Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Center Console Professional (CCP) Rebuilds => 246/250 CCP Rebuilds => Topic started by: gon2sea on July 28, 2013, 04:12:25 PM
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hi everyone, im new to the aquasport world... just started a project on my 246CC, installing a cummins 6bt and tunnel drive...
going v drive as even a bravo II doesnt do well behind the cummins due to the low rpm and torque.
i have already done this conversion twice on larger uniflites, a 27 express and on the 28 mega i still have...
here is a link to some pictures, keep in mind the project is only 3 weeks old..!
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... sport246Cc (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc)
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seems like overkill for a 24 ft boat. and thats coming from someone who wants to put a 383 stroker in a 200 osprey. :shock: :lol:
we have a few yanmar powered boats at work, they are running the larger bravo one X/XR drives and bravo 3 XR. the bearings, gears and shafts are much stouter than the standard bravo one or 3
cant wait to see what kind of performance the boat has when its done!
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Welcome aboard!
Interesting conversion, looking forward to seeing how she turns out.
Your method of tank removal falls in the category of "why didn't I think of that?"
Fill the coffin with water....and the tank floats out :salut:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/DSC_0075_2_.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7861&title=dsc-0075-2&cat=500)
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it would of been much easier to simply bolt on an outdrive but so far the volvos and mercruisers are not built to hold up behind the 6bt, even the bravo II X Diesel isnt up to the task, the yanmars are smaller and higher revving engines and dont have the low end grunt of the cummins.... and besides at some point this boat will live in the water in the sea of cortez and outdrives, even though they tolerate sea water, dont hold up like a good shaft and prop.
Overkill would of been spending $25,000 on a new cummins marine 370 hp engine, this will end up being 1/3 rd the price of a new 200 hp outboard, will get close to twice the fuel economy and will last 15,000 hrs and the boat was free.... and i have 5 other cummins... what else was i supposed to do..!
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Oh my,
A rather unique installation. Very interesting. :idea:
Good luck and keep posting pics. :thumleft:
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Overkill would of been spending $25,000 on a new cummins marine 370 hp engine, this will end up being 1/3 rd the price of a new 200 hp outboard, will get close to twice the fuel economy and will last 15,000 hrs and the boat was free.... and i have 5 other cummins... what else was i supposed to do..!
Raise a toast to King Neptune and all those that have gone before good sir and post some pictures! Going to be a cool project.. :mrgreen:
Curious, what kind of speed are you looking for? My interest is in shaft angle and wheel size for the tunnel.. Might give a surface drive or water jet a thought if you want 20+ and skinny water.. She is gonna sound COOL!!!!! :salut:
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it would of been much easier to simply bolt on an outdrive but so far the volvos and mercruisers are not built to hold up behind the 6bt, even the bravo II X Diesel isnt up to the task, the yanmars are smaller and higher revving engines and dont have the low end grunt of the cummins.... and besides at some point this boat will live in the water in the sea of cortez and outdrives, even though they tolerate sea water, dont hold up like a good shaft and prop.
Overkill would of been spending $25,000 on a new cummins marine 370 hp engine, this will end up being 1/3 rd the price of a new 200 hp outboard, will get close to twice the fuel economy and will last 15,000 hrs and the boat was free.... and i have 5 other cummins... what else was i supposed to do..!
Here's the good news. The weight is slightly behind midships, low in the hull...exactly where you want it.
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I like the idea. As for structural integrity. I think it will be stronger enough. I think you will tie the motor mounts into the stringers their by spreading out the motor weight and the tunnel its self will add to the structural integrity of the hull. It will be like adding a large rib. This will be interesting to watch. I do have a question. With the motor, drive and tunnel, where will the fuel tank go and how large will the tank be?
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this boat was designed for about 475 lbs to be hung on the transom not 1500 lbs in the middle of the boat, Originally the boat was designed for about 1000lbs Motor and fuel. Your going to be over that with no fuel.
Well in 75, the 22-2 was built to handle both outboard and inboard applications. Weight difference between the two was listed at about 800lbs. on the inboard side. I would guess that increase was due to the motor which was placed amidships. Different length hull but design-wise probably not a lot different than the 246. Just a guess.
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... oa&cat=557 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2738&title=as-22-2-inboard-outboa&cat=557)
A little bit on the layout.
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... hp?cat=558 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=558)
I believe you're working with this hull with the CC cap.
http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery ... 0s&cat=546 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=3439&title=246-ff-back-1970s&cat=546)
Good luck.
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I like the idea. As for structural integrity. I think it will be stronger enough. I think you will tie the motor mounts into the stringers their by spreading out the motor weight and the tunnel its self will add to the structural integrity of the hull. It will be like adding a large rib. This will be interesting to watch. I do have a question. With the motor, drive and tunnel, where will the fuel tank go and how large will the tank be?
Saddle tanks may be worth considering. Another idea may be to transversely mount a tank in front of the engine across the stringers in a coffin. Regular shape tank in front of the engine....she may be a digger in a following sea.
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(http://www.albemarleboats.com/images/242flat.jpg)
This is an Albemarle 24, same hull as the old Formula 24 or Prowler 24.
The inboard engine is beneath the console, jackshaft drive.
Just called Albemarle....the boat runs twin tanks, outboard of the stringers, 60 gallons each, slightly aft of amidships.
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the motor weights in at 1200lbs including transmission etc.... the cummins marine 6bt uses cast iron for manifold and other pieces... the bowman manifold is alluminum, also the placement of the engine, as cpt bob mentionned is more midship balancing the weight out, both my uniflites, weight in at 8500 lbs and will do 20 knots at 2600 rpm with same engine, i have no doubt she will do 28 to 32.
think of it this way.. add four adults and you've added 600 to 800 lbs... the motor weight really is not a concern, spreading the weight with strong engine beds is important.
regarding fuel tanks i have room left forward of the engine in the original tank recess for a 60 gallon tank... plenty for 8 hrs at cruise. im starting out with a 18X26 prop, should put me in the ballpark of where i want to be. Eric
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18 x 26 prop? Wow that is a big wheel. I guess gobs of torque is the key there. What is the gearing on the transmission?
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What do you calculate as running weight, no passengers, full fuel?
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lets see.... 2550 boat, 1300 motor , ruder , shaft etc... 500 fuel, 500 passengers, thats 4850.
the shamrock 246 with gasoline weighs in at 4300 dry with gas engine, throw in the optional yanmar 6lia and its well over my figure... im not looking for a speed demon, just a good solid and sea worthy hull, hopefully i'll get a chance to take her out before heading down to baja in late september, but i have no problems taking her and doing sea trials down there....
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lets see.... 2550 boat, 1300 motor , ruder , shaft etc... 500 fuel, 500 passengers, thats 4850.
the shamrock 246 with gasoline weighs in at 4300 dry with gas engine, throw in the optional yanmar 6lia and its well over my figure... im not looking for a speed demon, just a good solid and sea worthy hull, hopefully i'll get a chance to take her out before heading down to baja in late september, but i have no problems taking her and doing sea trials down there....
That is exactly what I was figuring. Right at 4900#.
Main thing....fuel placement. I called Albemarle today on your behalf.... they're here in NC. On their inboard-powered 24 jackshaft (original Albemarle 24) they place twin fuel tanks outboard of the engine for a reason. The tank forward idea on your hull....I'm thinking she's gonna dig. And dig bad in a following sea. And not like you can trim her up. Tabs are no help....tabs offer only downward trim on this application.
If she'll never go in the ocean...a lake boat....or if your ocean there is like a lake, not so much of a problem. Weight placement/running attitude/safety is less of an issue.
But...if a bow heavy boat in the ocean digs hard going downhill in a big following sea...and the boat is thrown sideways...big problem.
Over here, we may get two slick days out of thirty.
You asked for opinions...hope this gives additional consideration.
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I agree with Scott. Rough seas are a norm here as well. I like the saddle tanks. Outboard of the engine. You would be able to fine tune the boats balance point by moving the tanks a little forward or aft as needed. A digging bow would be a problem for me up here. I normally power up a wave and back off the throttle going down a wave to lift the bow , so I’m ready for the next wave. If fuel were to roll forward, starting down the wave it would push the bow down and backing off the throttle wouldn’t help me. The boat would settle to much keeping the bow down. It wouldn’t be pretty. But which ever way you go, this will be one of the more interesting builds. I’m looking forward to it. I’m also looking forward to seeing how she sit and handles once finished. :thumleft:
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The 222 was offered as early as 1975 with a gas or diesel inboard with a Paragon or Velvet Drive transmission, so a 6BT Cummins on a 246 should work. :thumleft: The 6BT is about 38" long and that should fit under the console. Saddle tanks amidships or toward the rear would make sense to me and would keep it from being nose-heavy.
Is the gearing 1:1? You really don't need/want a gear reduction for most diesels. If the gear is 1:1, it seems like a 17-19 pitch prop would be about right for a 2500 RPM cruise.
Are you going to use raw water cooling, or install a heat exchanger and go with fresh water cooling - some diesels don't do well with raw water cooling... :scratch: Water to air intercooler or air to air? Air flow over the intercooler could be an issue with air to air, but space could start to be a problem with water to air... :scratch:
Looks like a cool project! :salut: Keep posting pics!
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A relatively simple exercise to see what is going to happen is to set up a spreadsheet and look at some numbers.. :wink:
The hull in its present state has a known weight. If you do a quick search of the threads here you will find more than one where the topic of weighing a boat comes up (not on a weigh station scale, axle weight won’t help). In short, the hull must be level and supported by at least three points. The locations of the scales must be known as accurately as possible for a datum point. Standard is a 0 reference at the forward perpendicular (furthest forward point of the bow).
So for the sake of discussion, you level up the boat and have figured out how to set up a bathroom scale so you don’t blow the springs out of it like a bad Bugs Bunny gag :oops:. At the forward jack point which is located a measured 4.5 feet aft of the FP you see 1875 lbs. The aft two jack points are right under the chine at the outside edge of the transom at 24.5 feet. On the left you see 980 and on the right you see 1000.
The math.. :roll:
Arm x weight = moment. Weights are summed (Wt) and moments are summed (Mt) then to find the calculated CG (arm) you divide Mt by Wt and that gives CG..
In this example 1875*4.5=8438 then 980*24.5=24010 and 1000*24.5=24500.. Finish up with the sums we have an empty hull that sits an empty weight of 3855 with an arm of 14.772 (moment is 56948).
So now what.. :?: ?
If you set up a spread sheet that has a reasonable number of stations and start putting weights in places it is really interesting to watch what happens to the arm, the one I did starts at 0 and goes to 24.5 in 1.5 increments..
Put a 700 pound engine :thumbleft: at 13.5 and the arm moves forward to 14.57 feet. Put the fuel, say 75 gallons forward of that at 10.5 ft and now the CG is at 14.14 ft moving forward and as Scotty said she will be a mother with a following sea.. :shock: :puker:
So to counter this you put a 40 gallon live well at 23 ft and plan to run it full all the time (343#) you only shift aft to 14.70 ft. Move the engine to 15 foot mark and use wing tanks on either side for a total of 75 gal and you are now at a 15.34 ft arm..
And an “oh by the way” the weight of the boat is now 5346# and there is not a screw or a new drop of resin hold any of this stuff in place. :shock:
The point of this is to take a careful look at where you put stuff, you’re gonna be fine with a little care.. Without knowing where the CG is of a good riding and floating boat is it is almost a pointless exercise. If you could splash your hull to see how it floats it would be an immense help.. Take all the kids with you and have them move around until she floats level and put them back in the boat for the weighing with dire threats to hold still until you are done and then you are in business!:mrgreen:!
What would be totally cool is if one of the Brethren that has a 246 that floated well HAS figured out where the CG is. That way we would have a record of the arm that makes the hull sit pretty and ride well.
Then one of us Wingnuts could put an 8V92 TA in a 246( just to watch her go of course) and come out ok where she sat. Waterline might be a little deep but so what… 8)
This WILL be a cool project!!
Edit: My Apoligies! I just reread the thread and I would have used your weights if I had been paying attention!! :oops: :oops:!!
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While we are spending your money for you check these guys out..
http://www.evolutionmarine.com/detail.html?id=3001&cart=137528800735814165
I don't work for these guys nor am I beer drinking buddies with them (have met then and they are worth having a beer with though..). I have seen the shaft systems and have worked on boats that have them. They cost more but are a really slick way to go if you want no dripping stuffing box, low maintenance, efficiency and comfort… :thumright: :thumleft: !!
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I don’t want to sound like I’m high jacking this thread, but some one did bring up a jet drive. Here’s a pic. Of a boat I’ve never seen in the marina I use. The lines of this boat are what drew me to her. Once I started to look her over I saw she had twin jet drives. I would love to talk to the owner to see how she does in the Atlantic. I know it would be a great boat on the Chesapeake. But back to my reason for posting it. You obviously have a lot of experience with tunnel hulls. You must also be going to use your 246 in shallow water, or why the tunnel. So I thought you may like seeing this boat. Like I said, since some one did bring up jets.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/DSCN0587.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7876&title=pic-for-post&cat=500)
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The 2550 number you have off the capacity tag I assume?
If so, it is supposed to be the difference between the maximum displacement (design number) and the boat weight. The boat weight is supposed to be (33 CFR 183.33):
The combined weight of the hull, deck and structure, permanently mounted stuff (“appurtenances” is the Fed word, when’s the last time you used THAT in a sentence?? :roll: ) and weight of “full permanent fuel tanks”..
So, when the boys do an overhaul and gut the boat they are in effect changing the design parameters of the hull. Some cases reduce the boat weight by a few 100 pounds when using new lite cored materials and going with a smaller fuel tank. A lighter boat weight means more machinery/cargo weight..
How much? :scratch: Again, without the design weight we can just guess.. I attempted a search but got skunked. Going to look through Bob’s CD to see if it is there..
As far as HP ratings, that’s based on math involving the boat length and max beam towards the stern so that isn’t effected by the rebuilds..
You are however dead right about the more steel you put in the less beer you can carry and it all increases the power required to achieve spry performance..:salut: The size of the wake could get big enough to surf on :mrgreen:!
Rick if we (I) are/am flogging the mule you can delete this post :oops:.
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I've read this thread and I've absorbed a lot about weight, performance and seaworthiness so to throw a curve (but not derail) let me ask this.
What's up with the "tunnel hull"?
Not being in the boat business for 30 or 40 years and never worked on any boats other than I've owned, my understanding of the creation of the tunnel is at best, weak.
Understanding the concept is easy enough but the steps needed to complete are lacking.
Is the original hull cut and re-glassed or is additonal glass added to form the tunnel?
If it's cut, how is the original design performance shape affected?
No one has hit on this aspect of the rebuild and I'd like to know. After all, I know that older CCPs and other model Aquas had the inboard option but from the photos I've viewed, none were tunneled. I'll do a little internet soul searching but I would like "gon2sea" to hit on this aspect of his project.
Thanks and good luck. :thumleft:
Edit: Something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYnIolOAJwo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYnIolOAJwo)
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Capt bob not trying to step on any toes here, but from my experience . They where built to facilitate getting into shallow water as well as to make trailering easier. Pen Yan built a lot of them. I still see a lot of those boat around, don’t know if they are in buss. Any more though. As for building one, you have to cut out the old hull and form your own tunnel to fit. We built one on an old boat for a duck hunter friend once. We built the tunnel, then put it up to the hull and traced it on to the hull and then cut. Then fit and glassed it in. That worked for us. I know their are a lot of people that like inboards and want to get as shallow as they can. So the tunnel lets them do that.
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Thanks salt.
I edited my post and added a You Tube vid of a guy doing one on another boat. That's just what he did.
The tunnel concept of reducing draft makes great sense and is probably what "go" is planning.
However this works out, it's an interesting rebuild to say the least. :salut:
For an old doper like me, this is great stuff. We have a good deal of "out of the box" rebuilds going on.
Superior information and input for all Forum members. Thanks to all participating :thumright:
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What's up with the "tunnel hull"?
Not being in the boat business for 30 or 40 years and never worked on any boats other than I've owned, my understanding of the creation of the tunnel is at best, weak.
Understanding the concept is easy enough but the steps needed to complete are lacking.
Is the original hull cut and re-glassed or is additional glass added to form the tunnel?
It it's cut, how is the original design performance shape affected?
Edit: Something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYnIolOAJwo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYnIolOAJwo)
Short on time so short answer.. For a little history take a look here at William Atkins plans:
http://atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/Everhope.html.
If memory serves, it all began with the Seabright Skiff. They were used in the surf and beach net fisheries of the Jersey shore and were prime for the transition from oars to power in the first days of marine power. Easy to drive, very efficient hulls that did well with low power and could hit the beach flat with no damage to the running gear. Advent of formable plastics morphed to the idea of a tunnel vice the built down section of the skiff on production built boats, as Walt said Penn Yan built a pile of them.
For modifications to existing hull shapes, tunnel types range from the shape of a big pipe (to form a mold) pushed up into the hull on an angle to give you room to swing a wheel size that matches the power you have, (guy at Whaler Central did that to a banna hull 22 Outrage to run skinny with an outboard) to the shape that the gent on the link used to allow for a smooth transition for the shaft. Ideally the shaft angle is set up to be as close to 0 as possible for maximum efficiency. You do have a slight loss of buoyancy due to the decrease in displacement volume of the tunnel and there is a slight increase in drag because of the increase area of the wetted surface. The drag we would not notice at the speeds we run.
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Tunnel hull and prop pockets are the same...allow for a much lower placement of the motor in the hull, using, say a 6 or 8 degree down angle transmission coupling, allowing the prop the clearance it needs, giving a more direct "straight line" of propulsion as opposed to traditional I/B installs (usually under the helm with long shafts to allow the least downward deflection). The only true drawback to tunnel drives, or prop pockets, is the loss of stern lift due to the reduced running sections of the hull aft. This can be compensated for by tabs, especially out of the hole.
V-drives are certainly viable in this setup, especially if they are on hand, and either cheap or free. The down angle of the output flange will dictate the size and location of the pocket. But V-drive installs are meant to locate the engine aft, as their concept is rooted in creating room that would otherwise be used up for machinery. So a console or leaning post locale for the motor would dictate, just by common sense, a straight shot I/B.
I do agree with Scott in regards to the Albemarle jackshaft setup that they have been using for years. That's what I would do...but it seems the Cummins is a bit averse to the more commonly available outdrives out there. Oh, they're out there, but cost $$, and it seems that the OP has a lot of hardware on hand that he can put to use, rather than drop another $7500 on a drive that will make the Cummins happy.
So I say throw the Cummins in there, get the tranny angles right, create the pocket, see what she does. Why not?
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Sink or run like a scalded dog remains to be seen.In between is fine.
Keep it coming go2sea.You have started a very technical rebuild and for that we thank you.
Now this thread is really taking off.
Thanks to everyone on the tunnel primer. Just what I needed. :thumright:
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IIRC, back in the early 90s Sea Ray was dumping their exhaust into the tunnels...anybody remember that, like on the Sun Dancers?
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I think this is an awesome thread and there is a lot of really good points here.
Keep it coming, I look forward to the final result, I think it will work out fine.
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Since we're all chiming in on his project, everyone please take note......
Eric posted a link to his photos. If you go there, you will see he is using a Hurth HSW 630 V Drive. Meaningless to me but just curious so I "Googled" it and it appears to have a gear ratio of 1.56. I'm not sure if that's correct.
Also, Eric appears to be leaning toward a 18 x 24 4 bladed prop (as per the photo, though he posted a 18 x 26, typo maybe?).
Eric needs to chime in here to confirm or deny my thoughts. :idea:
This is turning into a great learning experience.
Thanks.
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This going to be a very interesting thread to follow. I agree with captbob. I’m really looking forward to follow this to completion. You never know, this may start a whole new trend. :thumleft:
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I spent a good deal on time on one of those Penn-Yans back in the 70s... Nice boats.
Here's a nice thread on a 25 Bertram that got a tunnel/pocket:
http://www.cssims.com/25_bertram_prop_pocket.htm (http://www.cssims.com/25_bertram_prop_pocket.htm)
Here's a Carolina boat being overhauled with a pocket:
http://www.fishbiteme.com/images/DSC00059res.jpg (http://www.fishbiteme.com/images/DSC00059res.jpg)
And why do the prop pocket? Take a guess what the power is:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attach ... et-007.jpg (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/70125d1336117590-prop-pocket-007.jpg)
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The Bertram is a good read. Noticed about the dry stuffing box caused by the pocket. Kinda gets one thinking about Dave's Evolution Marine shaft link.
I would guess that Eric, having done several conversions has that worked though this by now. :idea:
I was waiting for you to chime in CJ.
Good stuff. :thumright:
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Mod Edit by permission for thread continuity and to increase understanding of this subject by all members.
(Edit: CB if this post doesn't make sense anymore delete it as appropriate, context maybe lost, it seems like I am making a random turret’s type statement maybe? Any/all mention of blade load is gone I think.. Don't need people here calling me Crazy Dave too..:mrgreen:)
Care must be exercised with all assumptions..... :idea:
With tweaking, Eric is expecting 220hp +/- at roughly 2600 rpm with the gear at 1.56 that gives 1666 at the wheel with a tip speed of about 77kts. It will be near the edge of performance for an 18 inch wheel at that speed.
With a four or 5 bladed wheel, I am having trouble seeing where blade load will be problem.
If I am incorrect in my thinking by all means let me know, we are all here to learn and assist when we can..
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Eric, aka go2sea, please update when you get a chance. :idea:
This is a very interesting rebuild.
Thanks!
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I don't don't know if Eric will be returning but if you want to see some interesting stuff and gain a little insight on this member, go back to his first post and click on his photo link. Then browse all his photos. This Aqua, as he stated his first, is just one of a number of things this gentleman has undertaken and experienced. Quite interesting really and a missed opportunity for the Forum.
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im still here...lol.., the last few days i have been working outside ( working 4 -10 hr days ) and in arizona it can be brutal especially during monsoon season with higher humidity, so, evey now and then i simply come home beat... darn, wish i was 20 again.. well, not really just wish i had the energy.
many of our projects, at least many of mine are somewhat influenced by fund limitations, i would love to go with a 4 blade 18 x 24" prop but since i found a used 3 blade 18x26 in like new condition for $125 that is what i will go with as a starting point, got the motor mount brackets made this morning and am in the process of lifting the engine into the boat, had to take some time out to run into phoenix to get 5 gallons of laminating resin and 10 yards of 1708 biaxial glass for the tunnel, so i hope to have my shaft angle figured out by tomorrow so i can start working on the tunnel, the vdrive is 12 degrees, a bit more than i would like so i think then engine will have to be angled to flatten the shaft.
i really appreciate all the feed back and thoughts and links, lots of interesting articles and knowledgeable bunch...
Eric
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added a few pictures to the link...
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 3405177458 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5907665073405177458)
i tried uploading a picture but i think my file size was too big...
Eric
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When you get a chance Eric take a look at the top of the page and find View Messages right next to log out.... You have a few PM's waiting!
Stay out of the hot sun!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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OK I'll bite,
What's wrong with this photo? The hull, engine or me?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/246_Tunnel_hull.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7894&title=246-tunnel-hull&cat=500)
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Nary a thing CB, except 1 too many mufflers...unless he plans to split the exhaust. The Cummins is a I6, so only 1 exhaust manifold...
You're not talking about the engine being bassackwards, are you? Remember, V-drive bud, V-drive...
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Beat me to it SB!
:mrgreen:
Unless I am mistaken, we are soon gonna see the V-drive hard mounted to the hull forward of the engine a little ways. The thrust from the wheel is transmitted to the hull through the V-drive itself. The V-drive can be connected to the engine with something like a Spicer drive shaft (U joint on either end) allowing for the engine and gear to be truly soft mounted reducing engine noise and vibration transmitted to the hull making things quiet..
This is cool aint it? 8)
To keep the noise down Eric where are you going to exit the exhaust?
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I'll be damned.
Like this eh.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/V-drive.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7895&title=v-drive&cat=500)
So the gears inside the the V drive itself are shaped for the angle of the "V"?
I'll assume there is a standard degree or can you fiddle with the angle?
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CB,
On some cruisers, Sea Ray for instance on the Sun Dancers, the motor will be aft, connected to a tranny via a short drive shaft where the tranny lives under the settee in the aft cabin. Then of course, the prop shaft heads back the other way out the hull bottom...
Like I said earlier, v-drives optimize cabin room. Or cockpit room. So Eric's idea is good, considering he has the parts. If the motor is to be located mid-ships, either under the console or the leaning post, then straight shot is the way to go...
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Yes CB, just like any standard tranny, you have what we call "down angles". Trannies are available in a number of different down angles. Builders design the hull bottom, particularly the shaft log portion, to utilize what's available, down angle wise.
Eric said his Hurth was a 12 degree, which IS a little steep. He'll jack up the front end of the motor, which will reduce that angle in relation to the hull. Do his rear engine beds properly, he'll be fine...
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Man this thread is really getting cool. So many different things involved that are different then normally done here. :thumleft:
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in this application, like on most larger boats, the vdrive is bolted solid to the engine and the shaft uses a standard shaft coupling / flange to transmit power, the prop shaft goes thru the vdrive hollow shaft allowing the coupling to be accessible on the back side of the transmission instead of under the engine / transmission. as such standard marine mounts are used as they have to take the forward thrust and keep alignment.
the picture posted of a Vdrive speed boat is using a CASALE vdrive, most of those are actually over geared, where the prop spins faster than the engine.
i will be using twin exhaust, i will Y right off the turbo and run down thru each muffler.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 3665832786 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5907932043665832786)
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Stringers look pretty beefy now :thumright:
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Eric, not really sure why you want to Y the exhaust, other than for symetry purposes. Single exhaust and 1 muffler ought to do the trick. Line the engine box with Soundown, and you'll have your quiet boat.
One of the biggest challenges with inboard installs is the exhaust routing, especially on small boats. Big boats with lots of below decks space, not that big of a deal. But exhaust hose is BIG, as the wall thickness is typically about 3/8", so even 4 1/2" hose comes out to almost 5 1/2" DIA, which takes up a LOT of room. Then you have to make room for the muffler. Eric, I'm very curious as to how you plan to route...
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turbo diesels, and i suspect most turbo applications DONT like back pressure, if the exhaust isnt free the turbo wont spool up..., cummins recommends a minimum of 5" exhaust on their 300hp 6bt. i know from past experience that i had to increase exhaust size 3 times on my first cummins install, of course in hindsight i should of simply measured exhaust backpressure.. being a mechanic, it always felt like something was holding the engine back untill i went with a 4" (sch10 pipe -4-5/8" od ) off the turbo and after 2 feet split into two sch10 3" ( 3-5/8" ) and out thru the transom, what a difference that made, night and day. i had a bunch of sch 10 stainless from a job we did at a large semiconductor plant upgrade in the DI / RO plant. sadly im short on that but have some 4" stainless tube that will work for the exhaust and matches the two mufflers i have and im sure i will get a bit of back pressure from the mufflers.
So, that is my train of thought, proof again that bigger is better....lol..
the " engine bay" is pretty cramped so i will route the exhaust just like i have the mufflers laid out in the picture and straight out the back. it will require a stepped engine cover but that isnt a problem.
got most of the tunnel "mold" done today, will finish tomorrow after work and start glassing so hopefully by next week end i'll be working on the stuffing box and the prop shaft strut.
Eric
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added a few pictures of the tunnel fiber-glassing progress....
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 4155071154 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5910118904155071154)
running into town today to get 12ft of 3 X1/2 stainless flat bar stock to make the shaft strut and "cage " to protect prop.
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The tank location sounds interesting. Please take some photos before dropping the motor back down. :thumright:
Thanks.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/aqua_tunnel_2.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7929&title=aqua-tunnel-2&cat=500)
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Really nice progress!! :thumright: :thumleft:
What's the plan for a stuffing box? And the wheel guard, are you planning on a shoe made with the flat bar?
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the tank location is the front third of the original tank as the motor doesnt take all the room in the old tank " recess " under the floor. finished fiberglassing the tunnel today, will probably work on the rudder tomorrow, unlike my other tunnel boats where the rudder has a bottom bearing, this one will be supported by the tunnel and a upper bearing on a bracket bolted to the inside of the transom, this will minimize on drag under water., made a 2" fiberglass tube today for the prop shaft / stuffing box, will have to re- mount the motor to align it and glass it in.
the prop cage will be slightly different as well compared to my other boats, it will be single instead of double, again to reduce drag
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it would of been much easier to simply bolt on an outdrive but so far the volvos and mercruisers are not built to hold up behind the 6bt, even the bravo II X Diesel isnt up to the task, the yanmars are smaller and higher revving engines and dont have the low end grunt of the cummins.... and besides at some point this boat will live in the water in the sea of cortez and outdrives, even though they tolerate sea water, dont hold up like a good shaft and prop.
Overkill would of been spending $25,000 on a new cummins marine 370 hp engine, this will end up being 1/3 rd the price of a new 200 hp outboard, will get close to twice the fuel economy and will last 15,000 hrs and the boat was free.... and i have 5 other cummins... what else was i supposed to do..!
Sell one to me for a third the price of an O/B? :roll:
Seriously, I love the sound of this build. :salut: Oh wait, I was serious about the other too.
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Have any p-pump motors laying around? :D
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Eric,
Wasn't that long ago the good members posted my pics. And I really appreciated it. Now it is my turn.
Photo Gallery had issues loading up tonight.....one pic at the time unfortunately
First cut, tunnel drive install
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel4.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7931&title=diesel4&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel1.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7935&title=diesel1&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel3.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7930&title=diesel3&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel_5.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7932&title=diesel-5&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel_6.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7933&title=diesel-6&cat=500)
The Romans moved water hundreds of miles via arches...nothing stronger than an arch.
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i really appreciate helping me out posting pictures, i havent quite figured it out yet...lol, i have a few new pictures on my picasa web album.
ive got a " P " pump in the cabin cruiser and one in my truck, keeping my eyes open for one to swap into the aquasport... just missed a nice one when i bought this one, it went for $1200... my source will let me know when they get another one in, but realistically, the 160 hp engines with VE pump will get you an extra 100 hp for free with hand tools. motor homes had some VE pump engines rated at up to 230 hp from the factory.
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I may have missed it in one of your post, but what material did you make the tunnel out of? Or is it being used as a form to mold the tunnel in place? Sorry for asking if you all ready posted it.
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Happy to help. You are getting a nice job :thumright:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel7.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7936&title=diesel7&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel8.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7937&title=diesel8&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel9.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7938&title=diesel9&cat=500)
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Neat thread!!!
Anderson is still making tunnel boats out here on the left coast.
Check it.
(http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/attachments/check-out-my-boat/455889d1373233467t-custom-greenough-17%3B-new-build-a9.jpg)
(http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/attachments/check-out-my-boat/455890d1373233469t-custom-greenough-17%3B-new-build-a10a.jpg)
(http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/attachments/check-out-my-boat/455886d1373233456t-custom-greenough-17%3B-new-build-a2.jpg)
(http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/attachments/check-out-my-boat/455885d1373233451t-custom-greenough-17%3B-new-build-a3.jpg)
(http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/attachments/check-out-my-boat/455882d1373233444t-custom-greenough-17%3B-new-build-a7.jpg)
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Sweet boat there!! :thumleft:
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Sweet boat there!! :thumleft:
Yesirry bob!
All the west cost commie boats are sweet. Check out Wilson, Radon, Davis(now Davidson) and Anderson boats. Solid workhorses.
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the tunnel was formed over 1/8" fiberglass shower board, the minimum was 8 layers of 7108 biaxial with some areas re-enforced with more layers. early on, the subject was brought up about the risk of the stuffing box running dry, i have not encountered that problem in the past, tunnel or no tunnel, there will be a " ventury" effect where the shaft log/ prop shaft enters the water, i have always used teflon packing and keep my box fairly loose and have never had any shaft damage.
new pictures have been posted on my picasa album
eric
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 0260938978 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5913525920260938978)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesl_10.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8000&title=diesl-10&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesl_11.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8001&title=diesl-11&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/diesel_12.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8002&title=diesel-12&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel_13.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8005&title=diesel-13&cat=500)
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slow going this week, motor is in for good and bolted down, working on the shaft strut now. been over 110 degrees every day this week and by the time i get home at 4 pm after a 10 hr work day ( 12 away from home ) im kind of beat and can only deal with the heat for an hour or so as the boat is outside in the sun...
should have the strut done by this week end and i can start on the controls and fuel tank.
eric
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Just want to say that this is a super cool build and I am a fan of the innovation and craftsmanship that is going into it. It's pretty amazing to me and I look forward to following the progress to completion. Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing!
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its been a productive weekend, got the ruder done, made the shaft strut and mounted it, installed the sea star helm pump and motor controls in the center console, did some fab on the trailer to adapt it to the v drive and bunks to support the boat as it was a " generic " boat trailer i got a good deal on and have to make it fit the aquasport. i got the exhaust welded up from the turbo back through the mufflers, just have to finish the pieces going thru the transom.
4 weeks left before our trip down Baja, still have to get the aftercooler piped in, install the heat exchanger, make the fuel tank and run the controls...
i'll play it by ear, its doable but im not sure i want to work that hard...lol.. i do have other boats i can take with me, ill decide in two weeks.
heres a few more pictures.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... sport246Cc (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc)
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wow! really impressive work!
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You have some impressive fab skills :thumright: She will definatly be a one of a kind ,can't wait to see a pic of her in the water :salut: Great job!
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mother nature is against me today, got home from work and i did manage to cut out the two 4" hole through the transom for the exhaust and was planning on welding out the final pieces but i could see a huge dust storm quickly approaching, had just enough time to put the tools away and make it into the house to find two shivering and scared dogs...
there must be rain behind it, blowing about 50 + and the visibility is still at about 500 feet, with this kind of wind we are normally lucky to see past the hood of the car...
hopefully i'll have some new pictures tomorrow....!
eric
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Let's see some updates! This is a unique rebuild - and thanks for sharing your ideas and progress... :thumleft: :salut:
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ok, ok.... here are a few updates, week from hell, worked at intel occotillo for 10 hrs each day and then 5 more hours supporting a job at intel chandler... 15 hr work days didnt leave me ANY time to do any important stuff like the aquasport...!
i did manage to finish the exhaust and also made the aftercooler bracket and piping. at this point its obvious i will not have the boat ready for my late september baja trip, i need to shift my focus on the truck / cabover, making sure my 1957 glaspar is ready as well. hopefully before the trip i will be able to pipe in the heat exchanger on the aquasport, the last mechanical "big " item....
here are the last few pictures.
Eric
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 0335682370 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5918796010335682370)
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Am I miss understanding something. Are you leaving in the splash well ??????????? With the motor and its cover, taking up so much deck space. That well, to me becomes premium space. Why I’m asking that, is you have the exhaust pipe going through a nice clean cut hole in the well wall. Also love the chevy freightliner.
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You're right...the stern is tight.
Pics forthcoming.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel_13.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8005&title=diesel-13&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Diesel_14.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8006&title=diesel-14&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/DSC_0129.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8081&title=dsc-0129&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/DSC_0149.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8083&title=dsc-0149&cat=500)
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yes, i am leaving the splash well, i will have a walkway around the motor and the well is a good place to land fish and board the boat as i do alot of diving, i am playing with the idea of a solid transom with a door but i will wait till i get her in the water and go from there. i posted one more picture of the transom and exhaust. the motor cover sits 22" tall, its sitting at a friends house untill i get a chance to glass it.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 3858486562 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5919186473858486562)
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Any updates? :scratch: This is a cool build and we would love to see some new pics! :salut:
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I'm thinking he's prepping his other toys for his trip later this month to Baja.
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ive been out of touch for a while, trip to baja went great, lots of dorado and tuna, lobsters and scallops, again the 50 mile dirt road / mountain pass took its toll, nothing major though, the tongue on the boat trailer cracked on two sides, had enough steel to make it back home...!
ok, back to the project, very little progress, did get the heat exchanger mounted and partially plumbed in but presently am concentrating on getting my shop built, 32 x 42 , ive realized it too hard to get things accomplished since i have to make a 60 mile trip back to my old house and shop everytime i need to machine something or do any alluminum welding.
i did find something many of you might enjoy, it was enlightening to me as well especially since i got the company to give me reduction ratios and prop sizes... i should be really close with my prop.
here the link to STRIKE yachts, they have a CC26 with inboard cummins and tunnel drive... 5gph at 26 knots...maybe less...
http://www.strikeyachts.com/ModelDetail ... d=Strike26 (http://www.strikeyachts.com/ModelDetails.aspx?itemId=Strike26)
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Welcome back! Looking forward to seeing more on your project as it happens. :salut:
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Gon2-
If you can swing it, please post some pics of your spoils on "Chum" page! Wanna see some lower Pacific spoils!! :?: Love your work so far. Fun to watch such a unique build...sometimes i wonder what Coburn and Sargent would think re: what's happening to the vintage versions of the boat "brand" they started... :salut:
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progress is slower as im splitting my time between my new 32 x 42 shop construction, re doing the interior on my uniflite mega 28 and my aquasport.... this week end project was fiberglassing the forward part of hull liner where the original aluminum fuel tank sat, the new tank will hold 65 gallons and should give me plenty of range.
ive added a few pictures.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... sport246Cc (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc)
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fuel tank is finished, posted new pictures on that in my picasa web album. hoked up the hydraulic ram for the steering, got all the controls done as well. presently working on a top for the center console. got my 1-1/2" thru hull installed and all i have left to do motor wise is run a " water " line from thru hull to pump intake.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 5341920946 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5951003845341920946)
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I've never seen anyone make a fuel tank out of fiberglass
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 4056899666 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5942191404056899666)
- didn't really come together in my mind until I saw the pic of it closed in.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 9080770306 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5951003649080770306)
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Your fabrication skills are exceptional. Everything seems like it belongs just where it is. Awesome build! Im a huge fan!!!! :thumleft:
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Glass fuel tanks for diesel and non-E gas are great. But no Ethanol...which Eric doesn't have to worry about...
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Glass tanks are proven for both fuels. Hatteras ran fiberglass tanks initially and for many years.
Glad you're back, your work is amazing.
Great seeing her come together :thumright:
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Using a pickup cover as hardtop is a great idea! :cheers: You see those things go cheap in junkyards, etc. Keep up the good work - this is a cool rebuild...
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Hope you don't mind if I was to use your pick-up cover as a t-top cover idea :salut: I had not even thought that far out of the box :scratch:I 'm planning on making a glass cover for my t-top this winter and was preppared to lay the glass and epoxy (3-4 layers) and form my own until I saw this... man what a time and resource saver...Have to admit you have some wicked skills and :bball: to tackle a job of this magnitude :salut: but she is going to be awesome when finished and definatly a one of a kind...keep us up on the progress and great job.. :thumright:
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Im back...lol, the project is back on track, got my new shop completed and now have a real floor to work on instead of desert dirt...! now i can actually do pretty tig welds on a bench instead of chicken scratch on the dirt and breeze blowing my argon away.
just finished mounting trim tabs, got all fluids in the motor, and am doing some wiring, did hit the starter yesterday and found out the starter is not engaging.... the industrial flywheel spacing is different than the dodge cummins donor engine, i'll have to change starters, ive got a shelf full of them, industrial, dodge 1st and 2cd gen diesels so i know i have one that will engage.. ill measure the back spacing when i pull this one out so the next one i put in will be the right one...!
ive posted new pictures on my picasa web album,
https://picasaweb.google.com/1049052607 ... 2937756882 (https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#5985839452937756882)
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A lot of progress on a lot of things :salut:
I like the trim tabs - great idea.
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Serious tabs there! Tabs a basically a must on I/B boats due to the inability to trim...
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I keep getting a google error trying to see the photos.
Do I need to add something to my Mac?
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she's in the water and floating fine, preliminary sea trials gave me 20 at 2000 rpm and 3.8 gph , WAY under propped with low boost and low exhaust temp at cruise, need more pitch....
pics of boat in water.
https://picasaweb.google.com/104905260722286217761/Aquasport246Cc#6282413469835157330
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:thumleft: Looks great
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I had to go back through all your pics to get the whole picture - man, what a rebuild. :salut2:
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Looks to be balanced well, would like to hear that thing run once it's dialed in
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Nice work man! Looks great!
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Sweet! Good job!