Classic AquaSport
General Aquasport Forums => Electronics => Topic started by: SaltH2OHokie on June 02, 2014, 08:17:53 AM
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Looking at a 7-8" screen for the 19-6, would ideally like some form of downvision/sidevision/x-ray vision, have zero interest in Garmin, and want the budget to remain around $1,000 (few hundred either way won't kill me).
Playing with the displays I'm drawn to the Raymarine products. Like the Dragonfly 7" and the A78 and am leaning toward the A78, but have honestly never owned anything Raymarine with the exception of an old radar unit, so I don't know how their stuff compares. The previous 2 boats that I've put any electronics on I've gotten Furuno because I was headed offshore and most of the big boys use their sonar units offshore. Don't see myself venturing very deep with the 19-6, so I figure I might aim for something a little different.
Thoughts?
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Ryan, Bruce will most likely chime in lauding the Lowrance HDS7 touch that he has, but don't overlook the Humminbird 899ci, we did quite a few for LEO agencies, it's been said Lowrance did a little "copying" of Humminbird's technology in regards to their structure scan. Raymarine? Honestly, I'd stay away, as their CS/tech support in my opinion is chit, there also seem to be too many issues with voltage, and getting that corrected with software updates.
This is, of course, JMHO...
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I have been very happy with my hds units. The hds touch is amazing. Lowrance has a rebate on the 7" units right now. If you don't plan on networking another unit then take a look at the new Elite 7" touch.
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I only have one friend with any Lowrance CS experience, and he wasn't impressed there...so it seems I'm in a lose-lose on that one.
Any experience with the Genesis function (making a bottom map?)
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I can tell you the structure map function is really cool. You can drive around an area and the structure scan will overlay on the map giving you a very clear picture of what is on the bottom. I also like it when I motor past someone anchored up and I can see what they are anchored on top of.
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Looking at a 7-8" screen for the 19-6, would ideally like some form of downvision/sidevision/x-ray vision, have zero interest in Garmin, and want the budget to remain around $1,000 (few hundred either way won't kill me).
Playing with the displays I'm drawn to the Raymarine products. Like the Dragonfly 7" and the A78 and am leaning toward the A78, but have honestly never owned anything Raymarine with the exception of an old radar unit, so I don't know how their stuff compares. The previous 2 boats that I've put any electronics on I've gotten Furuno because I was headed offshore and most of the big boys use their sonar units offshore. Don't see myself venturing very deep with the 19-6, so I figure I might aim for something a little different.
Thoughts?
What's wrong with Garmin? (Gulp) after just having bought one.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with Garmin.. I own 3 and on my second one as my main unit as I upgraded from a 546s to a 740s. Some of the other units (Lowrance, Hummingbird, etc) have and are still are ahead of Garmin as far as sonar and imaging goes but Garmin is catching up. Most will say that Garmin has a great reputation in the industry and they are known for ease of use and they lead in GPS mapping/functions. I can tell you that the couple times that I have had to call their support line (to get technical assistance) I never have had a problem speaking to a live person to get help and they always are very friendly and helpful. I guess it really boils down to what features are valuable to you as there are always trade-offs.
Case in point.. I was at Worst in St. Pete over the weekend and I always stop by to window shop at the new electronics. I was talking to a guy looking at the Ray Marine Dragon Fly unit. As I was playing with it the sonar looked cool and prob. is and the price was decent but it was a real pain in the ass to use. That knob that controls the screen and buttons you have to push really is not ergonomic. Maybe not a big deal at the store but being able to move through the screens quickly out on the water with one eye on the unit and another on the water is essential whether you are trying to navigate unfamiliar areas or mark and exact waypoint while underway moving at 30 mph.
Contrast-my Garmin 740s touch screen has no external buttons (except power) and I can move through the menus very quickly when needed which is a feature that I like. Even during rough conditions the touch screen is simple to use. But I will the first to say that my Sonar (even with a B60) is not as detailed as the Dragon Fly or my friends Simrad. Again, that's one of the trade-offs that I accepted when I looked at each unit side by side.
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B - EXCELLENT feedback! :thumright:
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Just personally never been impressed with their stuff. I had a decrepit Furuno sounder that tracked bottom for miles after my buddy's brand new Garmin proclaimed it was too deep. This was circa 2004, so I'm sure they've all changed a ton over the years, but I never got over how much difference there was in my third hand Furuno and his fancy brand new Garmin.
Plus my perception has always been that Garmins niche was making things pretty and simple for the mass market, potentially at the expense of performance.
All purely personal (and very likely imagined) ideas.
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Its prob safe to say things have changed in 10 years for all manufacturers... I will say that I do agree in your assessment on Garmin's minimalist/simplification approach. However, for the sonar as an example, if you wanted to adjust the gain, zoom, depth lock or any of the other more complex functions the option is there and easy to access.
I would bet that close to 80% of MFD users probably never adjust any of those features and leave their unit on auto all the time.
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One of the problems with MFDs (multi-function displays) is that while they incorporate all 3 of the major functions (chartplotter/GPS, FF, and radar), none of the companies really shine in all 3 phases. Garmin is clearly the best when it comes to CP/GPS, Furuno stands out in FF capabilities, and Raymarine is pretty "up there" with the radar end of things. But throw all three functions into 1 unit, and there is going to be some performance issues in at least 1 of the 3 functions...
As far as Tech service is concerned, I deal on a pretty regular basis with all of them, Garmin, Lowrance, H-B, S-H, Raymarine, Furuno, Simrad. In my experiences talking with these guys on the phone, I have found that Lowrance, Garmin, and S-H rate highest in both knowledge and "friendliness". Furuno, excellent knowledge, not so great bedside manner. Simrad the same. H-B, so-so in both departments. Raymarine? Good knowledge, chitty attitude, like you are wasting THEIR time!
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One of the problems with MFDs (multi-function displays) is that while they incorporate all 3 of the major functions (chartplotter/GPS, FF, and radar), none of the companies really shine in all 3 phases. Garmin is clearly the best when it comes to CP/GPS, Furuno stands out in FF capabilities, and Raymarine is pretty "up there" with the radar end of things. But throw all three functions into 1 unit, and there is going to be some performance issues in at least 1 of the 3 functions...
As far as Tech service is concerned, I deal on a pretty regular basis with all of them, Garmin, Lowrance, H-B, S-H, Raymarine, Furuno, Simrad. In my experiences talking with these guys on the phone, I have found that Lowrance, Garmin, and S-H rate highest in both knowledge and "friendliness". Furuno, excellent knowledge, not so great bedside manner. Simrad the same. H-B, so-so in both departments. Raymarine? Good knowledge, chitty attitude, like you are wasting THEIR time!
Agreed on the MFD drawbacks. Had an older Garmin 10" MFD on the 290 used solely for CP and "main" display. Had a Furuno 582L for sounder and a S-H radio. Had an older Furuno GP(31?) GPS as a backup. Had them all talking to one another (with the exception of the Furuno GPS) and it was actually a perfectly workable solution for me.
Don't have the helm space on the 19-6 for such a hodge-podge.
As for customer service, I have little first hand experience with any. I would say that I find it funny that Simrad and Lowrance don't have the same folks answering both numbers...
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Its prob safe to say things have changed in 10 years for all manufacturers... I will say that I do agree in your assessment on Garmin's minimalist/simplification approach. However, for the sonar as an example, if you wanted to adjust the gain, zoom, depth lock or any of the other more complex functions the option is there and easy to access.
I would bet that close to 80% of MFD users probably never adjust any of those features and leave their unit on auto all the time.
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Friend's dad purchased a $100k + boat last year and asked my opinion on electronics manufacturer as he was going to outfit the boat with all new stuff. I voiced my same opinion as to Garmin (with the same caveats that it was truly an opinion, not a statement of any real "facts") and the statement you made above (bolded) was practically his exact response: "I'm never going to mess with that stuff".
He has more money in Garmin electronics on his boat now than what I sold my 290 for...and loves them.
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Coming from an aviation background my first aviation GPS was a Garmin. I was amazed at what it could do. Flying along and being able to keep my wingtip literally on the edge of airspace was really cool. I'll bet that must have drove controllers crazy back in the day. In the late 90's UPS (yes that UPS) designed some avionics for their own aircraft and decided to sell them. They were very high quality units. Garmin ended up buying that line from UPS and selling them under their name. They are VERY proud of it too! Enter affordable consumer GPS units for cars etc and Garmin took over that field. So Garmin is top notch when it comes to GPS and chart plotters.
Lowrance of course started out selling flasher sonar units. So as you can imagine their product line progressed into fish finders and sonar. So Lowrance has a bigger background in sonar than Garmin.
I had a Garmin 440 unit on my 200XF and it was a nice unit. But I always felt it was lacking a bit in sonar dept. Not bad but just not quite as good as other units.
I have a old Furuno color scope on the 245. Its a old CRT type unit. But man does that thing work great. I can spot fish on my Lowrance and look up and see the almost the same thing on the Furuno. Of course the Furuno has a thru hull ducer. I feel when it comes to sonar Furuno is top dog.
The HDS side scan with structure scan is a whole different ball game though. I can make out individual bait fish and that freaking thing.
So when it comes to consumer MFDs (Furnuo is not consumer if you ask me since you can't buy it in a store) I'd say Lowrance has the nest sonar. They have caught up with or even surpassed Garmin on the GPS side in the user interface dept. if you ask me. Garmin is a good choice but like it has been said they are a tad behind in the sonar dept.
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Well its nice to now I haven't bought a complete lemon. :oops:
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Not at all.. I am considering picking up another 740s so I can link them have one dedicated to charts and the other dedicated to Radar and/or Sonar. I am keeping an eye out for a nice used one.
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Buddy has a 740s on his cat and an HDS5 on his skiff. Claims he likes the HDS5 better, but he purchased the HDS5 later and always defends his latest and greatest purchase as being better than any previous ones (this truck is the BEST truck...until his next truck, which is then the BEST truck, etc.) so I have a hard time telling whether that's his real, honest opinion.
I always liked the 740s on his cat except that where he had it mounted made it sort of a pain to use sometimes, but can't fault the unit for that.
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Pretty much settled on the HDS7 touch, I think. Now just have to make sure that my comptroller/wife approves.
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Just a thought on the touch screens. The rep was at bass pro and I was talking to him about them. There may be issues with getting them to work right when they have water drops on them. I imagine the same problem I have with my droid when it rains and I need to text.
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I have a HDS7 Gen2 and a HDS7 Gen2 touch. The touch screen is really nice for the GPS side... just touch where you want to go on the chart. I didn't seem to have any trouble with the unit if there is any water on it. Not like my phone.
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Do you end up with fingerprints and smudges all over the screen? I tend to sweat quite a bit when the sun is hot and the wind isn't blowing so much. My fear with a touch screen is that I would be messing up the screen all the time.
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Craig, although different companies use different technologies in their touch screens (GSR, tactile, pressure, etc.), they all seem to work fine with a wet screen. But get used to fingerprints. Garmins, Simrads, Raymarines, Lowrances...they all have the fingerprint issue, particularly if you don't wash off real well after applying sunscreen...
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Long story...ended up buying a Simrad NSS7 Evo 2. Will report on thoughts (which for the money, they better be positive) once I get it and get it installed. Passed on a CHIRP x-ducer for the moment, but did get the LSS-2 for structure scan.
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Ryan, I've done an NSS-12 w/LSS-2 and CHIRP for a customer who deep drops in the stream (around 4,000'). There were certain features we had to "enable" in the system menu when first setting up the system (you'd figure they would already be enabled!) so spent some time on the phone with Simrad TS, but once all was up and running, my customer loves it! I actually like navigating through the screens better than most of the others...
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I have an EVO unit. It's great machine. The CHIRP feature is awesome....so awesome I bought another NSS8 and Sonarhub to run another CHIRP ducer....and I can now run CHIRP and the LSS at the same time.
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My budget was +/- $1,000. Overshot that as it stands, so unfortunately CHIRP 'ducer will have to wait...hopefully not long. Structure scan looks just like the screen shots Navico provides on the Lowrance/Simrad sites, right? :thumright:
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My budget was +/- $1,000. Overshot that as it stands, so unfortunately CHIRP 'ducer will have to wait...hopefully not long. Structure scan looks just like the screen shots Navico provides on the Lowrance/Simrad sites, right? :thumright:
Yeah, take your time. In the end it will be worth it. I would seriously consider saving the money for one of the B175 transducers. It is worth the money.
As for SS, it can provide same images. The best environment for good images is calm water 30-100' h2o, and 3-8 mph. Mess with any of those and your results will very. But you can still make out bait balls, and large structure with side scan. With down scan you can determine type of bait too. Well worth the money.
Install tip...dont worry about the transducer placement relative to each other. It is only for overlay of SS on regular Sonar page and it is worthless. More important is clean water and unobstructed view. This is a LONG transducer, the lower you can mount it the better as an outboard or outdrive will block the sound giving you a shadow.
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Long story...ended up buying a Simrad NSS7 Evo 2. Will report on thoughts (which for the money, they better be positive) once I get it and get it installed. Passed on a CHIRP x-ducer for the moment, but did get the LSS-2 for structure scan.
Any updates on the NSS7 Evo 2? My old Simrad NX40 just crapped out so now I'm researching new ones. The Evo 2 looks pretty nice.
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Long story...ended up buying a Simrad NSS7 Evo 2. Will report on thoughts (which for the money, they better be positive) once I get it and get it installed. Passed on a CHIRP x-ducer for the moment, but did get the LSS-2 for structure scan.
Any updates on the NSS7 Evo 2? My old Simrad NX40 just crapped out so now I'm researching new ones. The Evo 2 looks pretty nice.
Sorry...been busy, and currently using work aircard, so I'm a hair limited on my internet "playtime", but I'm really liking the Simrad. Can't say as I'm really stretching its legs as I'm in shallow water, no radar, no other NMEA 2000 devices, etc. Structure scan has been fun to mess with, but honestly have spent 99% of my time since installing it running in backwaters and shallows, so I haven't really used it on the shallow (30-60') wrecks that I have in mind.
I have to fiddle with my regular transducer mounting. At idle she's clean and clear, but on plane it's notchy/splotchy/unacceptable. Same ducer on 19' Proline connected to a Lowrance 4" display reads clean, unbroken picture up to 30+ MPH...so it's certainly capable...
I'd say I would recommend it, if you haven't already made a new purchase. Be ready to drill a HONKING hole if you're mounting it on the bracket. Running all of those wires up there required like a 2.5" hole in the top of my console.
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Thanks Ryan. The Simrad NX40 on my 205 crapped out a few weeks ago. I debating getting a cheaper new unit to replace it and sell with the 205 when my flatback project is done, or get a new unit and transfer it to the flatback when the time comes. I ended up with a NSS7 (non evo2 version). It will eventually end up on my upper station on the flatback, with a NSS7 evo2 down below. Should be a good combo from what I hear.
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You need to look at the new Furuno 1850 it is the best of both worlds and right at your target $$. While its only a 6" I have been very happy with mine. I have used the Garmin 740 and IMHO feel the 1850 is a much better all around unit.