Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Engines & engine woes => Topic started by: flounderpounder225 on January 04, 2015, 04:42:33 PM
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2003 250 HPDI, History, bottom port side plug (#6 if I am correct) was fouling every few months, engine didn't like to idle on the hose, I suppose because with 2 Cylinders Already shut off at idle, a third not acting right made the engine die while trying to flush. WOT was ok, no surging or missing, but not getting my normal 5500-5600 rpm. Went through the secondary ignition, measured all the boots, and a few were at the top of the 4-6 ohm range so replaced them. Also noticed the #6 wire where it screws into the boot looked corroded inside, so I replaced that coil pack/wire, all new plugs and the engine screams, however; pulled #6 plug yesterday, after running for a while on the hose, the center porcelain on the electrode was wet with fuel oil mix, the other 5 plugs were dry and white/tan normal. Pulled compression on all cylinders and all were at 125 +\- a pound or two. So, I am thinking I may have an injector issue? I think the injector is firing, or the engine would not run as well as it does, but I think the injector may be leaking under pressure and constantly dripping fuel into the cylinder? Am I chasing the right dog here?
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Marc, you should have a schraeder valve on the fuel rail, get a fuel pressure tester and do a leak down test. See if you are losing rest pressure...
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I'll look at that Bob, but not sure if that is something you can do on an hpdi, not like our cars with that valve, my pressures at the final end are upwards of 800 pr 900 psi. The only schrader valve I know of is on the VST can, and that is medium pressure, 60ish I think.
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Marc, those would be operating pressures. No way is the system at that level going to maintain a rest pressure of 800 or higher. Find out what the rest pressure is on the fuel rail, the FSM should give the specs...
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Can't help with your question, but based on the age of the motor pulling the injectors and having them cleaned is a good idea. Although I was not experiencing problems I did mine and replaced the reeds as well, noticeable difference in performance and fuel consumption.
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Was curious Marc what the injector type was because it seems to not be closing all the way. I got this from a good THT post about HPDI filters.
Conclusion would be that either stray current is keeping it open, not sure how that could be possible because they are charged open with critical timing, or there is a micro booger in the seat. Either way it means "fun with injectors".
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/688/image222.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11095&title=hpdi-injector&cat=688)
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good pic, I am thinking just hanging open a little, Brucato In NC sounds like the place to go for repair on these, they have a very good rep on several forums, and they say the can adjust the injector? I guess the pintle valve is adjustable looking at the picture.. Thanks
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Can only guess here Marc based on previous life and experience with diesel injectors and those have all kinds of tweets that can be done. Depending on the actual injector type you can change nozzles, tips and seats and bore diameter of the injector guts to get more gas where you want it..
But all can get carbon in the nozzles and that in turn can work its way up into the seat and low load/low fuel pressure.
Good luck!
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Fuel Pressure at VST key on should be 45ish, when pump stops may bleed back down. Running pressure at VST will stay the same, High pressure depending on model is 750+- or 1200+-. The only way to measure high pressure is with a laptop.
It sounds like a leaking injector. If you send one out, send all of them out.
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I'm going to buy the interface cable from Andy at SIM Yamaha, he said he would send me the software to install on my laptop, then send him the disc back. Also, new LP pumps, and he has a fuel pressure test kit with adapters that will be good for the VST pressure. He explained a injector leak down procedure using the laptop. So this weekend I think I will begin looking at getting the injectors out? Just wondering if I could cycle the suspected injector for a second or two while shooting some sea foam through it, then pull the plugs and wind mill the engine to get the residual out, if there was something clogging the seat of the valve in the injector it might clear it?
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I worry about the tolerances.. Diesel injectors were tight, like .00001".. If the HPDI injector is the same way, be sure to use a cleaner that does not clean "dry", you want a film left behind so the guts have no chance of going metal to metal. Best case is you win and she cleans up.. Worst case is you end up with it busted more then it is now and you out the +/- $70 for a new injector.
If you do windmill with everything connected you are going to have a super explosive mist coming out of that nozzle so EXTREME care must be exercised. The though of that gives me the heebeegeebees.. And I like things that go boom...
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how about $300 +/- per injector?? :c029:
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how about $300 +/- per injector?? :c029:
Ah yes, Yam is VERY proud of their parts...
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You can get them cleaned for $50 or less per injector. They put new filter cans in them at the time. http://www.mrinjector.us/ There was an Injector Doctor or some name like that on the East coast, NC or somewhere, and ProMarine in Bradenton cleans them also.
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$300??
Holy SCHIZNIT!!! I hopped onto ebay and got the number there.. For $300 I'd be tryin to clean them too!!
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Outfit in NC called Brucato gets top reviews on all the boating forums, then there is Flagship marine in S. Florida also highly recommended, most are about $25 per injector for clean, flow test, and adjust volume and pattern to within 2-4% of each other, that's the number their looking for. I think if the weather permits I may try and remove them this weekend, its been cold as heck last 2 days, 21 the other morning on my way to work
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$300 each - WOW - Did these come out of a Diesel - pricing is the same it seems :-(
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Did these come out of a Diesel
Are you dissin' my tow vehicle?
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(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af122/flounderpounder225/imagejpg4_zps50067fe7.jpg) (http://s1000.photobucket.com/user/flounderpounder225/media/imagejpg4_zps50067fe7.jpg.html)
Trying to post pictures... I thought the new site would be better.. OMG maybe because of my IPad this is painful. This was the start, after the coil packs and rear covers were removed. Next pictures as I kept removing, remove the Allen head machine bolts holding the fuel pipes to the fuel rails, remove the bolts holding the fuel rail to the head and the wiring, the fuel rail just pops off the end of the injectors which have a large o ring using two pry bars with equal pressure top and bottom slowly the rail just pops off. Then remove the injector keepers which are held in with one bolt each. Then there is a small slot to insert a flat blade screwdriver and the injector should simply slide out.
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(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af122/flounderpounder225/imagejpg3_zps22648b96.jpg) (http://s1000.photobucket.com/user/flounderpounder225/media/imagejpg3_zps22648b96.jpg.html)
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af122/flounderpounder225/imagejpg2_zpse18f55e2.jpg) (http://s1000.photobucket.com/user/flounderpounder225/media/imagejpg2_zpse18f55e2.jpg.html)
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af122/flounderpounder225/imagejpg1_zpsa2770ccb.jpg) (http://s1000.photobucket.com/user/flounderpounder225/media/imagejpg1_zpsa2770ccb.jpg.html)
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What did the tip look like?
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Trying to post pictures... I thought the new site would be better.. OMG maybe because of my IPad this is painful.
It is painful because the iPad comes up as a mobile device - I am working that still. Anyway - we found out that we needed to change the properties on a folder on the server so hopefully we won't see a timeout anymore for the "upload folder". Hey, this how we make the site more solid.
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I'm there Rick, I was just a little frustrated as we all get sometimes. Worked all day on the motor, worn out.. and wanted to post up some step by step stuff, and just kept hitting a wall. I know you do everything you can to make CAS the best it can be, and I appreciate it. Thanks!!
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I'm quite sure you are already aware, but always like to point out, please be sure to use new O-rings on the injectors for the fuel rail, and the injector seats. I've seen too many times people try to skimp on them, and put it all together only to have it leak on them.
You can use a little Di-electric silicone to lube the O-rings. Its injector/sensor, and rubber safe, and makes installing them a bit easier.
Nice pics! Good luck on the final result.
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The tips were all about the same condition, looked pretty good, no carbon build up pretty clean actually. I am going with the fuelinjectorman in Punta Gorda Dale Goble.. talked with him for a while this morning on the phone, he gets good reviews on the forums, and seemed to be very knowledgeable, $18 per injector with new micro filters installed and the O-Ring on the fuel rail end. I ordered the 2 per injector compression washers for the tip end from Andy at SIM Yamaha along with the new LP Pumps, diagnostic cable and Fuel Pressure Tester kit, man is Yamaha proud of their O-rings and washers.. those fiber washers on the tip end are $8 each, and it takes 12 for all the injectors, more for some washers than to service the injectors, but they are way too important to skimp that step, and I was just happy the injectors came out as easily as they did.
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Marc,
See if you can borrow a tube of Parker O-Lube from some of the aviation mechanics on the base. That stuff is like gorilla snot, but man does that stuff do wonders for O-rings. That is what I used when working on my plane... or anything with a O-ring. Makes installing O-rings a breeze.
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Yeah, I have a myriad of stuff in my shop, this one stuff which I think will work well is an aircraft and instrument grease Christo-Lube MCG114, its an inert grease we use in our LOX and Cryogenic equipment, or I was even thinking just put a little of my synthetic 2-stroke oil on the O-Rings when re-assembling?
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http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/uploads/6406/20150110_111801.jpg
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(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af122/flounderpounder225/Mobile%20Uploads/20150117_145209_zps4894caf7.jpg) (http://s1000.photobucket.com/user/flounderpounder225/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150117_145209_zps4894caf7.jpg.html)
Need some advice here, all injectors now cleaned and flowed 100% spot on, new coil pack, engine running at 5600 rpm no hesitation, but this #6 cylinder is the same one that was fowling the plug prior to all this, and I thought the injector was to blame. The engine does idle better and seems smoother but after a few high speed runs up the bayou back at the house this is what the plug looked like, compared to all the others, lefts hand plug #6 right hand looks like all the others, could this be a reed valve issue. I know the injectors are right.
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What if you change that coil pack to another cylinder and see if the problem follows? Do you have a six wire spark gap tester?
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No Bruce, I don't have a 6 wire spark gap tester, but I am going to go get a good spark gap tester and make sure #6 is actually firing. Then move on from there, I just can't believe it's not firing the plug and the injector is NOT working correctly if I am making 5600 rpm? My reasoning toward a reed is this; IF the injector is working correctly, AND the plug is firing correctly then we are down to an incorrect fuel/air ratio mixture, and the only thing that controls the air into the combustion chamber is the reed valve right? More later, I received my YDS cable and software from SIM yamaha so I am going to read up on that this morning, and connect the laptop to the engine and do a little learning. Maybe that will reveal a secret of what is going on? Thanks
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Well something not right between the laptop and the ECM, kept getting a COMM error, so I checked the spark with my new spark gap tester, all good. Proceeded to remove the intake box, to take a look at the reeds hopefully through the throttle bodies, guess Blue Agave nailed it in an earlier post when he spoke of the reed valves, managed to get a decent photo shot down the throat of the #6 throttle plate.. What do you all think? :c029:
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af122/flounderpounder225/Mobile%20Uploads/20150118_144935_zps27c1d0d9.jpg) (http://s1000.photobucket.com/user/flounderpounder225/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150118_144935_zps27c1d0d9.jpg.html)
Here's the strange but good part, compression on 6 is the same as all other cylinders, so if the engine ingested this piece, could it have exited the exhaust port? Everything I have read, says an ingested stock steel reed will destroy the cylinder
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When I was researching changing my reeds I recall reading about an instance where someone had ingested a stainless reed and did not suffer any damage. So it does appear to be feisable that this could have happened to you. I would suggest you give Chris Carson Marine a call and talk to Mr. Carson and get his thoughts on the issue you are experiencing.
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Exactly what my plan was this morning, since today is a holiday I plan on doing some digging into this. Chris gets great reviews on THT also. Thanks
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perhaps it didn't make it to the cylinder// if you can put a scope in the cylinder ,, throw the sparkplug or injector ,,you could look for damage or scoring // I work on these a lot so I would just pull the heads and look //
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I have to chime in about Chris Carson.... He is TOP NOTCH. He rebuilt a powerhead for me in the past and he really knows his stuff. He also is happy to give advice on the phone, especially about reeds. If I were you Marc I'd give him a call.
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http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11302&title=image260&cat=500
I still can't figure this picture thing out, but here is a link to my gallery, this is the piece of reed, never got ingested, just sitting in the plenum!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/image260.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11302&title=image260&cat=500)
Amazing. I am going to scope the cylinder, and yes Bruce, spoke with Chris Carson this morning, he is mailing me a set of reeds tomorrow! Hopefully this will totally wake this motor up
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11300&title=image257&cat=500
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/image257.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11300&title=image257&cat=500)
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never got ingested, just sitting in the plenum! Amazing.....
.......Hopefully this will totally wake this motor up
That's great that you recovered the missing reed! It appears a lotto ticket may be in order. The new reeds are going to make your motor purr. I noticed a greater throttle response and have also noticed increased fuel efficiency.
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You were very close Marc. I edited the post above to add the "Linked Image" code. After you get the images into your gallery you click on the image you want to post and it will appear in a slide type display. Look to the right and you'll see two boxes with code in them. Select and copy the code in the "Linked Image" box. This is the same code you select when you use PhotoBucket. Are you using the iPad to do this? If so, I think touching and holding for a sec brings up some options.
I hope I got the pix in the correct order above.
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Thanks Rick, I'll persevere through it, I'll check the link codes, wasn't feeling too hot but wanted to post the pics. Yeah, I can't wait to see how this thing runs, no telling how long it has been like this.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/image259.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11301&title=image259&cat=500)
I did it Rick!
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:bravo_2:
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Man that's a stroke of luck! My Merc 200 had a loose reed screw that luckily was trapped in the bottom of the plenum. A new reed block and fiberglass reeds REALLY improved the idle and throttle response. I can also confirm Fernando's motor idles and runs MUCH better with the new Carson Reeds.
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If anyone wants the yamaha YDS Diagnostic software, the users manual I have it all and it is residing at Dropbox.com. Pm me with your email, and in can "share" this whole folder with, you can download it and even burn it to a DVD. If you have an HPDI, OR 4 stroke, this would be valuable. You need the interface cable, but you can get one various places.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20150125_130431_resized.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11380&title=20150125-130431-resized&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20150125_124823_resized.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11376&title=20150125-124823-resized&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20150125_124851_resized.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11378&title=20150125-124851-resized&cat=500)
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Could anyone that has an HPDI possibly take a clear picture of the Throttle Position Sensor, looking in the middle of the TPS bracket and showing how the orientation of the little “lever” in there engages the shaft coupling? On reassemble mine came apart, I lost the little lever, I have the lever on order and should get it tomorrow, just need a good image of how it all hooks together. After the reed valve assembly the motor did not want to run right BC my TPS was way out of whack. Thanks
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Good to see you got the reeds all assembled, sucks about the TPS. Do you not have the service manual? Have you tried an Internet search for the manual? You may be able to download the manual in PDF form.
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Andy from SIM sent me the whole procedure for setting the TPS, just need to get it put back together correctly and get it set. Thanks
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Hopefully this is the conclusion of this issue. Finally got to take the boat out for a few short runs in In the Bayou yesterday. After getting the TPS installed correctly and getting the voltage set, this is incredible! I feel that this reed valve must have been broken for a very long time, possibly since I have owned the motor. Yesterday's run produced an easy 300 rpm increase at WOT, and reduced my GPH burn by 2 to 2.5 GPH at 30 MPH. I actually had to back the throttle off because it was easily hitting 5800-5900 with my big 15 x 15 inertia prop. Before if I broke 40 mph it was with a light load, smooth water, and fresh plugs trimmed up to the point just before prop blow out. Now, 41 is not even WOT. I have my old yamaha prop from my last boat, which was repitched to about 16.5 from 17.5 , I am going to try it and see what happens, I can definitely stand more pitch now. Chris Carson reeds are the bomb, I will be calling him tomorrow to report my results, he wanted to know how it worked. Knowing this hpdi drops 2 at idle it never sounded smooth at idle, now it is so much quitter and smooth at idle and the throttle response is very crisp. I think based on how easy this was to replace the reeds, anyone should consider this change for performance and fuel efficiency..
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Like a new motor, right?
:singing:
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:13: absolutely
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Sweet Marc!! Didn't read back in case you mentioned it, but how much did those reed vlaves run?
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$125 plus Tax and ship, I think $147 to the house. What an amazing difference.
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Good to know! You think that a swap from stock to Chris's reeds will be an improvement even if everything seems ok? Just wondering, the OX66 is running fine but any performance increase with an economy boost, especially at that price is worth doing!
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Good to know! You think that a swap from stock to Chris's reeds will be an improvement even if everything seems ok? Just wondering, the OX66 is running fine but any performance increase with an economy boost, especially at that price is worth doing!
I would say "Yes". Based on your signature I assume your motor is 15 years old. I was not experiencing any problems with my motor, 2002 EFI Merc, but figured that cleaning the injectors was a good idea. The Merc is a bit different than the yammi and to remove the injectors the plenium needs to be removed, while I was in there decided to change the reeds as well as I already had the plenium off. Very happy I made the decision to change the reeds.
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Good to know! You think that a swap from stock to Chris's reeds will be an improvement even if everything seems ok? Just wondering, the OX66 is running fine but any performance increase with an economy boost, especially at that price is worth doing!
Based on the ease of installation, and the performance increase I realized.. Heck yes, the throttle response and idle smoothness is instantly noticed. Is the OX-66 direct injected or throttle body injection? Never paid attention to the difference of HPDI to OX-66
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I was having idling issues as well on a 2003 Yamaha 150 HPDI. Replaced filters $$, changed out the low pressure fuel pumps, 3 sets of plugs and them found this thread. Inspected my reed valves and low and behold, the bottom 2 were broken. Thanks for posting this thread or I would have never found the problem. Here are some pics of my reed valves:
https://goo.gl/photos/DgUDog7CoaVMaT9R7
I am going to try to borrow a bore scope to search for the missing pieces since I still have good compression. I am hoping that they are sitting in the crank area. I I don't see the pieces, I will take a head off to see if the piston is damaged or scored.
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Well, I couldn't see much but ended up crushing the bore scope lense/light in the cylinder from the spark plug hole. Must of got wedged in one of the ports while hand turning the engine. Not good. I tried to vacuum it out but nothing came out. Was told if it ate a stainless steel part that a little plastic won't matter. Think I will order new reeds and hope for the best at this point. Does anyone know if I can reuse the intake gaskets or do I need new ones?
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Ordered new gaskets. I am have decided to reuse the old intake and reed valve assembly off my spare engine.
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The gaskets arrive tomorrow. Does anyone know the torque for the intake and reed assembly?