacement. That adds 2 more similar steps to the calculations.
This kind of modification involves a lot of work & at this point, I would consider looking for a larger boat as another viable option, but if you are looking for a project, this could be a serious one.
My little 17 has the factory installed bait wells on the transom. One option that I have would be to seal up the holes in the live wells & turn them into additional flotation. The things is, those bait wells work so well that I have become fond of them & I’m now more likely to copy them on a future boat rather than sacrifice them on this boat, as I originally thought I would. The bait wells do make the boat slide a little in high speed turns on flat water. That is my only real complaint with them.
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Jim you have given me a few new ideas. I was thinking of doing a full pod all the way across at one time. I may just extend the boat off the rear of the transom. With my fabrication and machining background I belive I can lay it out and keep the lines the same. just would have to finish my shop for sure on that one. I may hold off on the pods or extension for now, finish my x17 bass boat and then move to this one, unless I can find a 22-2 or something around that size for cheap as I found this one.
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I’m thinking about making a bracket that has 2 live bait wells built into it on the sides, below the water line & also has a dry storage space in the center, between the wells, also below the water line. The dry storage area would be buoyant and would help to offset the rear movement of the motor weight. The bottom of the bracket would taper up from the existing hull bottom.
The boat in my driveway has a very soft deck that will be ripped up 100%. Since I need to get into it that far anyway, I’m thinking of also adding a long narrow fish box or two, below deck on the outside of the stringers. This would be for things like Wahoo, big Mahi & King Mackerel that just don’t fit in the original fish box up front.
Compared with other 170 forum members, I've got one of the heaviest engines installed on a 170. Yamaha '98 115hp (376lb dry). I also have an above deck removable 13 gallon baitwell, located port stern. When I've got a full tank of fuel and the baitwell full of bait and water, I usually never need to trim up the engine after planing. This is because the stern is so heavy it raises the bow. Any more than 3/4 throttle and I'm porpoising. My point is, these classic 170's are very very very sensitive to weight in the rear. If you do a search here for members 170's that have added a bracket, or a jackplate with 6" or more setback, you'll discover most if not all have porpoising issues.
I'm just spitballing here, so bear with me. This is all in good fun. If your talking about adding a bracket, which will weight X amount. Adding 2 bait wells, which weigh X amount. Along with setting the engine back X distance. So not only are you adding weight to stern, but you're also setting the engine weight back. The addition of flotation pods won't make a difference unless your talking about molding one seamless box onto the transom, from keel up to notch, beam to beam, and following the 12º dead rise, thereby making 17' more like 20'-22'. Once you're up on plane, if these pods aren't a flush running surface extension of the boat, then the flotation they provide will be zero...because they'll be out of the water. IMO, save yourself a ton of headache and possible heartbreak–if it doesn't work out–and get yourself a 22-2.
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I’m thinking about making a bracket that has 2 live bait wells built into it on the sides, below the water line & also has a dry storage space in the center, between the wells, also below the water line. The dry storage area would be buoyant and would help to offset the rear movement of the motor weight. The bottom of the bracket would taper up from the existing hull bottom.
The boat in my driveway has a very soft deck that will be ripped up 100%. Since I need to get into it that far anyway, I’m thinking of also adding a long narrow fish box or two, below deck on the outside of the stringers. This would be for things like Wahoo, big Mahi & King Mackerel that just don’t fit in the original fish box up front.
Compared with other 170 forum members, I've got one of the heaviest engines installed on a 170. Yamaha '98 115hp (376lb dry). I also have an above deck removable 13 gallon baitwell, located port stern. When I've got a full tank of fuel and the baitwell full of bait and water, I usually never need to trim up the engine after planing. This is because the stern is so heavy it raises the bow. Any more than 3/4 throttle and I'm porpoising. My point is, these classic 170's are very very very sensitive to weight in the rear. If you do a search here for members 170's that have added a bracket, or a jackplate with 6" or more setback, you'll discover most if not all have porpoising issues.
I'm just spitballing here, so bear with me. This is all in good fun. If your talking about adding a bracket, which will weight X amount. Adding 2 bait wells, which weigh X amount. Along with setting the engine back X distance. So not only are you adding weight to stern, but you're also setting the engine weight back. The addition of flotation pods won't make a difference unless your talking about molding one seamless box onto the transom, from keel up to notch, beam to beam, and following the 12º dead rise, thereby making 17' more like 20'-22'. Once you're up on plane, if these pods aren't a flush running surface extension of the boat, then the flotation they provide will be zero...because they'll be out of the water. IMO, save yourself a ton of headache and possible heartbreak–if it doesn't work out–and get yourself a 22-2.
I am thinking of adding to the back. Following the lines, keel and deadrise of the hull. If I could get my hands on a 22-2 that was not a basket case without engine for cheep I would have one sitting in my yard lol. I'm not talking of doing this right away but it is a plan.
I am just getting ideas and feedback for right now. I think I've read every build thread and question on these 170's lol
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I’m thinking about making a bracket that has 2 live bait wells built into it on the sides, below the water line & also has a dry storage space in the center, between the wells, also below the water line. The dry storage area would be buoyant and would help to offset the rear movement of the motor weight. The bottom of the bracket would taper up from the existing hull bottom.
The boat in my driveway has a very soft deck that will be ripped up 100%. Since I need to get into it that far anyway, I’m thinking of also adding a long narrow fish box or two, below deck on the outside of the stringers. This would be for things like Wahoo, big Mahi & King Mackerel that just don’t fit in the original fish box up front.
Compared with other 170 forum members, I've got one of the heaviest engines installed on a 170. Yamaha '98 115hp (376lb dry). I also have an above deck removable 13 gallon baitwell, located port stern. When I've got a full tank of fuel and the baitwell full of bait and water, I usually never need to trim up the engine after planing. This is because the stern is so heavy it raises the bow. Any more than 3/4 throttle and I'm porpoising. My point is, these classic 170's are very very very sensitive to weight in the rear. If you do a search here for members 170's that have added a bracket, or a jackplate with 6" or more setback, you'll discover most if not all have porpoising issues.
I'm just spitballing here, so bear with me. This is all in good fun. If your talking about adding a bracket, which will weight X amount. Adding 2 bait wells, which weigh X amount. Along with setting the engine back X distance. So not only are you adding weight to stern, but you're also setting the engine weight back. The addition of flotation pods won't make a difference unless your talking about molding one seamless box onto the transom, from keel up to notch, beam to beam, and following the 12º dead rise, thereby making 17' more like 20'-22'. Once you're up on plane, if these pods aren't a flush running surface extension of the boat, then the flotation they provide will be zero...because they'll be out of the water. IMO, save yourself a ton of headache and possible heartbreak–if it doesn't work out–and get yourself a 22-2.
I am thinking of adding to the back. Following the lines, keel and deadrise of the hull. If I could get my hands on a 22-2 that was not a basket case without engine for cheep I would have one sitting in my yard lol. I'm not talking of doing this right away but it is a plan.
I am just getting ideas and feedback for right now. I think I've read every build thread and question on these 170's lol
Get after it man. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just think it's a ton of labor for an addition that may or may not work out as you intend. But speaking of adding to the back, a '68 170 recently listed on craigslist with transom modification's I've yet to see. Completely rebuilt boat, beautiful. Its transom is enclosed, bracket with 90hp Johnson, trim tabs, 30 gal livewell aft of console. I became so curious to learn how the hull performed with the enclosure and a big livewell that I emailed the seller. He was kind enough to reply, says it handles great, trim tabs really playing a large role with keeping bow from porpoising. Here's a few pics and the CL link if you want to see more.
https://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/d/aquasport-17-custom-fishing/6278050280.html
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/00w0w_8kRvQS3IzdB_1200x900.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16284&title=00w0w-8krvqs3izdb-1200x900&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/00f0f_icHo8UyFNG_1200x900.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16283&title=00f0f-icho8uyfng-1200x900&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/00F0F_jJkyhZe0B2A_1200x900.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16282&title=00f0f-jjkyhze0b2a-1200x900&cat=500)
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If I could get my hands on a 22-2 that was not a basket case without engine for cheep I would have one sitting in my yard lol.
Dunno what is cheap for you, but this 22-2 has been for sale in my area for months. Stopped at the dealer lot and took a lot. Beautiful. Just needs an engine/controls.
https://www.smartmarineguide.com/L51183807
This one's in NC, but worth the distance. It's underpowered but hull looks in great shape. Rock bottom price.
https://www.smartmarineguide.com/L50206416
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Well been cussing at the motor again lol. I can not leave things well enough alone. I had the issues with idle not being just perfect so I got a manual and went step by step on a link and sync. Timed the motor using the Joe Reeves method, made a homemade open air spark tester to fire on all four cyl. Got the idle and running perfect. Fished with a friend a few weeks ago and ran into some mud flats on the river. So when I got home i flushed and flushed the motor to be sure nothing was left in. So last week me and the wife went fishing. Running up the river at WOT pushing 5100-5200 RPM and the high temp alarm goes off, Cut speed let idle and in about 2 seconds it went off. I tied up to a tree branch, pulled the cover and felt the heads. Didnt feel hot. Cranked up let idle and never got too hot to touch. So I ran the motorat various RPm's. here is the issue. At WOT high heat alarm instantly. can run all day at 4000 rpm with no issues. So I said the hell with it and ordered a set of head gaskets, thermostats, poppet valves, springs, water diverters and an impeller. Put all that on the motor.
I idled the motor in the driveway with the muffs on it to get some heat in the heads and re-torqued. Me and the wife went back down to the river and ran the motor, same results.
So today I pulled compression readings and got these readings. 1-117 2-111 3-120 and 4-103. When i had the heads off I sanded and retrued the block and heads, cleaned everything, inspected for cracks etc. I figured I would test the motor with the thermostats bypassed and when I did I noticed some bubbles coming out the test hose. Pulled the plugs on that head and yep water on the plug. its on #4 plug too. the one with the lowest compression. So I pulled the head again to check everything and put another gasket on, this time with the copper head gasket spray, and rtv high temp on the bolt heads.
I ran the motor and still have water on the #4 and bubbles in the bypass hose. Havent ran it at the river to see if i get high temps at wide open throttle.
So all this was because I wanted to boat to run perfectly on our opening day of shrimping season. Its going to be the grandsons first season and if it be me having to bolt this motor up and go ruin it shrimping the one day for him to be there ill do it in a heart beat, but if I can figure out what is wrong with it before then, ill fix it.
What a day right lol
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My end state is freeing up the space for fishing and having everything have its place.
I understand the premise of using the foam filled pods to offset the addition of a bracket or jackplate. In theory it could work. But only by using some mathematical rocket science equation, using the additional length and weight of the pods, along with how much flotation you get by using X amount of foam.....you see where I'm going. You'd have to start with knowing where the hull COG is located. This in itself will be incredibly difficult. Then you'd have to know the change in COG distance aft the addition of the bracket/jackplate has caused. Then you'd have to know how much foam added to the pods gives X amount of floatation, which in turn will offset the COG X amount forward.
Personally I'd stay away from installing a bracket on a 170. Primarily because, why? You'd have trouble finding a transom mounted bracket 6" or less anyway. But why install one? Jack plate, yeah this would be a helpful addition if you're one who consistently runs through shallow water. Otherwise, at moderate speed and appropriate trim your boat will run through 1 foot of water. Believe me, I've done it.
And I'm not trying to be the buzz kill here with your idea of adding pods, this is just my opinion. Believe me, I'd love to see you do it because I'd love to learn the outcome lol. But I think you're setting yourself up for a lot of labor and expense for what will most likely not work out as you intend. So you gotta ask yourself, what's the reason I want to add pods and a bracket/jackplate? From reading your words I've quoted above, you just want to free up space aft of the console. Well what do you currently have back there that is taking up space? Cause you're considering adding weight on the transom to a boat that already sits ass heavy, just to free up space aft of console, with either a bracket or jackplate. Then add flotation pods to offset the aft weight. Boy o boy.
I've added a few pics of my 170. You can see with the 1st pic there is nothing aft of console that could interfere with whatever. The 2nd picture is the leaning post I added (note where it's secured to deck, in relation to how forward from transom, using fuel panel as guide). The 3rd picture is the removable 13 gallon baitwell that I keep in the boat most of the year. Even when it's in the boat I still have plenty of room to move about behind leaning post. If you don't have as much room as I've described having in on my boat, it's possible your console is secured to deck too far aft.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_8874_copy.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16247&title=img-8874-copy&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_8870_copy.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16246&title=img-8870-copy&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/Baitwell.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=15274&title=baitwell&cat=500)
What's the setup of the 13 gallon removable livewell? Does it use the single thru hull pickup, or did you have to add an additional? I'm thinking one of these might fit really nicely on my 175 just fore of the engine, and I have a raw water washdown hose and thru hull that never get used.
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What's the setup of the 13 gallon removable livewell? Does it use the single thru hull pickup, or did you have to add an additional? I'm thinking one of these might fit really nicely on my 175 just fore of the engine, and I have a raw water washdown hose and thru hull that never get used.
No thru hull anything. I have a transom mounted (permanent) livewell pump bracket. The pump outlet I permanently secured tubing, while the other end of tubing is free to come on and off of livewell inlet. When I want to use the livewell, I slide the pump into its bracket and attach the hose to the livewell inlet. The black corrugated tubing you see in the picture is the livewell outlet over the transom. I cut in pos/neg pigtail connectors so when I want to completely remove the livewell setup I just unplug these pigtails. I stick the pump/tubing into the empty livewell and remove from boat.
To secure the livewell to the deck will depend on if your livewell already has threaded holes in the livewell to accept tie downs. Hopefully you have one that does because you can't drill into these poly tanks. They don't hold a screw and don't interact with adhesives (not even 5200). Luckily my livewell had 2 SS threaded holes. One near the bottom and one near the top. I used a combination of 2 wood threaded eye screws screwed into the deck, 1 small SS clip, and 1 SS turnbuckle, and 2 blunt SS eye screws that thread into the livewell. The SS clip secures 1 livewell eye to the deck eye. The turnbuckle hooks in the other deck eye.
The pump I use is 500gph Rule Transom Mount like this:
http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/Livewell_Pumps-Rule_Transom_Mount_Aerator_Pumps.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6sXyor-U1gIV01mGCh1x8gTHEAQYAyABEgJLQvD_BwE
Turnbuckle like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/The-Hillman-Group-5-16-18-in-x-8-7-8-in-Zinc-Plated-Hook-and-Hook-Turnbuckle-5-Pack-321922/203810235
Screw eye like this:
http://www.midlandhardware.com/809632.html?dfw_tracker=14396-809632&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImqCx8cKU1gIVUVuGCh2HbAYcEAQYAiABEgIqnPD_BwE
Let me know if you need more details. Pretty simple setup that works well for the fishing I do.