Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Mechanicals - things that need a wrench, screwdriver or multimeter => Fuel tanks and anything about fuel systems => Topic started by: daniel123 on April 05, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
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So I bought the fuel sender everyone here recommended last fall and had it installed at the local marina shop at the same time I had the new dash assembly put in, with a new fuel gauge, and topped off the tank for the off-season -- so I expected the gauge to read full, 'cause the tank was. But when I went to used the boat for the first time since, last week, while burning a quarter tank of gas, the gauge read empty when the key was off and jumped and stayed on full when on. No in between. Does this mean it's a bad/no ground? Here is a photo; the wires shown are those leading from the wiring harness for the sender, which go off screen for a few inches, and wired to the dash panel. The one black wire is split to two, as you can see. Does this look right?
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NO :?
First, cause it's too small to see.
Second, again too small to see but it appears to me that you grounded both the ground (duh) and the sensor feed. :scratch:
Still too hard to make out.
Is the white wire from the sender attached to the S post or pink or whatever color on the back of the gauge?
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What Bob said. That is a WEMA sender, black and white off the sender. Black to ground (corresponding black wire in the hull harness), white to pink. And might I add buy some adhesive lined heat shrink butt connectors to give some longevity to those terminations? :thumright: :thumright:
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Guys, I have posted the pix larger in my gallery at Daniel123 which should help you see how it's wired now. I'm not sure I understand what you are telling me that I need to do, wiring-wise, other than use better connectors. Help -- in detail!
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Guys, I have posted the pix larger in my gallery at Daniel123 which should help you see how it's wired now. I'm not sure I understand what you are telling me that I need to do, wiring-wise, other than use better connectors. Help -- in detail!
Well.....
For some reason my definition of "larger" differs from yours. My computer could be suffering from "dburr syndrome" which may not be curable so......
OMC fuel gauge. Guessing yours looks similar?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/DSC06228.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6980&title=dsc06228&cat=500)
Back side of same gauge.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/DSC06227.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6979&title=dsc06227&cat=500)
OK, starting from the top left of the gauge in this pic.
1. Ground post for light,unmarked.
2. Ignition post. This is the switch power post allowing the gauge to receive 12v when you turn on the key. Marked "I"
3. Gauge ground, marked "G"
4. Sender post, marked "S" (Note, I attached a yellow wire to this for ID).
That stated, it appears in your photo and by your description that you have attached both wires coming from the new WEMA sender to what appears as black wires.
Again, your statements as to what is occurring indicates to me that you have wired both sender (white) and ground (black) to the ground on your boat.
Could this be the case?
Does the wire spliced to the white wire on the new sender terminate at the "S" post on the back of the fuel gauge.
Your turn.
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Daniel,
the photos you posted in the gallery appear to already be reduced in size (unless I just didn't surf long enough to find the full size ones... :P ). Next time, post your full size photos there. Only the forum needs reduced photos.
To add to both Bobs' guidance, the black shrink tubing leaving the top of the sender and going towards the bottom right of the photo should contain two wires (your pic doesn't show the terminal end of those wires so I can't tell where they go). Those two wires should be white and black like SB mentioned. Crimp (using the better heat-shrink adhesive lined terminals) the white one to the pink or red wire that runs directly to your fuel gauge, and the black one to any portion of your black ground circuit. You should also take the time to run a green ground wire from the body of your tank to your fuel cap on the gunwale. See Fletch's rebuild thread for some recent discussion on this. Hope that helps.
Based on your comments in your earlier post, are both wires protruding from the WEMA shrink tubing black? If so, you may need to swap/reverse your connection or break out the voltmeter to collect more info.
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It looks like he wired the pink wire from the WEMA to the correct red wire that goes direct to the gauge and the black wire from the WEMA he spliced into a black (ground?) wire he located under the deck. Keep in mind, I had the new sender installed the same time I had him put in a new (to me, but looked brand new and exactly like the AS Osprey dash he removed, except for the gauges/switches included and layout) AS dash panel with gauges pre-wired, etc. Since the gauge jumps to full when I turn the key, it's getting power. Just not showing levels.
So I can upload my original 6MB images to the gallery? I'll try that now.
Dan
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The gallery will size them down to 1024x768 automatically. Then follow the instructions in each forum (top posts of forum) and scroll to the part right after uploading and follow how to get them into your topic - it's very simple.
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It worked! Thanks, Rick.
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My electrician buddy who rewired it this week said the the 'pro' installer didn't properly ground the sending unit, as you guys suspected. The gauge still reads Full when the key is on, but that may be because the 45 gallon tank probably still has about 35 gallons of gas in it. Should it be showing that level or do I need to burn more to get the sender/gauge to start reflecting the actual fuel level? Is there any way to test it on the trailer?
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It should show some difference from full. How much is dependent on angle of boat on trailer and how close the bottom of the slide on the sender unit is to the bottom of the tank. On my hull I don't think I will ever run out of gas. When my gauge is showing 1/2 full its actually 2/3. I would rather have it this way as it gives me a nice reserve.
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Hm. Unless it was installed wrong, (it's a new gauge and sender) maybe it's still showing full because the boat is on the trailer on ground that is not exactly level?
If not, is there a way to test/adjust the float? Thanks for the idea and the input, Lewis.
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If not, is there a way to test/adjust the float? Thanks for the idea and the input, Lewis.
You could take it out and slide the ring along the shaft and watch the gauge. I spent some time with mine and made up a little chart for position relation to fuel quantity because I had too much time on my hands. I still put 99.9% of fuel estimation into my Flow Scan.
There is no adjustment to the float ring that I saw.
Good luck.
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Thanks, Bob. I'll give that a try.
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maybe it's still showing full because the boat is on the trailer on ground that is not exactly level?
Almost 100% guaranteed to be the case. Especially if your sender is towards the aft end of the tank and your trailer is inclined. :salut: Level her out or burn some fuel and see if the gauge works as it should before you tear back into her.
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Still no readings (see new post in Rebuilds forum). WEMA sender has been tested and it's working voltage-wise, but not registering on the gauge and am ready to try a new gauge. Any advice?
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Still no readings (see new post in Rebuilds forum). WEMA sender has been tested and it's working voltage-wise, but not registering on the gauge and am ready to try a new gauge. Any advice?
Sorry about my confusion but you're all over the place and it's difficult to follow.
You posted this.
One hang-up to the project is the fuel gauge, which when hooked to the brand new WEMA float still shows full when the key is on. We grounded it and then even removed the sender and slid the float up and down to test it and the gauge just stays pegged on full on the dash
Help me please.
Key off, fuel gauge reads empty, correct??
When you turn on the key, the fuel gauge pegs full, correct??
If so, the gauge is working. The sender creates resistance to that electrical flow via the sender wire. Higher when empty, lower when full (I think that's correct).
Is the sender wire from the tank to the gauge in good condition and,
Is the sender properly grounded?
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I'm deep into my 1999 Osprey 20 fuel system replacement project and my electrician buddy tells me that my new (last fall) WEMA sender, which he just pulled out of the tank for the second time to check out, is offering the right voltage to be triggering the fuel gauge on the new-to-me Osprey dash panel I got in as-new condition from the FLA salvage yard that is popular with members of this site. I have no reason to think the gauge is broken, but with the WEMA sending being new last fall, and my buddy saying that it's getting juice to the gauge and the gauge appears to be trying to register a fuel level, that I need to try a new gauge. So, is there a standard gauge that A'sport used that would match the others? Any other advice anyone can share is welcome!
Thanks!
Here's a photo of the gauge that may be broken and I want to try to match with a new one. Any ideas or sources?
Well, can't re-size it small enough (max 100 pix high is a bit conservative!), so I'll try to post in my gallery...
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Dan,
I combined your two posts from two different threads. Let's keep this problem under this thread.
Next, please use the Photo Gallery to post your pics. You can place your photo in the gallery (no size limit that I have encountered)
and then post to the thread. The gallery will re-size the photo to fit.
"How to" gallery directions are pinned in most forums and are scattered in an uncountable number of threads throughout the Forum. It's quite simple and while I mean no offense to a certain "formerly photo challenged" member of this Forum, even he has posted a dissertation on the ease of its use. :mrgreen:
Good luck.
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Thanks, Bob. You're gonna have to move another post then, which I just posted in the Electronics forum because I thought that was the right place for it: Do I need a WEMA gauge to match a WEMA sender? If so, THAT could be the problem!
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Based on advice read here, we removed a swing-arm style and replaced it with a WEMA sender in our 1999 Osprey's fuel tank, and are trying to make it work with a stock AS fuel gauge -- that was probably hooked up to/designed for use with a swing arm style sender. Do we need a special (WEMA?) gauge made for an electronic WEMA-style sender in order for the gauge to work? Ours just pegs at FULL and never varies when we turn the key.
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No, you can use your standard gauge. WEMA wiring instructions say, oddly enough, pink off the sender to ground, black to the gauge ("S" position). I've been installing WEMAs for years (we used them both at Stamas and at PL), always wired pink to pink, black to black.
You can swap leads and see if that brings the needle down to where you think the fuel level is. I just installed (2) new WEMAs on the Glacier Bay, when I pulled the old senders, the tanks were both almost slap full (owner was pleased!!!). Stabbed the tanks to get the depth, ordered the WEMAs, got them in, installed them in my traditional manner...and both gauges read just under full...
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Not sure what to do now. I ordered a new WEMA gauge yesterday because I thought that was what I needed, since the WEMA sender tests fine. But the fuel gauge in the dash can be used with the WEMA and is apparently good, based on what I read here: that if it goes to Full when the key is on, that means the gauge is fine. I'm not sure what else I can test/do...I guess I take the new WEMA gauge and hook it up and see if we get a reading.
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The way we check senders for function is to touch the ground to the sending wire, which is the highest level of resistance. That's why the gauge will peg to full (the gauge measures resistance to ground). So these are the 2 steps you need to take. Verify on the purple wire (ignition power) that you have 12V when the key is in the run position. This will tell you that the gauge is getting power. The sender does not function as a measure of voltage, but the fuel gauge is an electric gauge, hence it needs power.
Next verify that you have a "good" ground at the sender. Test for continuity between the sender ground and a known "good" ground (ground bus bar or neg batt term). Another thing I would do is test for continuity on the pink wire, from the back of the gauge to the sender...
One more thing. Ensure the gauge is wired correctly. There are 3 posts on the backside, labeled S, I, and G. Purple wire to I, pink wire to S, black wire to G. Do NOT mix up purple and pink, as this can render the sender useless...
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Just wanted to add my two cents.. really one cent. I replaced the stock sender in my 98 Osprey with a WEMA and it works great with the stock AQ fuel guage. No additional work needed other than attaching the wires. Good Luck!
B
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As I stated earlier, I've used WEMA senders with EVERYONE'S gauges! Teleflex, Faria, and the electronic ones, Smartcraft, Suzuki SMIS, and BRP I-Command. Never an issue...
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Daniel,
My last input.
Please go back to the beginning of this thread that you started and re-read each post. Note the same reoccurring suggestions for troubleshooting and look closely at the supplied photos. I think you will find that the wiring you are describing may be your problem, be it on the back of the gauge or defective between the gauge and sender.
It could very well be a defective sender or gauge but I'd bet (not much though :mrgreen: ) that the root of your troubles lies within the wiring. Also, look closely at your gauge face. It should have little "pegs" that delineates the full travel of the needle itself. These "pegs" are usually beyond the full and empty markings on the gauge face. In an earlier post in this thread I asked if the gauge "pegs" when the key is turned on. This is what I was referring to. The sender creates the resistance (as SB and others stated) that makes the needle "measure" within the marked area. Without that resistance present, the needle will (when new anyway) rest on the peg. Key off (no power to gauge, no resistance needed) Key on (power to gauge, no resistance from sender, gauge pegs past full).
Simple concept but sometimes hard to visualize.
Lastly, if you pull out your new panel or if you can see the back of the gauge as is, please post a photo, in this thread.
Good luck.
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Thanks for all the input, guys. I got the new gauge from WEMA today and will tackle the project tomorrow and will fill you in -- and take photos.
Dan
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Maybe I have missed it somewhere in this long thread. From what I have gleaned you turn on your key and the gauge reads full all the time. With the key on I would disconnect the pink sender wire from the sender and see what the gauge does. If the wiring is right and the gauge is not faulty it should drop to empty. If it does do that touch it to ground and it should peg to Full. If that checks out than your gauge and the wiring between the sender and the gauge are OK.
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I'll give that a try tomorrow. Thanks!
Dan
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Actually, he's trying that right now (my boat's at my electrician-buddy's place). Meanwhile, the question we have is, does the green sender wire need to go to the fuel filler ground AND the battery ground - or does it just need to go from the sender to the filler ground? Do all three need to be tied together -- the sender grounded to the battery AND the filler?
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To quote a fellow member (BA),
"Ground is ground"
OK then,
You'll want to keep the fill bond wire (green) connected to a ground. Often that bond is attached to the tank bond (on a metal tank) and attached yet again to a metal (usually bronze) sea cock. They all end up to ground either at the negative battery post, a ground buss or maybe even to the engine ground so....
Green "sender" wire? :scratch:
Your tank is poly, correct? No need for a tank dedicated bond (again green) but the sender does indeed need a ground. That could go to the battery post but in my case that ground wire (black) terminates at the ground buss up in the helm.
Photos.......please.
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Problem solved: apparently it was the fuel gauge itself that was bad, for when we hooked it up, the new WEMA gauge worked fine -- if showing fuel levels a little lower than they really are. What threw us was the faulty gauge showing full when the key was turned, allowing us to think it was working and it was the sender or wiring of same that was bad.
The Osprey's fuel lines and filter are replaced and working as well; we think that the problem might have been an air leak at the manual shut-off valve at the tank, which when removed allowed for fuel to reach the primer ball and the engine.
Thanks for all the input, guys!
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Glad that's over...
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LOL. Me too...
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Congrats Dan! :cheers: I am glad you identified the resolved the problem as a working fuel gauge is not underrated! I always tell myself that any project on my boat will never be easy and will always take twice as much time and three times the cost that is should normally be. :sunny: Good thing I love working on her and the guys here have been invaluable resource over the last year...
PS - I use photobucket to upload pics. It’s a free smart phone app that you can upload directly to from your phone. When you want to imbed the pics all you have to do is copy and paste the IMG link which photobucket provides and you are done.. Just another way to skin that cat.
Calm seas and tight lines!
Bruce
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Congrats Dan! :cheers: I always tell myself that any project on my boat will never be easy and will always take three as much time and five times the cost that is should normally be. :sunny: Good thing I love working on her and the guys here have been invaluable resource over the last year...
Calm seas and tight lines!
Bruce
FIFY Bruce... :roll:
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Having this site and you guys as a resource is worth gold. Thanks for all.
Dan
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Bob...
You crack me up! I am an eternal optimist... what can I say! :sunny:
BTW - My stock bait well / wash-down pump finally bit the dust yesterday when I was out fishing with my son.. Kinda glad it did - this weekend rather than next as I have several guys coming down for a weekend of offshore fishing... Replacement (shureflo) ordered. Found a decent deal online but I'm optimistic that the install will be smooth. Well optimistic but not holding my breath.. haha..
-B