Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Electrical => Topic started by: daniel123 on August 16, 2016, 04:45:58 PM
-
I have a new Humminbird Digital three-stage on-board charger and it's attached directly, one to a deep-cycle and another to a starting battery aboard my Osprey. The third stage is not hooked to a battery as this point and is capped off. The batteries are connected to the boat's electrical system via a common Rule three-way battery selector switch, which is wired to give me the option of using Battery 1 (starting) or Battery 2 (deep cycle) or Both batteries when needed by switching the Both, or no batteries when switched to Off, to save accidental discharge.
I leave the switch in the Off position while the boat is stored on the trailer, often for weeks or months at a time, but still have to plug in the charger to recharge the batteries once a month or so to bring them from an average of 25% back up to 100% charge. I believe the only direct wire connection that isn't going through the selector switch is from the starting battery to the auto bilge pump switch, so that it works automatically when the boat is at a dock even with the bilge pump dash switch off and the battery selector in the Off position.
I can see how that may drain that one battery when it rains and the pump cycles on and off to discharge rainwater collecting in the bilge. But why would both batteries drop to as low as 25% charge when they are connected to the switch when it is in the Off position and there is no apparent drain on them?
-
Flooded lead/acid batteries?
How old?
-
Sorry, Bob. I thought I was signed up for alerts whenever I got a reply to my posts and didn't see this until I logged back on just now. Flooded lead acid, two and three years old.
-
I'm sure Capt Bob will chime with the appropriate documentation but your batteries are like me, old. Three years is my general rule of thumb for replacing batteries. Do they last longer, yes, but it sounds to me like yours are on the way out. I have been known to be wrong.
-
Perhaps you are right, and we have a family vacation trip coming up this Xmas when we use the boat to get to and from our destination (North Captiva Island, FL) as well as using it to fish daily for the week, so new batteries probably make sense regardless. Is there a consensus on what type of batteries to replace them with these days? I use the deep cycle primarily for a 12 volt, 55-lb-thrust bow-mount motor that doesn't see extended use and as a back-up for starting the 1999 115 Johnson Two Stroke that can take some cranking when it hasn't been started in a while. Perhaps I should replace the pair with two deep-cycles, since new batteries available today have the capability to handle both starting and deep-cycle duties? And I'm interested to learn what CAS members recommend with regard to lead acid, gel or AGM batteries in such applications. Thanks in advance for any input.
-
I've had great success with AGM batteries. I find the link below to be informative.
http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0406MarineApplicationslayout.pdf
-
My reason for asking was explained by Keith. They are on a downside for this type battery with the style use they get. When placed in a vehicle (say a car) that gets daily (or several times weekly) use, and has a sound charging system, they are maintained fairly well. They rather enjoy this life and like some humans that take care of themselves, they are rewarded with a little longer life. Most boaters don't maintain their batteries in that manner and so the flooded type don't seem to have an extended life.
I started using Gel types in 1998. They have good and bad characteristics (like a lot of us). They don't seem to supply the same cranking power per group size as the flooded/AGM and they can be picky about how they are charged. Still, mine have lasted many years but......
Replacement costs are absurd and since I'm running a primitive charging system on my old Yammy, I replaced one (yes I still run one gel) with an AGM. The thought is (when the time comes) to replace the other gel with an AGM too. I also up-sized from a Group 27 to 31 (fits in the same size battery box but heavier) and love the extra bump in cranking amps. I won't go into the differences (BA's link is your source) but the AGMs seem to give you the best of both the old school (not too picky about older outboard charging systems) with the extended intervals in charging maintenance when your boat sits. The manufacturers appear to have worked out the bugs early models had and the costs are palatable. I would suggest you take a good look at the AGM type for replacement. Deals are happening more often than not so shop around.
Good luck. :thumright:
-
Menard's has the Exide Marine Group 24M AGM (FP AGM24DP) on sale for $150 right now -- less another 11% through Saturday. The cheapest I found them on Amazon was $225 and they are highly rated by what I learned on line. They are Group 24s, which the Deka chart shows is the "Best Fit," but I'm thinking Group 27s (31s?) might be better? I'm going to buy two of whatever I get so that I start out with two equal cells. Thoughts?
-
If you are a member of Sams Club check them out. I just bought a 27 agm starting for I think $80 with a 12 month warranty. It used to be that Sams carried a few different batts, now they have a ton of them, at least in the one I shop. Lots of golf cart batts.
-
As for the type, well you need to know how you use your batteries.
I'm old old school in that I use one (hopefully) battery per trip, then switching to the other on the next trip so both of mine are dual purpose/deep cycle types. This was common practice years ago when sophisticated electronics consisted of a VHF and a flasher for depth recording. While I realize I'm in a minority who still use this method, it continues to work for me. Electronics today are very hi-tech and tend to not like spikes (or under voltage) to their systems so you might think of additional ways to protect yourself since you mentioned a new device on your boat.
My older stuff seems to work fine the way I have it wired but that might not be the best thing moving forward.
Good luck. :thumright:
-
I'll check out Sam's Club, as I have a friend who is a member. Meanwhile, are 27 series that different/better than the 24 series my outboard is rated for?
-
are 27 series that different/better than the 24 series my outboard is rated for?
From a construction standpoint material wise no but...
27s are a little bigger and use a different tray/box to mount. They do weigh more and will often (but not always) have an increase in cranking power and reserve. Again, you need to compare the two to make the best decision. You may find a higher grade 24 that exceeds a lesser grade 27 in that respect.
I always ran 24s in my 17 with a 115 Johnson and never had problems but as I stated earlier, not a bunch of electronics. I switched to 27s when I up-sized to a CCP with a 200 Evinrude and ran 27s on my 200 Yam. I went to a 31 (which is heavier still) because the price was right and I gained extra cranking power and more reserve than my old gel (yet fit in the 27 box). Nowadays a little extra reserve power with all the electronics you may want to run (including pumps)and additional cranking juice, if the price is right, is the way to go.
You know best how you run your boat so base your choice on that factor, not so much on "bigger is better".
Good luck. :thumright:
-
Thanks, Bob. I may go straight to a pair of group 31 AGMs and use them both for starting and deep cycle use, alternating their use via the battery selector switch. Does that sound like a good plan? I run a 12 volt 55-lb thrust MinnKota on the bow, but not much, and have never drained the single group 24 flooded cell deep cycle I have been using to power it. I figure a Group 31 deep cycle AGM will be an improvement in that regard. The only issue is if I start to use the bow-mount more, and I decide to use a second Group 31 wired to double the 12 volt deep cycle power and whether it will fit under the Opsrey's console with the other two 31s. The only other issue I have is that I have read that AGMs may not recharge to full strength if allowed to drain to less than 50% charge, which will likely happen in my case since I'm only using one. Is that an issue?
-
OK,
As stated before, I've experienced no noticeable problems running my boat in this manner. My electronics (sounder, GPS and VHF) have suffered no problems. Newer electronics might not be as forgiving, I just don't know.
Group 31s will be heavier. Remember that when hauling them around.
I have found that AGMs will recharge at percents less than 50. The key is the right battery charger. My current AGM was accidentally left on for several weeks and was drained down to less than 4 volts IIRC. I tried recharging with the multi-stage charger I had used for years but with no luck. The charging algorithms in that older charger couldn't sense the lower voltage and failed to initiate a charging sequence. I bought a new charger that does and it (AGM) came right back to life. Baring a mistake like that or the possibility of it happening say with a stuck bilge pump float, I think you'll find that they hold a charge much longer than even a new flooded type battery. I began charging both my gel and AGM batteries last Friday. Both had been fully charged in May and both showed 75% remaining when I began. They have not had any additional use, other than starting the motor on the muffs twice. and running for a short period of time. No, I don't get out much any more.
That stated, I would not worry about the batteries dropping below 50% charge. Regular maintenance with a good smart charger will prevent that and you'll be fine. They are very forgiving in my experience.
-
Thanks for the advice, Bob. I just installed a new MinnKota MK-330 Digital 3 bank/10 amp on-board charger that offers an AGM charging option. I assume that has the capability to bring back AGMs that have been deeply discharged. That would be the only charger I'd use to maintain the batteries, other than the charging system on my 1999 Johnson 115 Two Stroke. Any issues with the latter working to charge an AGM? And when I put the Rule battery selector on "Both" while running, it should re-charge both batteries while underway, correct?
-
There is actually a procedure to bring one back, especially with the right charger. CB can explain.
-
The key is, as it is with any type battery, not to allow it to fully discharge. Proper maintenance will always extend the life of any flooded, gel or AGM, internal malfunction aside. So... with the correct charger, you can do this very easily. The hitch is the discipline to hook it up and plug it in on a regular basis. If you can do that, you will be surprised at how long a battery will last.
Although Yamaha does not recommend any type but flooded, both the gel and AGM have worked (for a long time) in my boat. While the gel type is said to be sensitive to overcharging, the AGMs are more like the flooded in that they tolerate the varying voltages found in older outboard systems so I think your older system will be fine for that purpose.
The old trick was to hook a fully charged battery to a "dead" AGM and then place the charger on that battery. The thought being to "fool" the charger. Forget that. While I can't speak for your charger, I can for mine. I spoke with the manufacturer before purchasing to confirm that the charging algorithms would work with a deeply discharged battery and the answer was yes so I paid a fair amount for it. It's portable (not wired into the boat) and I have used it for all my vehicles, boat, car, truck, lawnmower and motorcycle. Point being, a good all round device for my charging needs.
As to having the battery switch in the "both" position for charging, I guess there is some benefit to that but....
I like to isolate the batteries so there is a reduced chance that a defect in one could bring down the other. You would be better off served by adding this device to your system.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A
This gives you the ability to isolate the starting voltage spike from your electronics, allow the charging of both (without the need to switch) and still allows (when used with the switch shown at the bottom of the link) the use of both batteries for emergency starting. I've considered it numerous times but I'm too cheap. Since you're upgrading your system's power, you may wish to consider this option as well. Several members have this and seem very pleased with the results.
Good luck. :thumright:
-
I think I've read somewhere (maybe the Optima instructions?) that if you connect a good battery in parallel with the dead one the charger will charge both and once the "dead" battery reaches 11.5 or so volts to pull the paralleled battery off and let the charger continue to charge the "dead" one.
Doesn't work?
-
I think I've read somewhere (maybe the Optima instructions?) that if you connect a good battery in parallel with the dead one the charger will charge both and once the "dead" battery reaches 11.5 or so volts to pull the paralleled battery off and let the charger continue to charge the "dead" one.
Doesn't work?
I'm sure it does but for me ....I just ended up with two dead batteries so.... I bought the Optima charger.
It brought back both. Watch the handle. Mine finally broke off. Resting the hood of my truck on it while charging probably accelerated this failure. :ScrChin:
-
I'll look into that isolator. It is added in addition to the battery selector, not a replacement for a traditional selector switch, correct? My on-board MK 330 digital charger has three banks and two banks are directly wired to each of the two batteries for post-trip re-charging, and hopefully I won't have to worry about parallel wiring/fooling that charger. My question is while underway will my outboard's charging system automatically charge both batteries when the battery selector switch is switched to BOTH or ALL. BTW: as usual, the info you guys are sharing is really helpful.
-
I have the ACR on my boat and I love. No more battery management to worry about. Just turn it on and go. I accidentally left my battery switch on for a while. My stereo drained the house battery down flat. But my starting battery was fully charged and unaffected. So that was a good test for the system if I ran things flat while out fishing or something I'd still have juice to start the motor.
-
Doesn't the battery selector switch do that selecting for you, in terms of which battery(s) are isolated and which are 'connected' and therefore susceptible to accidental discharging? Wouldn't the same thing have happened (with or without an ACR) if you had the selector switched to only that battery powering the stereo, and it ran down? That would still have left you with the fully charged battery on the other bank to switch to, which is the purpose of a selector switch? Just as the stereo would have depleted them all in the event you had left the selector switch on ALL or BOTH.
I'm still seeking an answer to my related question about whether or not the engine's charging system will charge both/all batteries when the battery selector switch is in the ALL or BOTH position. I assume it will only charge Battery 1 or Battery 2 when the selector is left in one of those positions. Can anyone chime in on that?
-
Doesn't the battery selector switch do that selecting for you, in terms of which battery(s) are isolated and which are 'connected' and therefore susceptible to accidental discharging?
Yes
Wouldn't the same thing have happened (with or without an ACR) if you had the selector switched to only that battery powering the stereo, and it ran down?
Yes
That would still have left you with the fully charged battery on the other bank to switch to, which is the purpose of a selector switch?
Yes
Just as the stereo would have depleted them all in the event you had left the selector switch on ALL or BOTH.
Yes
I'm still seeking an answer to my related question about whether or not the engine's charging system will charge both/all batteries when the battery selector switch is in the ALL or BOTH position. I assume it will only charge Battery 1 or Battery 2 when the selector is left in one of those positions. Can anyone chime in on that?
Yes to charging "1" and "2".
Possibly yes and possibly no to the "Both" position.
PY: If both batteries are relatively equal in their discharged state, they may share the charge equally though without a good rate of charge monitoring system, how would you know?
PN: Your switch and an outboard charging system are not highly sophisticated devices that recognize the difference and funnel the proper charging voltage to each battery so with your charging system just dumping voltage to one "large" battery, as mentioned above, you really can't tell. I would be especially nervous if one battery were fully charged and the other so discharged as not to have energy to crank the motor.
If you're going old school then my advice is stay old school.
Combo batteries (good build quality/high capacity).
Start on #1 and stay there all day with the second in reserve.
Next time out, switch to #2 and repeat.
Maintain batteries properly while on shore.
I would make no attempt at charging both underway by using the "Both" position (though I have no doubt some do). I would only use that position for emergency starting only.
Look, it all boils down to how you use your boat. This method above works great for me. I have no reason to change but everyone has different needs. Knowing this, you can then wire your system to properly accommodate that usage. Lastly, no matter what make or model year engine you have, count only on the charging system to keep a battery that is in excellent condition/state of charge that way, while underway. Don't rely on it to bring back the dead.
That only appears to have worked for The Almighty and Dr. Frankenstein and not real well for the latter. :ScrChin:
Good luck. :thumright:
-
That sounds like good, sensible advice, Bob, and I thank you for offering it. Based on that I'm going to purchase two new identical size 31 dual purpose AGM batteries and via my battery switch will rotate their power use between starting and trolling motor duties as described.
That said, I'll have to select and wire one to power the lights, VHF, livewell, etc. and always switch to that one when I need those accessories, right? Any advice on that front?
What might the advantages be to installing an ACR with such a rotating battery set-up that is already rigged to a selector switch?
-
I didn't get any responses to my last posted question, but now there's another twist: I'm replacing my 12-volt 55 lb thrust Riptide bow-mount on the 200 Osprey with a 24-volt Ulterra Riptide with 80 lbs of thrust. That means I'll need two batteries for the motor alone, and a starting battery. Space is tight under that Osprey steering console; can I get by with a 24 size AGM for the starting battery and two 27 or 31 AGMs for the bow-mount?
That also will mean I have to pay more attention to the two battery banks, since one is actually 24 volts and the other 12, when operating the boat and the idea of starting and running out on one and starting and running back on the other to allow the engine to offer a re-charge, as suggested when I was going to have two identical 31 AGMs aboard and rotating their duties with the Battery Selector switch. Any advice or suggestions?
-
I didn't get any responses to my last posted question, but now there's another twist: I'm replacing my 12-volt 55 lb thrust Riptide bow-mount on the 200 Osprey with a 24-volt Ulterra Riptide with 80 lbs of thrust. That means I'll need two batteries for the motor alone, and a starting battery. Space is tight under that Osprey steering console; can I get by with a 24 size AGM for the starting battery and two 27 or 31 AGMs for the bow-mount?
That's what I am going to do - 24 starting and 2-27 or 31 for the TM.
That also will mean I have to pay more attention to the two battery banks, since one is actually 24 volts and the other 12, when operating the boat and the idea of starting and running out on one and starting and running back on the other to allow the engine to offer a re-charge, as suggested when I was going to have two identical 31 AGMs aboard and rotating their duties with the Battery Selector switch. Any advice or suggestions?
An ACR is great for 2 batteries and keeps them isolated from each other even while charging - it doesn't allow one low battery from draining a charged battery.
For my setup I will leave the starting battery on the engine. I will not worry about the TM batteries until I get home. Then I'll get either connect a 3 bank charger or a single and a dual to charge them up, haven't decided yet.
-
Thanks for chiming in, Rick. I've got a three-bank charger in the helm console already, and will also count on it to do most of the charging for the trolling battery bank. Whether I go with a pair of 27 or 31 AGMs for that 24-volt bank is a matter of space under that Osprey helm, which is tight. I have thought about putting those two batteries up under the bow somewhere, but that would extend the charger wiring and eliminates them as a back-up for starting? What's the advantage of an ACR in our instance (assuming you also have a battery selector switch)? I'm already pushing my envelope keeping up with the wiring/switching as it is!
-
I planned space for 3x31s under my console seat. I bought a 24 for the starting bank but can always step up to the larger size. Haven't bought the TM or the TM bank yet.
I don't think an ACR will work well with two different banks of different voltages. In a general sense, an ACR works by sensing the difference in voltage between two banks while there is a voltage present, i.e. the engine running. If you have a house and a starting bank and start the engine, the charging starts on the starting bank, the ACR compares the voltage on both banks and if the house is lower than the starting bank, the ACR allows charging current to get through to the house bank.
Check out Blue Seas' site and see what they offer for what you're trying to do.
I had a 12v TM for years before the rebuild and agree that a 12v TM just doesn't cut it, at least on my 170. It's only good when no breeze or current.
-
That's a good point and advice. I'll check with Blue Seas. Does it make sense to have an ACR for just the starting battery?
Are dual purpose AGM's ok for both starting and deep cycle use? I've got a buddy who says not...
-
Check the cranking AMPS. I think you will find the AGMS generally have a lower cranking amps.. Also they will not recover as quickly from a sudden high amp draw like a starting battery will.
-
Will do. How about using an ACR for just one (starting) battery? Does that eliminate half it's benefits, determining the levels between two batteries for charging purposes, and simply use its other function that allows it to keep surges from affecting my electronics?
-
I'm not sure what your asking... An ACR is only useful with two batteries. It won't help with surges or voltage drops without a separate house battery.
-
i switched to AGMs when I repowered my 22-2CCP. Very positive results - I can run the TM all day on the AGMs with no problem. A guide friend of mine just recently put me on to Cabela's pure lead batts - 4 year replacement warranty! No pro-rating - 4 years direct replacement. He fishes every day and goes through batteries pretty quickly - he says no question at Cabelas - they just swapped them after 3 years of use with new ones at no charge.
So I would suggest you go with Cabelas Pure Lead AGM in the 27 size. On sale now for $299. Yes, that's a lot for a battery, but think about the 4 year warranty and the fact that these high-quality AGMs usually last 3 times as long as flooded lead... http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/includes/variants_popup.jsp?productId=1435369&categoryIds=104794380|104698080|104446080&mainWindow=mainWindow1477515939152