Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Engines & engine woes => Topic started by: h20ryder on May 12, 2014, 01:05:11 PM
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Just digging in to my 1989 Evinrude 200XP motor (1st time I've touched it since I bought my boat) but found out the VRO pump has been removed and replaced with a different fuel pump by the previous owner. When tearing out the gas tank during my build I noticed that the remaining fuel was premixed in the tank. I assumed the PO just bypassed the VRO instead of actually removing it but now finding out that is wrong so now I am missing parts.
I have never run this motor since I purchased the boat but I did buy a new VRO reservoir a few months back so I do have that part of the system.
Questions: Are there any other parts (other than the VRO pump and bracket) that I need inorder to convert the motor back to original equipment?
Are there any other systems that were likely bypassed/blocked off also?
I didn't want to run premix because I am going to be adding a 4 stroke kicker motor that I was planning to run off the main tank also. Is mixing gas in the main tank easy? Or does it lead to problems clogging fuel lines etc. later on if I just leave the current fuel pump/setup alone?
Any advice would be appreciated.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/VRO1.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=9717&title=vro1&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/VRO2.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=9718&title=vro2&cat=500)
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I had a 1986 Johnson 175. I believe it was a vro engine as it had the external oil tank and pumped and mixed the oil on-engine. Doesn't look exactly like your pictures though.
Lots of owners don't trust the early VRO systems and they premix, even large volumes of oil/gas in the main tank. I initially used the separate tanks and ran straight gas in the main tank. Then I thought I was having an oiling issue and decided not to buy the very expensive pump. So I premixed 70 gals of gas at 50:1 and it ran fine for a season and a half.
I recently went to a newer ficht ram engine so I'm back to separate gas and oil tanks. I just drained out most of the gas and ran it 5 gal at a time in my truck. And now starting the ficht on the last 5-10 gal in the tank, it smokes a bit but at least while we're setting up the engine I know it has oil.
You would not want to run the 4 cycle kicker on oil/gas very long as it would eventually foul the plugs.
--Kevin
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Thanks Kevin
I guess I am going to have to run 2 tanks, one for the main motor with mixed gas and another with straight gas for the kicker.
Sorry my picture was a little misleading because the pump I have labeled "VRO" is actually the electric fuel pump that replaced it.
A new VRO is $330...but the hoses and fittings that are missing to connect it are another $430!
Looks like I will sell my brand new VRO oil reservoir since I won't be using it.
When you ran the mixed gas in your main tank did you just pour the oil in the fuel filler hole then pump gas? Or does it need to be mixed another way?
ProMarine has this replacement mix gas pump for $230 that runs off the motor pulse which is much safer than an electric pump that is a fire hazard so looks like that might be my best option.
Steve.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/fuel-pump-8402-2.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=9728&title=fuel-pump-8402-2&cat=500)
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Hi Steve,
Yes, yours has definitely been converted to pre-mix...and with an electrical fuel pump if my eyes aren't deceiving me. :thumbdown: I've never understood why people would put electrical fuel pumps on instead of just installing the stock diaphram/vacuum pump that OMC used for its premix engines. :scratch:
There's an excellent post/article on Continuous Wave that can help you with some of this VRO stuff:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VRO.html
My personal experience and opinion is that the VRO is a great system and it significantly improved the efficiency of combustion. We ran it on my fathers old whaler w/Evinrude 70 growing up and the motor was bulletproof. I would add it to my old crossflow right now if I could afford the $500+ for new parts. However, as the article says, it must be the VRO2 generation and not the original one that had a few issues and created such negative PR which resulted in nearly EVERYONE removing the system and switching to premix due to fear of failure. If your plan is to run primary and kicker engines on the same below-deck tank, then I would definitley feel safe reinstalling the correct VRO2 for your engine and getting her back to OEM components/design. If you can get your model number, you can look up the part number for the correct VRO system that originally matched your engine, and then you can also research subtitute part numbers to help determine exactly which ones will work with your engine.
Questions: Are there any other parts (other than the VRO pump and bracket) that I need inorder to convert the motor back to original equipment?
Are there any other systems that were likely bypassed/blocked off also?
Depending on what the PO removed, there's a batch of hoses that go along with the pump itself. The wiring should be intact b/c it only needed to be unplugged from the harness to remove the VRO. You'll also need to make sure you rewire the oil level alarm to your horn so it'll yell at ya if you let the reservoir run low. Let us know what you decide to do. The maxrules site has good VRO guidance/parts/support. http://www.maxrules.com/fixomcvro.html
:salut:
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A new VRO is $330...but the hoses and fittings that are missing to connect it are another $430!
While I agree it would be prudent to pay the premium for a brand new pump, the rest of the hoses/fittings can probably be found attached to a blown VRO on ebay for mere pennies compared to the $430 price you quoted.
Just a thought.
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Thanks for the links Ryan
I had read and printed both of those already and emailed maxrules.com yesterday for info and unfortunately they don't have a non-VRO pulse pump for 200 HP motors (only smaller HP motors). They even told me that unfortunately I would need an entire VRO pump with all parts to run it mixed or unmixed. The ProMarine 8402-2 is the only non-VRO pump I could find but then I have to run 2 gas tanks which I really don't want to do.
When I picked my gauge set I chose the Teleflex Marine Arctic series specifically because it had the System Check gauge with the 4 LED warning lights and also purchased the alarm horn and oil reservoir to make a complete VRO2 OEM setup for my motor but didn't know my motor was missing the main part of the system.
I searched ebay for the past few days for a donor VRO pump that I could take all the hoses off but unfortuntely the prebent tubes are different for almost every engine size and year. A couple of the auctions responded back that some of the fittings were cracked or not in good shape although the pumps "looked good."
Looks like the new VRO2 kits come with a bunch of the expensive fittings so maybe that will knock the $430 price down. I just know if I piece out all the little parts to different places it will wipe out any savings after they add in shipping costs.
Probably just going to pull the trigger and build a brand new VRO2 system.
--Steve
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You can run that kicker on 50:1 premix... :wink:
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GoneFission
Will that foul the plugs or clog the jets? Do I need to change jets or anything special to make that work?
This would be a much easier solution for me as long as it wouldn't harm the life of the kicker or void the warranty since I will be buying new.
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Steve,
I'd like to help search if you have enough of a direction/preference. What's the model number for your looper?
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I blew it when I stripped the lower end using a paint remover...it turned the serial number sticker with model number into goo. Is it stamped some place else on the motor?
I'm 99% sure it's the E200STLCEB because the manual it came with had the parts diagram for that model printed out and stapled in the note pages and that is the model number for the only 20" shaft version for that year. Online all the 200 HP XP motors show the same parts for the VRO2 though.
Maybe I should test run the motor before I spend any more money on it. I haven't run it since I bought it. It's on a rolling engine stand and I have a 50 gallon barrel I can put the lower unit in to test it.
What wires do I need to connect besides the power and ground for the starter? Will the stator power the coil and other electronics? I have a bunch of spare wire I can hook up an ignition to it just to test run it with the current electric fuel pump to make sure it runs.
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A new auction popped up on ebay yesterday. Got a brand new VRO2 pump with all the parts including a new oil reservoir with sender and cap, adapter harness for the new System Check confirguration, Teleflex tach with built in alarm LEDs, and alarm horn for $350. Snatched it up immediately. Will post pics once I receive it and have the whole system back to OEM.
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Steve,
That's a superb deal for a new unit WITH accessories and plumbing. Even if you have to pick up a few small pieces to complete it you'll probably only be out another $50. Then you can sell the reservoir you already have and get some back! :thumleft: Was sorry not to be able to do any number crunching for you yesterday. This litter of 13 puppies my wife and I are fostering is quite the handful. Leaves no time for CAS related fun! :pale: Were you able to match up enough part numbers to be sure it will work/fit?
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No problem Ryan. 13 puppies sounds like a real handful.
The part numbers on the ebay auction were the exact fit for what I was looking for. The System Check adaptor harness alone is $300 so I didn't even think twice and ended the auction something like 8 minutes after it started. I will sell my reservoir and the new Tach and will probably break even just off those 2 parts.
Spoke with a local dealer and he told me most the hoses on the VRO are just standard 5/16", 3/8", and 1/4" fuel line so there is no need to buy outrageous OEM parts there. I have all of the parts to setup the system now for only about $25. Will keep you posted on how the motor fires this weekend and then with the install of the new VRO
Steve
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Spent past few weekends messing with the motor after picking it up from the local outboard mechanic who didn't touch it or return phone calls for 4 weeks. Motor has some issues but I am straightening things out one at a time and saving $ doing the work myself instead of the $95 hourly shop rate.
Replaced spark plugs (gapped correctly), plug wires, rebuilt all 6 carbs, removed electric fuel pump and reinstalled stock VRO system, and replaced all 3 amphenol connectors in the kill switch circuit at the powerpack that were causing one bank of cylinders to have no spark.
Previous owner had multiple sized orifices in carbs. Some had stock #39 and #35 but others were #46 and #42 so I'm sure that was causing some uneven issues when running.
Replaced all orifices back to stock, #39, #35, and all high speeds to #62D per the factory manual for E200STLCEB model.
How often do reed valves go bad? Should I remove and clean/inspect them or replace these?
Since I am trying to update this motor and avoid future issues I am replacing most of the questionable hardware but as of right now motor is running better although still producing a lot of unburnt oil in my test tank/bucket. This was all based on running 50:1 mixed on the electric fuel pump before switching to the stock VRO.
Is there something else that might be causing so much oil in exhaust discharge?
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Probably full of oil and carbon from being run on premix. Decarb her good once you get everything worked out.
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How do I decarb it? Is it OK to blast carb cleaner in the lower end with the prop removed or will that eat any seals?
Sorry, total newbie here and never worked on an outboard before.
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How do I decarb it? Is it OK to blast carb cleaner in the lower end with the prop removed or will that eat any seals?
Sorry, total newbie here and never worked on an outboard before.
Here is a good method, many have used it. posted from THT and other forums:
This works for Carbed, EFI, Ficht, HPDI, Optimax and even 4 strokes...
First you need a separate small fuel tank. One of those 3 gal red Tempos works great or an empty gal milk jug will also work, but might be a bit messier..
I use Seafoam over the OEM stuff like OMC Engine Tuner or Merc Power Tune because in the last few years they changed the formula and you have to let them sit up 12 hours. Who's got time for that?? Seafoam you can buy from NAPA, CarQuest or other auto stores. Seafoam works in 15 mins.
You'll need 3/4 gal of gasoline and one 16oz can of seafoam for each engine. Don't forget to add 3oz of oil if you are premixing in a carbed engine. Use about 3 ft piece of fuel hose off the little tank. You connect this tank to your engine by pulling off the main tank fuel hose off the intake side of your water separating fuel filter and plug the hose off the small tank on to that fitting. Or you can separate the fuel line on the tank side primer ball, so you can still use your primer. If you have an engine that has fuel plug then you need a fuel plug on the little tanks hose.
Start the engine, let it warm up and start pulling the mix into the engine. You may have to increase the idle to keep it running once she get loaded with the Seafoam. Run the engine 15 mins in the dock or just cruising around under 2500. Then shut it down and let it sit for 15 mins. Restart the engine, the smoke you see is the carbon burning off. Do the whole thing again and let her sit again for 15 mins. If she smokes after the second time do it again, but I've never seen one still smoke after three doses. The gallon mix should be enough to do this 3 times. You don't need any wide open throttle, you don't need to change the plugs. If it's cleaning the combustion chambers it's also cleaning the plugs, but every 50-60hrs is good time to change plugs in most engines.
I cleaned a antique evinrude one time that had a 1/4" of solid carbon on the exhaust chamber walls by running a 1/2 gal of the mix through it. Seafoam has been around since the 30's and it's what they used when they were burning straight 4 stroke 40SAE oils in outboards.
You guys with the 4 strokes think you are immune from this? Those engines work 10 times as hard as any auto engine ever will and they will carbon up. I bought a Bronco two years ago that had 95,000 miles on it. When I used seafoam on it I had the neighbors hanging out of their front doors looking for where the fire was after I started it the first time there so much smoke.
Too many are under the assumption that it's totally the 2 stroke oil that causes the carbon, Wrong... it's also the additives they put in the fuels today. The carbon inhibitors in 2 stroke oil are there for this reason also. Remember when gasoline used to smell like gasoline, today it smells more like bad cologne.
For those guys that like to do the carbon treatment by spraying it down the carbs Seafoam also comes in spray can called Deep Creep. It's the same stuff under pressure. Says right on the can Oxygen Sensor Safe, for you Yam guys. After that if your engine maunf recommends a daily additive treatment then do that in the mean time, but all 2 stroke outboard need decarboned every 50-60hrs. If I owned a 4 stroke I would do it the same. Once you are set up with the tank and hose the Seafoam is only 5-6 bucks can. It to easy not to do it.
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Awesome info flounderpounder! Thanks. Will try to hunt down some Sea Foam locally today.
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Bought a can of SeaFoam. Added it to 3/4 gallon of gas in pony tank and got ready to run the motor per instructions. Also added Salt-Away to my test tank to flush the cooling passages at the same time.
Engine starts easy and I can see fuel in all lines (all replaced with Tygon yellow transparent lines for fuel and primer lines). There are some bubbles in the fuel line when running, is this normal?
The SystemCheck gauge sounds the horn at start when key is turned to ON then the 4 led warning lights turn off one by one. Then I crank the engine and after about 10 seconds at idle the "No Oil" and "Hot" light both turn on but there is no alarm horn sound.
I followed the procedure in the manual to test oil consumption and with a clear piece of vinyl tubing attached to the VRO2 with oil in it I can watch it being drawn into the VRO2 each time it pulses. So I know the VRO2 is getting oil.
Anyone have any ideas why both the "No Oil" and "Hot" lights come on and stay on but with no warning horn?
If I disconnect the white with black stripe wire on the temp sensor coming out of the port side head both "No Oil" and "Hot" lights go out. I tested the temp sensor and it shows continuity when warm but disconnects once it cools. You can actually hear it click once it cools below 86 degrees per the manual and then continuity is gone.
The factory manual isn't helping here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. These VRO/OMS systems are tricky.
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Replaced both thermostats and installed new impellor water pump kit. Started the motor and overheat light and no oil light on after 3 minutes?
What can be causing this still?
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I may be wrong but I don't think the system check came out until the mid 90s. So your motor may not support it.
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The SystemCheck gauge sounds the horn at start when key is turned to ON then the 4 led warning lights turn off one by one. Then I crank the engine and after about 10 seconds at idle the "No Oil" and "Hot" light both turn on but there is no alarm horn sound.
Anyone have any ideas why both the "No Oil" and "Hot" lights come on and stay on but with no warning horn?
If I disconnect the white with black stripe wire on the temp sensor coming out of the port side head both "No Oil" and "Hot" lights go out. I tested the temp sensor and it shows continuity when warm but disconnects once it cools. You can actually hear it click once it cools below 86 degrees per the manual and then continuity is gone
Let's dissect this shall we.
1. You've installed a newer "System Check" on a motor that didn't originally support same.
2. Lights (but no alarm) come on after a short running period.
3. Disconnecting the temp sensor (I guessing it is period for your motor) makes the lights go out.
Could it be the sensor is not compatible (as was mentioned above) with the system?
Have you investigated what sensor is used for your updated system?
Could the sensor be defective?
I'm guessing the first scenario.
Good luck. :thumleft:
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BRP offers a factory update kit that adds the System Check to any motor. P/N 176709.
All sensors have been pulled and tested per the manual and everything passed inspection with multimeter and DVA.
With the motor running and a timing light connected to spark plug wire #1 I can see the #1 and #3 cylinder marks on the flywheel at random times so the manual says replace the Power Pack (ordered today along with a new regulator/rectifier).
Can bad timing or erratic spark cause overheating?
Just don't want to spend any more money on this thing if there is something else internally causing the overheat issue.