Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Fuel tanks and anything about fuel systems => Topic started by: Dano on February 23, 2014, 03:50:35 PM
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To preface this, this is a 2004 Osprey 200.
This is becoming very frustrating. I have had the fuel tank cleaned once already, put a new gasket over the sending unit for the fuel gauge and after a little bit of sit time of about a month i ran the boat for over an hour today and drained the racor filter to find yet more water. WIth the water are some light brown floaties as well, kind of like tiny shredded leaves. Im not sure where to go next. its a poly tank but under the floor of with no access. I visually checked the connection from the fill line, spray tested the fill cap as well to see if water gets by it from raining.
This boat sat for quite some time before i bought it and the owner was using a tank on the deck because he wasn't using the boat and had previous problems. I am using NON ethanol fuel so its manageable, but i want to trust that I won't get stranded.
Im getting to the point where i may look into opening up the floor to replace the tank, fill lines etc.
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Thought,
Here's one I've experienced before and that is the fuel source itself. When I kept my CCP in the Keys (and purchased fuel at the local marina) I had a steady stream of water in the bottom bowl of my Racor. Since that's what a water separator was designed to do, I just went with the fact that the gas supply was contaminated. It was non E and as such, water in fuel was common in those days since it doesn't mix like it does (to a point) with E-10.
Checking your source is not mentioned in your post so that's one you might want to eliminate.
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Another consideration is the position of your gas vent (exterior hullside).
If pointing straight down, it could ingest water while you're running.
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Thanks for the help… been buying rec90 in 5 gal increments. As to the vent, i have the combo fuel fill and vent cap all in one. I have been reading where some have changed this setup to a standard fill and separate vent. I do get some water on top of the tank after washing down the boat from a leaky pie plate but not sure if that is leaking thru the fuel level sender as i put new gasket and goofed it up good with silicone.
No real fuel smell below deck either which leads me to think no leaks in the tank itself.
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i had a water in fuel issue one time on my osprey, i believe it was the vent allowing water to creep back in. my oldvent was plastic and missing the cover. also found that the loop in the vent hose had fallen so it was just going straight down to the tank... i replaced the vent with a flush SS one when i had the boat painted, also fixed the loop
the old vent is the forward one...
(http://www.fordtruckclub.net/forum/photopost/files/2/2/4/dsc00701.jpg)
new stainless vent
(http://www.fordtruckclub.net/forum/photopost/files/2/2/4/dsc00878.jpg)
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I have the combo unit… Gas fill cap and vent. As my browsing on the interwebs shows, many have had problems with this setup. Im thinking of getting new deck plates and a new fill with separate vent.
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I have the combo unit… Gas fill cap and vent. As my browsing on the interwebs shows, many have had problems with this setup. Im thinking of getting new deck plates and a new fill with separate vent.
That may well be your culprit.
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i had a water in fuel issue one time on my osprey, i believe it was the vent allowing water to creep back in. my oldvent was plastic and missing the cover. also found that the loop in the vent hose had fallen so it was just going straight down to the tank... i replaced the vent with a flush SS one when i had the boat painted, also fixed the loop
the old vent is the forward one...
(http://www.fordtruckclub.net/forum/photopost/files/2/2/4/dsc00701.jpg)
new stainless vent
(http://www.fordtruckclub.net/forum/photopost/files/2/2/4/dsc00878.jpg)
I had the old style and a couple of times, we had very little, but some water in the filter.
I did what Big A did and have not seen the problem since, it may help but gas at the pump source id possible as well.
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The flaky brown stuff is varnish from old fuel that is working loose from the inside of the old tank. Usually ethanol breaks the stuff down causing that problem. Are you sure your rec90 is truly non-ethanol? I think the combo vent fill could be a problem depending on where it is located. Also if your fuel tank is only partially full you will get condensation in the tank with all the wacky temperature changes we've been having.
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Thanks again for the replies. I originally used regular ethanol pump gas when if first bought the boat. it had some water evidently in the tank already as it immediately phase separated and looked real cloudy. I drained that and have been refueling it with non ethanol since. That make sense then that the flaky stuff may have broke loose. its nowhere near as bad but i managed to clog up a racor. I guess it can only get in there two ways….. either seeping in from the top( fuel sending unit due to pie plate leaking) or the fill/vent combo cap.
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Yup if you put ethanol in it that is what started the problem. As soon as ethanol gets put in a older fuel tank it starts breaking down the varnish that has built up in the fuel system. The reason is the ethanol is a very strong cleaner so it lifts off all the build up. All you can do is replace a bunch of filters as it works it's way out of the system.
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Thanks for the help… been buying rec90 in 5 gal increments. As to the vent, i have the combo fuel fill and vent cap all in one. I have been reading where some have changed this setup to a standard fill and separate vent. I do get some water on top of the tank after washing down the boat from a leaky pie plate but not sure if that is leaking thru the fuel level sender as i put new gasket and goofed it up good with silicone.
No real fuel smell below deck either which leads me to think no leaks in the tank itself.
I've had a boatload of these problems so I have some experience. #1-you need to make sure no more water is pooling up on top of tank. Fix that pie plate or whatever it is. Water will find it's way in through the sender in my experience, and additionally it will screw up your sender readings.
#2 pretty sure gas will eat right through the silicone so it's basically useless, but someone else on here can say whether that's true or not.
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#2 pretty sure gas will eat right through the silicone so it's basically useless, but someone else on here can say whether that's true or not.
Gas will soften/gel silicone when exposed. If any squeezed out inside of tank, it will eventually find it's way to the pick up and clog the screen. We use a bead of silicone around the outside edge of the sender, then cake waterproof grease (Merc 2-4-C, Farley :wink: ) on top of the sender and electrical connections. Make sure the top of the tank is clean and we scuff it up a little where the silicone sits for better adherence.
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#2 pretty sure gas will eat right through the silicone so it's basically useless, but someone else on here can say whether that's true or not.
Gas will soften/gel silicone when exposed. If any squeezed out inside of tank, it will eventually find it's way to the pick up and clog the screen. We use a bead of silicone around the outside edge of the sender, then cake waterproof grease (Merc 2-4-C, Farley :wink: ) on top of the sender and electrical connections. Make sure the top of the tank is clean and we scuff it up a little where the silicone sits for better adherence.
2-4-C and Perfect Seal.... Mmm Mmm Good!
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I may have to try Perfect Seal or some of these other gas proof sealants I'm reading about now like Permatex #2. Anyone have experience with this?
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I may have to try Perfect Seal or some of these other gas proof sealants I'm reading about now like Permatex #2. Anyone have experience with this?
Perfect seal is a non-hardening assembly sealer, that I use on everything. Bolts, gasket surfaces, water pumps. I have used it for at least 20 years on anything that has water, fuel or oil around it or going through it! It is not a form-a-gasket like some Permatex chemistries. I have assembled things with Perfect Seal, had it go away in salt water for 7 years and come back and take it apart like it was put together last week.
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i just added a bead.outside of the gasket and coating it with permatex black nonhardening silicone. It specifically said it was gasoline resistant or something. Next step will be to install new pie plate and look into filler setup. ive splashed it with water and none inside but dont know if it is leaking from constant rain.
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i just added a bead.outside of the gasket and coating it with permatex black nonhardening silicone. It specifically said it was gasoline resistant or something. Next step will be to install new pie plate and look into filler setup. ive splashed it with water and none inside but dont know if it is leaking from constant rain.
Another thought: It can be getting in more ways than just the pie plate above tank. If your console isn't sealed properly and you get water draining in there, it can get in lots of places there.
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Ive seen the attwood thru hull vent for the vent line, but i was needing some recommendations for the fuel fill. Any ones that you all can recommend?
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If you want a nice one that will last...get a Perko chrome on bronze.
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Success….. I purchased some nice Rabud deck plates. They have a different o-ring configuration that the original TH units. After they set up i wet the entire deck and no leakage! I also gooped up the sending unit again with more permatex for good measure.
Also installed some rabid scuppers and new starboard platform for swim ladder. I think Ill add another deck plate for the rear bilge as well.
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Im at my wits end with this boat. Went out again and barely made it 1 mile and motor bogged down. Drained over 16oz of water out of the racor. fuel filter on motor side had water in it as well. badly made it back to boat ramp after draining filters and starting again. i don't know what the next step is short of having someone put in a new tank with new filler lines and vent. it has killed my scalloping trip, won't take it to the keys and generally want it to sink at the dock. I've lost any confidence in this boat.
so far I've checked……. new razor, new deck plates to keep water from leaking thru, completely covered the sending unit with sealant, already had tank pumped and cleaned once. i wish this 2004 had a coffin lid to remove the tank, but I'm about ready to get a skilsaw and cut thru to see what is going on.
Is there any help to fix this?
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so did you actually replace the vent? if not use this one. http://www.iboats.com/90-Degree-Fuel-Ta ... 7AodLjYAKw (http://www.iboats.com/90-Degree-Fuel-Tank-Thru-Hull-Vent-Fitting-Replacement-Cover-for-1670-3-Attwood/dm/view_id.197058?cm_mmc=Google_Main-_-Mall+Product+Listings%3AGoogle-_-+%3AMall+Product+Listings%3AGoogle-_-Attwood&gclid=CNzQ5ISzoL8CFc8F7AodLjYAKw)
how is the seal in the fuel fill cap?
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OK that is a TON of water. It has to be getting in there somehow. Do you have a neighbor or an Ex that doesn't like you? If the tank is cracked enough to let in that much water you'd be leaking fuel. Is the boat stored under a cover? It has to be rain water leaking in through something. Does your fuel fill have an O-ring missing?
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so did you actually replace the [img]vent? if not use this one. http://www.iboats.com/90-Degree-Fuel-Ta ... 7AodLjYAKw (http://www.iboats.com/90-Degree-Fuel-Tank-Thru-Hull-Vent-Fitting-Replacement-Cover-for-1670-3-Attwood/dm/view_id.197058?cm_mmc=Google_Main-_-Mall+Product+Listings%3AGoogle-_-+%3AMall+Product+Listings%3AGoogle-_-Attwood&gclid=CNzQ5ISzoL8CFc8F7AodLjYAKw)
how is the seal in the fuel fill cap?
Agree, that is a ton of water. Sounds like she's shipping water through the vent on the entry. Not an uncommon problem.
Change the vent as suggested, and on the install...make sure its angled to the stern, not downward.
This may sound weird, and don't go to the ER over it....but next time you drain the filter....if you are able to get to residual water only....stick your finger in the water and taste it. If its salty...the vent is the culprit.
You can also determine salinity with saltwater pool test strips.
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If you went only one mile there is no way the water made it that far into the fuel system THAT fast. I say it has to be rain water. Scott's idea of checking for salt is a good suggestion but i just don't think the water is getting into the tank on the water THAT fast.
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If you went only one mile there is no way the water made it that far into the fuel system THAT fast. I say it has to be rain water. Scott's idea of checking for salt is a good suggestion but i just don't think the water is getting into the tank on the water THAT fast.
Excellent point.
If its rainwater....there are only two venues for intrusion. Gunnel fill and below deck hose/tank connection. First and most likely is the gunnel fuel fill... puddling/holding water around the fill in a frog-strangler.
You may have a poor/deteriorated connection up there. Hose slightly cocked off the barb, sticking out. Just enough to leech water. Pull the deck fill and hose, let us know how it looks.
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Thank you for the replies.
1. I have not replaced the filler yet; it is a combo filler vent cap. I did the garden hose test and it did not leak. I mean i really sprayed it around the cap and no water inside after opening.
2. The boat is not covered or stored under anything so it is open to the elements.
3. i have replaced the deck pie plates and they are dry ( keep water out)
4. i have replaced the sending unit gasket, and covered that with silicone ( gas resistant)
5. had the tank cleaned once previously ( drained filtered etc)
New racor filters, and had the VST done last year as well.
Here is the thing,
the boat has had glass work done on the side where the fuel fill is, impact of some sort so looks like they replaced the filler with a single filler tube vent combo instead of the separate vent. I can look inside and see the hoses are attached, checked the attachment on the front of the tank and it looks good. The rear pickup is attached well.
No smell of fuel in the bilge.
I cant believe that it would have that much condensation building up in the tank to create that much water.
Im not sure what else to do other than new cap and separate vent and still arent sure that could be the cause.
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Have you added fuel since you completed all of the above?
Again, if you have added more fuel and there seems no other entry for water, maybe it's the fuel itself aka.... the source. :idea:
Don't know where you're fueling but..... water in old fuel storage tanks isn't a rarity but rather a fact.
Just a thought.
Good luck.
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good point. change gas stations. preferably one with A LOT of traffic through it. or fill up a few 5 gallon jugs and slowly pour them into the fuel tank looking for water when you get toward the end. this is a lot of water to be entering the system if its all sealed up good.
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I am getting fuel at the ONLY non ethanol fuel station near the water. Seems to get quite a bit of traffic and alot of boats are seen filling up.
Any recommendations for someone to do a new tank install? They would have to cut the deck and reglass it in. West coast Fl... Tampa area.
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I am getting fuel at the ONLY non ethanol fuel station near the water. Seems to get quite a bit of traffic and alot of boats are seen filling up.
That's a good sign but.....
So there's no misunderstanding, water in non-ethanol fuel environment will sink to the bottom so storage tanks with non -e have two distinct layers (if water is present), fuel and water.
Ethanol can have three layers. The fuel, the original ethanol that has reached its total saturation point and any additional water that it no longer can absorb.
I'm not stating that either scenario is present at your area fueling stations but my experience with a high level of water content in my fuel has been when using non-e. Also, the ethanol/water layer can pass through your Racor filter and will not fall to the bottom but this isn't your problem.
When you had the tank drained and filtered, was there a high percentage of water present at that time?
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yes..... so it has been an ongoing issue. Originally put in E10 and had the phase separation issue. I havent had the boat too long and when i got it the guy was using an external tank because he said he only used the boat once or twice a year. He had the tanked pumped out completely and cleaned. I am chasing this problem myself.
I guess the only thing left is the fuel fill setup. Cannot see where it would be getting in elsewhere........
Or just a whole new fuel system install. Tank lines etc.
Motor has low hours and rest of boat is solid and has potential.
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I'd get rid of that combo filler vent. I think those are intended to be installed on a vertical surface not a horizontal one. Also it is not how Aquasport designed the fuel system. I'd like to see a pic of said filler/vent install.
To rule out water being introduced by the gas station get yourself a Mr. Funnel. It is a water separating funnel. I have on and it works GREAT. http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html (http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html)
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I'd get rid of that combo filler vent. I think those are intended to be installed on a vertical surface not a horizontal one. Also it is not how Aquasport designed the fuel system. I'd like to see a pic of said filler/vent install.
To rule out water being introduced by the gas station get yourself a Mr. Funnel. It is a water separating funnel. I have on and it works GREAT. http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html (http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html)
Bruce, I was reading your mind, was checking the Mr Funnel site as you were posting this. Their high-flow model is great for gassing boats.
Agree about changing the vent, and when that happens, make sure the vent hose runs up past the vent and then back down....leaving a high loop.
Dano, if you want to check for salinity, PM me your address and will send you some salt concentration test strips.
No need to spend the bucks on a new tank, etc. if yours is good. The water is being introduced, all we have to do is figure out how and where.
(http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Models_files/Marine%20-%2005.jpg)
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Thanks again for the help....
hard to imagine that it would be saltwater from the short time it took to fill the filter. I had run the boat on the hose a few time before taking it out just to keep it running well.
I guess the next step is to siphon off the lowest part of the tank. Will angle boat down and go in thru sending unit. remove water, reseal the sending unit ...AGAIN... install a new filler, vent and try again.
I imagine if the fuel tank had a leak, id smell fuel in the bilge. Probably the same if the filler hose or vent line had a hole as well right?
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That's right. And get one of those Mr. Filters to use at the gas station.
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Just a question.... :scratch: ... did you have the tank cleaned or did the previous owner have it done? Only asking because we all know of situations where we were told something was done that really wasn't...If he had a big enough problen to use the on deck tank, maybe there was still a larger amount of water still in the tank when you purchased it, hopefully not so but who knows..if you can get to your sending unit, you can empty the tank after removing the unit,shine a sealed (no boom) light in the tank and take a look.. it would be easier than removing the tank if you don't have to, but I would change the vent anyway as everyone else has pointed out..
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another good point. i think we've all had a PO tell us something was done when it wasnt. and anyone using an aux tank as their main would make me very suspicious.
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Yes i had it cleaned. I replaced the gasket. Im pretty handy around boats so i usually go through everything myself. i guess there are only three holes in this tank. One goes out (pickup tube) so it is of no concern. densing unit and filler. if all get sealed correctly than (theoretically) nothing should enter ( water).
If this doesnt fix it, this boat could end up with a full transom, bracket etc....
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I'd get rid of that combo filler vent. I think those are intended to be installed on a vertical surface not a horizontal one. Also it is not how Aquasport designed the fuel system.
That may be true for the "classic" Aquasports, but not so for the era of the subject boat. I've got a combo fill/vent on my 2002 205, on a nearly horizontal surface, with no water intrusion issues to date. That doesn't mean the fill/vent is not the issue here, but I don't think it is a flawed design as long as there is no standing water where it is mounted.
I would do a pressure test of the tank before cutting up the deck. The poly tanks are pretty durable. It think a ruptured tank is highly unlikely.
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Ok so here is where I'm at….. (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/thumbs/Image_4.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10084&title=image-4&cat=500)
This is what i started with and then it went into it to remove and replace.This is what I found when i got the filler assembly up out of hull. looks like a significant gap for water leakage. (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Image_3.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10083&title=image-3&cat=500)
How about this hose?(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Image_2.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10082&title=image-2&cat=500)
ANd the underside of the filler assembly…(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Image_1.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10081&title=image-1&cat=500)
I am thinking this is where the water has been getting in the whole time. Ive replaced the vent, and a separate sealing fuel filler cap. I hope this works!
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When i install the new filler assembly should i just double clamp it to the hose or is there any sealant i should also apply ?
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Dano, appears you have found the gremlin. Double clamp with all stainless, you're golden :salut:
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Double clamp it as Scotty stated. Make sure your clamps are "all stainless". Many of the clamps advertised as stainless have a stainless strap and a carbon steel screw/gear.
Just out of curiosity, were there any clamps on that hose before you pulled the fitting? If so, were they tight?
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one clamp only and not very tight at all. Now the hole where the old filler was is too big for the new one. Going to try and find a small piece of starboard to raise it up and cover hole. I will then install new filler thru that piece over the hole. ALso going to try and siphon out the water tomorrow thru the sending unit.
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I knew it had to be something simple. Glad you found the problem!
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Its not the prettiest, but this will be better than what was there.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Image_9.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10096&title=image-9&cat=500)
Tried to keep from cutting yet another hole in this boat.....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Image_8.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10095&title=image-8&cat=500)
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So far so good - no water in tank anymore. Interesting thing I found when checking the pickup for any obstructions. The 90 degree fitting had a small chunk of aluminum blocking the pickup tube. The shutoff block had no real cel supply coming thru it?? Cleared that with a pick and reinstalled the fittings. The boat finally ran great for miles at wot until the last time I tried to get up on plane. It would only reach 4000rpms. Thinking I've got an air leak somewhere or possible vst or injector issue now. Getting close to the finish line though!