Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Trailers => Topic started by: Georgie on November 04, 2013, 04:53:09 PM
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So, I was wondering the other day why I was having such a hard time getting my trailer jack rotated under my trailer and getting the lock pin to engage; I had to lift up MUCH harder than usual to get enough clearance between the trailer and the ground :scratch: .... until I stood amidships and looked at the tongue. :shock: She'd rusted so badly from the inside out that I hadn't noticed, the bottom wall of the 3X4" galvanized tube was completely severed, and a crack had formed in both side walls that ran to within an inch of the top of the tube! Appears I was lucky she didn't completely fold and result in a complete nose-dive on the way home from the ramp. :oops:
Now for the hard part...I have an OLD shoreline galvanized tilt-tongue trailer (the body and axle are in perfect shape otherwise I'd just replace the whole thing, and Shoreline has been out of biz forever) so I'd need a 9 ft. long replacement piece of 3" X 4" galvanized tube to start my repair. Any ideas for sources? I've tried most of the basic on-line sites (approx $200-ish) and my local trailer shop says he's only got one piece of 3X4 left so they can't sell it.
Also, anybody have any knowledge of welding galvanized steel? From what i've read it puts off some pretty noxious fumes but if you're working in a well ventilated area with a big box fan to blow the fumes away, then it can be done with the same equipment as normal steel welding b/c the melting point of the zinc is SO much lower than that of the steel. :?:
Thanks in advance for any insight, gents! :salut:
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Ryan, rather than replace the whole length of square tubing, why not just cut off the fwd bad section, get a "sleeve" that 3"X4" slides into, and go with the shorter (and much easier to get!) piece to replace the rusted out part? No welding, all bolts. Unless you feel the whole piece isn't too far behind the bad section...
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i have welded galvanized steel a few times, it welds the same as regular steel but put out the toxic/noxious gasses as the galvanized coating is burning. to minimize the fumes you can grind the galvanized coating down to bare steel. also i prefer to use flux core wire instead of solid and shielding gas when welding galvanized steel as im welding outside with a fan blowing...
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Ryan how about just using cold roll and then covering inside and out with POR15? Galvy is expensive as you know and if the tongue is well coated with a paint like POR15 and able to drain it will last most likely longer then you will keep it.
If you bolt it together then you can dump the paint in the tube, roll it around and end over end to ensure complete coverage and not have to worry about burning the paint off putting it together.. My Yacht Club trailer has a 3x5 tongue that is through bolted in 2 places with 5/8" bolts.. No welds.
:salut:
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You have to grind off the zinc before you can weld galvanized steel. And yes you don't want to breath in any of the fumes! You can't have a fan on the weld since it will blow away the shielding gases, even with flux core wire. Best to do it in a very well ventilated area. The best bet is not to weld at all since once the galvanized coating is damaged there it will begin to rust in that area... no matter what you put on it your only slowing down the process. Bolting on a new section would be best. There has to be a source for a new tube in your area.
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Good advice, and definitely worth keeping. Those old Shoreline's are beasts :thumright:
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Bolting on a new section would be best. There has to be a source for a new tube in your area.
Having had this problem I agree, I went with an aluminum tongue but I know guy so the price was right :wink: finding one local is the way to go if you can, shipping a Galv tongue won't be cheap, long and heavy.
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Wow, that's a lot of good info guys! :shock: Thanks!! I guess I was a bit remiss by not clarifying that this old trailer has a braced hinge/pivot bracket (rusted, but definitely salvageable) that I'll need to cut off, clean, and re-weld to the aft/rear end of the tongue tube in order for it to be reattached to the frame. I'll try to add a photo tomorrow when i have my other computer.
why not just cut off the fwd bad section
SB - if only that were possible...but the entire aft section is bad from repeated dunking while the forward section is fine. :evil:
Aaron - thanks man... glad to hear from someone I can trust that the welding galvanized steel is feasible, and a few helpful pointers as well...might save me a few hundred in labor. My local shop (solid reputation) gets $80/hr but estimates 3 hours for the 6-weld job... :roll:
Dave - you kill me consistently b/c your knowledge and familiarity with such a huge spectrum of marine arts is as well rounded as anyone I've ever (not quite) met and an embarrassing percentage of what you write is purely Greek to me. It's not all just Maineiac theory, right?? :lol: I'm great with wood (Dad's a carpenter), but fairly weak with metals except as far as lathe-turning and general machining goes. My grandfather was a LIFETIME welder but it was all straight steel and i never got to pick his brain as much as i wanted before he retired and got rid of his equipment. :( I'm morbidly ashamed to admit I have NO idea what cold roll is and I have no idea what POR15 is :oops: ...and I feel foolish researching it now, yet I'm still gonna do exactly that as soon as I'm done with this post.
best bet is not to weld at all since once the galvanized coating is damaged there it will begin to rust in that area.
Bruce - that was my exact concern, so I've been inquiring about hot dipping locally, but I asked the local shop and the guy I spoke to said when they weld galvanized, they just coat the fresh welds and burnt areas with cold galvanizing. I know it seems like a short term answer, but they have an AWESOME reputation so they can't be disappointing too many people I'd think. :scratch:
Scott - this one has to be steel so I can weld the pivot bracket to it; I wish though... :| Will definitely keep digging. Because of the antiquated design of my tongue and trailer, it's already pretty hard to find the 9 ft. section I need.
I really appreciate the input guys. Thanks again and keep it coming if anything else comes to mind :salut:
Just noticed I completely misspelled my thread title...classic. :pukel:
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Failyur...yur kiddin' me...
Living close to the Everglades will do that to you... :thumright:
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Make sure and check with Cliff at B&S trailers. He is one of our vendors. If he doesn't have anything there, he might have a suggestion for a supplier.
352- 912-2161
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10767 (http://classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10767)
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I have a bunch of experience with cold galvanizing spray. It is probably the best thing you can put on there next to actual galvanizing. However even then it will allow rust to form under it over time since all it is is paint with zinc in it. So you will have to wire brush it and reapply it once or twice a year and in time the welded area will rust. Like I said with steel your just buying time delaying the inevitable. Granted the tongue doesn't get dipped in the salt as much as the rest of the trailer so it would take a while.
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Yes please give us a call here @ B&S Trailers. If you give me the size and gauge of the tongue material that you need we can either help you out here or point you in the right direction so that you may complete your repair. Our phone # here is 352-591-2161
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My apologies Ryan!!! :oops:
Cold roll is a steel forming process as is hot roll. The end result is differing steel strengths, the cold roll being not quite as strong but very adequate for a trailer and also common and cheaper. When working in the trade, that is how some guys refer to it ie cold roll box tube is what you're looking for.
Welding galvanized. 6011 rod will do just fine and will burn through the galvy and produce a bunch of slag and a typical 6011 looking weld. In the shipyard when we welded galvy schedule 40 6 inch pipe on for rail we caps did all the tacking with 6011 and then the welders came behind us and ran wire over it. (Don't remember what wire though). The welds were then painted.. We wore respirators or made damn sure we were out of the smoke. If inhaled, nasty hacking for a bit followed by a hell of a headache.. So don't do that.... :wink:
POR15 is probably the toughest coating for auto frames I have ever seen.. Our mechanic built up a 52ish Jeep Willies (sic), his truck and that is the way he spells it, and put that stuff on the frame. He took great joy in his demo on how tough the paint was. He'd walk deliberately to his tool box, pull out a ball peen hammer and walk over and whack the TAR out of the frame.. :shock: :shock: The hammer would leave a baby elephant track but not damage the paint. 5 years later, after a post mudrun hose off, the paint still looks like it did the day it cured.. I think I'd class that as good stuff..
:salut:
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Dave - First, don't ever apologize for providing a member with new, quality guidance. What you wrote is HUGE info for me, so I can only imagine the benefits you can give to our other members...and for me personally, thanks! One of the biggest things I get from this forum is exposure to techniques, materials, or chemicals my local market and personal experience are not familiar with. You, however, have an ability to make me feel dumber than anyone I've ever (not quite) met. :lol: and I mean that in the MOST appreciative sense. :salut: The info you provided will be seriously helpful come welding time...and dammit I GOTTA learn to weld. :x
Lewis - I spoke to B&S and magically they had in stock the tube I need, for the cheapest price I've seen yet, were beyond personable on the phone, and are able to ship to me for only $35-40. :shock:
Bruce - if I reattach my coupler and pivot bracket to the new tube do you think a healthy dose of cold galvanizing will do the trick? Any special prep work to make it last or do I just make sure it doesn't sit exposed to air for too long once it's prep'd and ready to go?
decisions...decisions....decisions....
Thanks again,
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B&S are really good folks to deal with! It is good to have them as a member here.
I have had really, really good results using this.
http://www.amazon.com/Hammerite-Rust-Pr ... pray+paint (http://www.amazon.com/Hammerite-Rust-Preventative-Spray-Paint/dp/B000LNTYGM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1383798848&sr=8-3&keywords=hammerite+spray+paint)
Once this stuff cures it is really tough. It doesn't show much when sprayed over the galvanized. I have had zero areas peel or even get scratched once it is cured. It will go right over any rust and seems like it seals it off and has been working on my trailer for the last 2 years. If you decide to use the galv spray it seems that 3 out of 4 cans lock up in the bottom and you can never get it all out.
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Ryan how about just using cold roll and then covering inside and out with POR15? Galvy is expensive as you know and if the tongue is well coated with a paint like POR15 and able to drain it will last most likely longer then you will keep it.
If you bolt it together then you can dump the paint in the tube, roll it around and end over end to ensure complete coverage and not have to worry about burning the paint off putting it together.. My Yacht Club trailer has a 3x5 tongue that is through bolted in 2 places with 5/8" bolts.. No welds.
:salut:
Ditto on the POR15. Used that on the rusting frame of my F150, it killed the rust and coated the frame. Was good to go for years after that until I sold it. Think I still have some of it around here somewhere.
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Thanks guys,
Probably just gonna go with the galvanized tube from B&S to keep it consistent with my existing materials. Heck, I can't even find any 3X4 cold roll anywhere locally that will sell less than a 24' length. Got a buddy who'll weld the pivot bracket and coupler back on for the price of a bottle of Jack (hopefully weld first, Jack later :drunken: ) Can anyone think of any significant drawbacks to shortening a tongue by 1 ft? The trailer currently rides nicely and is balanced well, but I like to keep the tightest turn radius possible and it'll also save me a few bucks in material and shipping costs if I shorten it. I currenty have enough additional tube length that I can spare the 1ft and still reattach my post, spare wheel bracket, tongue jack, and coupler. Would 1 ft. make a significant difference in tongue weight? performance? anything else I'm not thinking of? :scratch:
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Ryan, the only "issue" I would think would be a change in tongue weight, how much I don't know. Obviously it would increase, and if I pried open the long dormant physics cells in my brain, we could figure it out...calculating the mass of an object as the normal force is moved further away from the COG...
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Would recommend double-checking the tongue jack mounting position. It needs to be able to swing freely, also consider sharp turns without encroching on the ball/coupler. The one on the 22-2 barely fits in the up position... wish had a little more space....
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Would recommend double-checking the tongue jack mounting position. It needs to be able to swing freely, also consider sharp turns without encroching on the ball/coupler. The one on the 22-2 barely fits in the up position... wish had a little more space....
2X
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That's true fellas. Therefore I'd go with the drop-foot type jack.
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Ryan I have never had a trailer tongue be to long, but had three where the damn thing is to short by just enough... Nothing is ever #%€£&$ easy...
If you go a foot shorter the tongue weight will be heavier and you may possibly have to adjust the dolly or push the winch stand back. What do you want to spend your time (only you know the value of that) doing?
If I could get a tubing stretcher I would make my current tongue at least 9 inches longer.. That way I could shift the boat forward and not have 24 inches from the last trailer support to the transom edge.. The wobble wheel carriage provides support but when the bunk conversion happens the lumber will be quite stout.. A longer tongue would let me pull'er ahead...
:salut:
The galvy tubing I would need to do that is over $500 less shipping :shock: .. Hence I adapt and overcome.. :oops:
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a foot difference really wont make much of a difference in turning radius. i wish i had an extra foot on the tongue for my trailer as its used for both my 200 and 222, with the 222 i have the winch post as far forward as it can possibly go(which included moving the jack), the transom is still 6 inches aft of the bunks
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Gents -
Can't thank you enough. Ordered the full 9' galvanized piece to replace my bad tongue today after I left work. $135 shipped to my door. Decided shortening a perfect riding trailer was foolish. Great advice from a great bunch of guys. :salut: Will post photos of the replacement...I PROMISE.
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Updates? Pics? Did you get the tube from B&S?
Back to the shortening the tongue idea. This would make a shallow ramp difficult.
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Hey Lew,
Yup, went with B&S. They had the galvanized 9' tongue to me in on Monday evening after placing the order thursday or friday!! :cheers: Have a few (embarrassing) pics of the old tube to post (gotta upload to photobucket first b/c my CAS gallery is no longer accessible - long story :roll: ) and had the new tongue and coupler welded to the old hinge bracket last night. Started re-assembling the winch post, tongue jack, etc. but want to buy some new galvy hardware to replace some of the older rusted stuff while I'm at it. Will finish the project tonight assuming no trouble re-snaking the wiring or drilling the steel. I plan to take some more photos after it's all done, and then she'll be ready to roll in time for the weekend! Gotta get wet, y'know! :bounce: Can't STAND being landlocked. :pirat:
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Slow and steady on the drilling, Ryan. Sharp cobalt bits, lots of cutting oil. Step drill, start small and increase DIA... :thumleft:
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Before (SCARY):
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/ryguy110177/Badtongue1_zps7e0c12ac.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/ryguy110177/Badtongue2_zps73100b66.jpg)
After:
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/ryguy110177/Trailertongue3_zpsfd9cf0f8.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/ryguy110177/Trailertongue2_zps01da949e.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/ryguy110177/Trailertongue1_zps30587256.jpg)
Once everything is all re-mounted and wired I'll post a final pic. :cheers: