Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Controls, Steering, and Trim Tabs => Topic started by: SaltH2OHokie on August 12, 2014, 11:44:46 AM
-
Pulled tower of power off of 19-6, put jackplate (Bob's 4" setback...actually measures 5.25" to my eye) and 130 Yamaha V4 on. Went to bolt Baystar cylinder on and realized that we had a physics problem. It was trying to occupy the same space as my transom (notch isn't wide enough). This previously wouldn't have been a problem, but I had both sides of the "notch" raised when my transom was rebuilt, solving the problem of taking waves over the stern, creating the problem I'm currently up against.
My options as I see them:
Get transom cut/glassed/painted to accommodate new setup. Don't like this one from a time, cost and hassle standpoint.
Remove jackplate. Don't like this one because...dangit, I want my jackplate...
Add fixed setback brackets to jackplate to get steering cylinder behind the transom. Don't like this one because of the added stress on transom and jackplate.
Anyone have any opinions on which way to go?
-
Ry, is it possible to shorten the length of the jackplate? We're running Bob's 2.5 inch setback manual jackplates, everything fit right up.
-
Ryan, I'm having a little trouble visualizing this...unless you are talking about interference when the JP is all the way down and you're tilting all the way up. In fact Teleflex puts a caution note in the manual stating to observe for interference when a JP is installed, particularly the case I just described, which is easily fixed by raising the JP up a bit before tilting all the way up.
Care to post a pic?
-
So it sounds like you hit the magic dimension, since it is a front mounted cylinder designed to clear the transom inside the boat; the jack plate has now brought the engine back enough to where the cylinder hits the transom "wings". This is not a hydraulic jack plate but a manual adjustable version correct? Quite frankly, you're waisting money with a jackplate on that hull /engine combo. You'll have no appreciable gain in performance anyway. The boat just isn't fast enough to need it. Take the jackplate off and mount the engine normally at the optimun height. End of problem.
-
Bear with me typing on cellphone with fat fingers, but yes, Farley hit the nail on the head description wise...I uploaded two pictures, but I'm not finding the mobile version of the links I normally use from gallery to post them.
Hydraulic plate, which I like because in its previous life on a past boat between plate and motor trim, I could idle places that were knee-high to a grass hopper, then drop it back down and plane when the time and depth came...
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... 185925.jpg (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/IMG_20140812_185925.jpg)
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... 185902.jpg (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/IMG_20140812_185902.jpg)
130 came off a 19 pro line in okay shape... if anyone's hunting for an early 90's 190 pro line, drop me a line :)
-
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/IMG_20140812_185925.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/IMG_20140812_185902.jpg)
-
Bummerski...
-
Bob, I agree. I was pretty bummed when I realized my issue Sunday after de-rigging the Pro-line and re-rigging the Aquasport, I had more than a few minutes invested in the venture...and not to say it was all in vain, hydraulic steering will be nice, with or without the jack plate, and the 130 Yammie seems nice from my running it on the Pro-line.
Scott, thanks for making those links into pictures. That's not actually bolted to the tiller arm, but illustrates the point...
I'm leaning fixed setback bracket on jackplate. From a friend of a friend who runs go-fast boats, apparently its pretty common in those circles to stack jackplates or stack a setback bracket and then a jackplate. He said he'd not seen setback bracket mounted to jackplate...only the other way around (setback on transom, jackplate on that). If I do it that way I have to pull 1/2" bolts out of "life-sealed" holes in my transom for the 4th or 5th time now since owning this boat. I'd like to avoid that if possible, so I'd prefer to mount setback to jackplate. To me 4" or 6" of setback bolted to 4" or 6" of setback is tomato tomato...only if I were running 80-100mph with that jackplate raised vertically 6-8" would I figure the order of things really mattered. Running 35-40 with it 2" up shouldn't make a hill of beans difference to my semi-uneducated way of thinking.
-
to my semi-uneducated way of thinking
Don't sell yourself short. You remind me of...well...me. Name and all! :thumright:
Not to restate the obvious, but you definitely have to find a way to: 1) change the dimensions or alignment of the steering cylinder (highly unlikely), 2) cut back the recently refinished fiberglass transom (highly unpreferable) 3) move the engine back to the actual transom so the steering components have full clearance inside the hull to steer and tilt, or 4) move it outboard enough to clear the outside of your new transom. Nothing fundamentally wrong with moving it further outboard as you're planning/thinking except that the basic principles of leverage apply...the further outboard you go, the more torque on your hydraulic adjustment system and the screws that mount everything to your transom. VERY curious what the final solution will be. :scratch: Any chance the cowling (at tilt) would bind with your new transom wings if you get it far enough outboard to clear all the steering related components?
FYI - your general thought processes and execution impress me. I might be biased though. 8)
-
I say you get rid of that nasty jack plate and hydro steering set up as they dont fit your boat. Since I always try to help, I will take those off your hands so you no longer have the headache to deal with it :mrgreen:
They will fit just have to find the right combo to make it work. Do you fish in some skinny waters up there?
-
Ryan...thanks I think...but if I end up spending a bunch of money trying to fix a problem that I've created by trying to build a better mousetrap, only to end up back at square 1, but poorer...then I'm sorry for sullying the name.
Kevin: I'll counter with an offer to send the old hydraulic lines from the jackplate along with the cable and helm/rack I pulled off of the boat. Call it a consolation prize :mrgreen: Yes...always played around in the shallows (hence the 10yr old jackplate), but now that we've moved up here to the Eastern Shore, we've been spending more time in water <4' deep that we have in anything. Lots of little creeks within mudflats where the tide cuts a path in and out...problem is, not enough water clarity to see where the 6" sections are vs the 4' sections right beside them. Wife has gotten great at feeling me nudge onto a shoal at idle and hopping over the side to push us off without me even having to say anything.
Regardless, I typically yell "LAAAAAAND HOOOOOEEEE!!!!" every time. Feels appropriate.
I think I'm going to order a Bob's static setback bracket to move the cylinder further back. Now I'm waffling between 4" and 6". According to my tape, 4" will do it and leave a little play...6" will do it and hopefully leave plenty of play, but at the expense of 2" more of a lever arm. Also resigned myself to pulling the plate off of the transom and yet again resealing the holes when I mount the setback brackets to the transom.
Anyone see any huge issues beyond Farley's 100% correct assessment that I'm pissing money away? For the record sir, Gabby wholeheartedly agrees with you.
-
Based on what I'm seeing in the photos, and presuming you proceed with your plan to push the entire assembly another few inches aft to clear the transom, will you have enough clearance between the engine's steering arm w/undermounted hydraulic cylinder attached and the top of the frame of the jackplate when the engine is fully tilted and locked? Just asking b/c it looks close. I've never run a jackplate or hydraulic steering so my question is merely curiosity based. :?:
I also reiterate my prior question...any chance the wider 4 cyl Yamaha engine cowling (at tilt and hard over) would bind with your new transom wings if you get it far enough outboard to clear all the steering related components? It'll need quite a bit more clearance than the tower it replaced. Would hate to see you put everything together, tilt the engine, and then lay the steering over only to put a nice fat crack or hole in the side of the cowling b/c it smacks right into your newly fabricated transom. :shock:
-
Good thinking/excellent points Ryan :thumright:
Reckon that was Farl's concern...where you'll end up, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. And get it....they ran deluxe straight out of the box.
But...the 19-6 hull is forgiving. We were on Nando's 19-6 with Armstrong bracket a few weeks back. 22 inch setback, she ran like a champ. Actually ran more like a 21+... overall running length made a difference, especially in a chop.
Get her lined up as you think, and go with it. From what I've seen on the 19-6....aft weight/balance shouldn't be a concern.
-
Bob's Machine says they wouldn't do it...can't recommend it...won't warranty it...etc. Said they have 2" solid spacers, but if they won't get it back far enough, that's all the "stacking" of components that they could advise.
I'm still thinking I'd be well within the engineering limits of 1/2" fasteners and whatever thickness Al we're talking about on the plate/brackets...but their negative endorsement coupled with my wife's tepid attitude toward spending more money to "maybe" solve a problem has steered me toward nixing the jackplate, for the moment, on the 19-6.
Thanks for talking me through it :thumright:
As for whether the motor fits in the notch...darn if I don't hope so, but if it doesn't, I just won't tilt it up that far. I can trailer it to the ramp right by the house with the motor all the way down (zero tilt/trim), so it honestly shouldn't be a concern very often. Would be nice if it came all the way up in case I needed to clear a fouled prop while on the water, but I've done that on inboards plenty of times...which proves it's possible in-situ if necessary. Slightly less pleasant, but possible.
-
Hopefully the Yammie will fit fine, and even if doesn't fit the transom cut-out as you've described....not that big a deal to do a little slicing/tweaking on either side. Your glass guy does good work, maybe he'll do a little follow-up adjustment if necessary for a minimal charge.
Main thing...and its always a concern...be able to lift it up, all the way up. Growth on the LU. Wrapped prop. Oyster bar hard aground, falling tide. Being towed.
Many scenario's...but everyone, let's not forget..... Murphy's Law rules on the water.
-
Ryan, getting the motor further aft will do the trick in regards to allowing the cylinder to clear...but you probably won't be able to tilt all the way up (as I stated earlier) with the JP all the way down. Raise it an 1" and you'll be fine...
-
Bob's Machine Shop's only recourse they could offer was a bigger setback jackplate or they offer various spacers from like 5/8" to 2"...said if one of those would make the clearance, then I was in business. I didn't think 2" would do it, so I wrote off the idea and settled on dropping the plate off the boat for the moment.
Went out of town for my best friend's wedding, and after being out of town from Thursday night until 5:30pm tonight, I'd cleared my head enough over the past few days :drunken: :drunken: to convince myself it was worth a shot, so when I got home I grabbed some scrap wood and made 2" spacers, got the wife to help me unbolt the motor from the jackplate, slid the spacers in, grabbed longer bolts and bolted her down.
The good news: Looks like my steering cylinder will clear with 2" more setback.
The so-so news: Looks like I'm going to have to rotate or otherwise offset one of the two fittings on the cylinder to get the hydraulic hose pointed in the correct direction to avoid interference with the transom at full lock. Manual said "call us if you need to rotate fittings on cylinder" or some such warning, but they appear to just be pipe thread fittings, so I'll give em a call tomorrow and see what the story is.
The bad news: The threaded hole in the tiller arm doesn't want to take a bolt. I wouldn't even say I'm cross-threading it...can't even get a full turn on it before I feel like I'm getting turned way off axis. Stopped trying before I messed anything up too terribly bad.
Should I attempt to squeeze the appropriate tap up there and chase the threads? Cable helm was previously theaded into the forward hole...I'm correct that the hydraulic cylinder bolts to the aft hole on the tiller arm, yes?
-
To answer one concern, pulled to motor for the 8th time, chased the threads in the tiller arm with a 3/8 fine thread tap bolted up cylinder, and ran out of daylight....
Two inch spacers arrived, so aside from the inevitable missing nut/ bolt / electrical connector, I should have everything to finish the Merc to Yamaha conversion with jack plate and hydraulic steering added in for additional expense and frustration. Problem being I'm working 7 days a week at the moment.
I say again, SeaBob I'm envious... stuff ain't as easy as it looks, least not to do it correctly.
-
Ryan, Did you ever get this to work with the spacers? I'm considering upgrading the steering on my 170 to a Baystar sytem but since i have a 5" manual jack plate I'm in the same boat as you. I think a 1" spacer may help me.
Thanks
-
Good question Wing, I acquired a CMC 6" jackplate because my sole ended up being where the lower bolts would normally go (DOH!!) so the jackplate solves this by mounting it lower and then jacking it up, but maybe not from what Ryan ran into. I will have to measure and see what I have to deal with.
-
Here are a few pics of my current install with the 5" Bob's Machine manual jackplate:
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j196/wingtime/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0394_zpsgfarcxil.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/wingtime/media/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0394_zpsgfarcxil.jpg.html)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j196/wingtime/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0393_zpsgzkdlokt.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/wingtime/media/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0393_zpsgzkdlokt.jpg.html)
In this pic you can see where the steering arm has damaged the top inside of the transom when the motor is tilted all the way up:
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j196/wingtime/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0402_zpsacme0gdn.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/wingtime/media/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0402_zpsacme0gdn.jpg.html)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j196/wingtime/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0396_zpscjlrl7pd.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/wingtime/media/1987%20Aquasport%20170/KIMG0396_zpscjlrl7pd.jpg.html)
-
Here's an update: I have a seastar hydraulic steering on the 170 and I measured today and it needs 7-7 1/4" of setback for a jackplate. I have 5 1/2" :03:
So it looks like I need to buy a 2" setback also. Glad to find this out now instead of when I mount the engine. Thanks Bruce for reviving this thread :thumright: