Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => Flatback 22-2 Rebuilds => Topic started by: Callyb on November 19, 2012, 06:54:16 PM
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Hey everyone, yet another Flatback rebuild getting started. This one is a 1966 C&S Aquasport 22-2, Serial Number 232.
I picked the boat up earlier this year from just north of Worcester, Mass. She made the 1000 mile trip back home without incident and has treated me well so far in the few months of service she has provided, but definitely needs attention.
I figured she had been rebuilt at some point because the boat is actually in very good shape for her age, but after pouring over the resources in the forum, I have come to the conclusion that she is structurally original. I am very anxious to get the floor up and see what challenges await!
I plan on the "standard" rebuild, full transom, slimmer console, raise the floor 3"-4", Bob's Jackplate (due to budget constraints), and the dive door is staying (it is very functional/useful).
What I know so far:
1. The transom is gone. Like really gone. I can't believe the motor stayed on the boat.
2. The foam is waterlogged.
3. My wife is supportive of the project. :thumright:
4. I have an ample supply of beer. (combine with #3)
Well, how about some pics? Nothing too exciting so far, but I need to start somewhere. No pics of the motor coming off, but it was uneventful.
Here is the data tag...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/2012-07-26_13-43-26_195.jpg)
Today I derigged the console (what a disaster) and got the console removed. I also removed the gas tanks (still in the original location under the console).
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121119_143118.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121119_143108.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121119_144640.jpg)
All I can say is this rigging hole can kiss my.... :cyclopsani:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121119_143129.jpg)
And finally,
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121119_150849.jpg)
It will be cramped, but ya gotta due whatcha gotta due... Once I get the foam out I'll get the axles and springs off of the trailer and give myself some head room.
I'll keep the pictures coming...
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CAPITAL!
the foam should pull out easy...
the more rotten the transom the easier it is to dig out
once you get the deck and transom out, i recommend having the inside sandblasted saves alot of time sanding, had mine done for 300 bucks and only took a couple hours vs days sanding
cant wait to see more progress! :salut:
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I have the opposite going on with my boat, the transom is actually dry and solid after 40 years, just too many holes and I need to widen the scupper placement to accomodate the newer motors. So it'll be fun to get out.
I'm glued to your rebuild also since I'm down to the stringers now.
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Here is a link to another 22-2 rebuild in Texas a couple of years ago. Lots of great info on lamination schedules and problems encountered. Check out how he flipped his hull.
I would also build a cradle with casters so you don't get any flex once you start removing things. Plus it will be lower than the trailer while still able to move it around.
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14052 (http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14052)
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Perfect timing Lew - I will have to do the flipping pretty soon.
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Rebuilds are in the air these days, callyb that front loader sure came in handy.
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I guess you need two of those though.
BTW, good to see you back Scott, if even for a short time.
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Thanks Rick, I do love these rebuild threads, plan to do my own some day so i try to soak it all in.
I'm always around, may not post as much as I used to but I check in daily, home is home if you know what I mean.
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I know what you mean.
I have been in the bilge of my 230 and the stringers are HUGE compared to what I uncovered yesterday in my 170. I'm not sure I would have the nads to try this in the big boat - even though a few examples of how to do it exist here. A whole different animal from my 170 - if you are going to dive in let me know - I need to learn.
Speaking of diving......never mind. Water temp is 69 per http://isurus.mote.org/weather/newpass/Newpass_Weather.html
Unless you want to add a suit. I have a 3 mil shorty, still in the range. (I don't think you were actually thinking of diving but I could be wrong)
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I have been in the bilge of my 230 and the stringers are HUGE compared to what I uncovered yesterday in my 170. I'm not sure I would have the nads to try this in the big boat
Oh no me neither, I plan on getting a 170 down the road, that's what I was referring to, sorry I miss spoke.
I do like the Diver door on this 22-2 though :wink:
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Block the boat as close to the ground as possible, it will save you 1000's of steps
I used styro blocks, 2x4's and wood shims then a level to make sure everything was straight and true
Once the transom and floor are out of the boat she needs to stay true
I'm really enjoying seeing all these flatback rebuilds going on
Good luck
Capt matt
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Matt, how much did you raise your floor?
If you had to do it over, would it be less or more....relating to freeboard versus drainage.
Tx
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Aaron, I actually have a portable sandblaster on my tool list! I saw that on a few rebuilds on here and thought it was a pretty cool way to get the inside glass cleaned up. I have spent enough of my life grinding glass, so I'm gonna give that a try. Plus, I always wanted one. :mrgreen:
Rick, If you think the stringers in your 230 are big, i'll have to remember post pics of the ones in that 32' Unflite in the background. Those suckers are like two Redwoods in there. I'm glad that won't fit in the garage or I would have to work on it all winter instead of the flatback...
As far as the trailer/cradle goes I will pull the axles and springs after I get the floor up and foam out. The logic in this decision is it will be easier to toss the foam straight into the trailer outside as opposed to having the boat in the garage with the limited space issue I have going on. Once the foam is out I will essentially set the trailer on the floor and shim it level. Casters would not help, as I have a stone driveway, and there isn't enough room in the garage to have an advantage to them being there.
Matt/Scott, You guys both have awesome boats! Scott had just told me he raised his floor 1-1/2". I can't remember how much you raised yours Matt, when you get the chance I would appreciate it.
Thanks guys.
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Block the boat as close to the ground as possible, it will save you 1000's of steps
I used styro blocks, 2x4's and wood shims then a level to make sure everything was straight and true
Once the transom and floor are out of the boat she needs to stay true
I'm really enjoying seeing all these flatback rebuilds going on
Good luck
Capt matt
We are getting quite a few new members that own flatties. :thumleft:
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Cally I don’t know if this would interest you or not. But to get more head space. You may want to do what I did, but for a different reason. I bought those four caster dolly wheels from harbor freight. After getting the boat in the shop. I jacked up the trailer just high enough to remove the tires and rims. Then lowered, the hubs, down onto the dollies. That gave me the ability to move the boat side ways in my shop. It would give you some more head room as well the ability to move the boat and trailer a little if needed. The dollies I bought where cheap and worth getting for my purpose.
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Rasied my floor 5 inches, my drains are out the sides right before the stern cabinet wall.
Its about the right hieght as the boat drains are above the waterline unless I have a few big guys stand on the back.
I made the drain holes 11/4inch so I can use standard plugs to plug them when carrying lots of weight.
Pay attention too that the water drains back, that the front deck is higher than the stern deck.
I also put a crown of 1/2inch in the center of the deck so the water runs to the sides then out
Capt Matt
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First, congrats on starting the rebuild. Second, I want the Bertram next to it!
I know you asked Matt, but thought I would chime in: I raised my floor 1.5". It was convenient because I kept a small amount of the original floor around the edge of the hull, and when I put the new floor in I glassed 3/4" block to the old floor, then the new floor was 3/4" about that.
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Sorry I haven't been on in a few days, been pretty busy this past week. I don't have much picture worthy progress to show as a result... Got the floor out and the foam removed from the center two areas Maybe later tonight I'll get some pictures up along with some more commentary.
Raised my floor 5 inches, my drains are out the sides right before the stern cabinet wall.
Matt, Thank you for the info and your advice about the angle and crown on the floor. I appreciate it a bunch. So, in your opinion would 3 inches be a mistake, as in not enough? I'm certain I'll have more questions as this goes along.
I know you asked Matt, but thought I would chime in: I raised my floor 1.5". It was convenient because I kept a small amount of the original floor around the edge of the hull, and when I put the new floor in I glassed 3/4" block to the old floor, then the new floor was 3/4" about that.
LilRichard, I have read through your thread about 20 times (no kidding), any advice or input you want to throw in is cool with me. Your boat came out beautiful man!
First, congrats on starting the rebuild. Second, I want the Bertram next to it!
Thanks, and I wish it was a Bertram... It's actually a 1971 Uniflite 31. That one is my long term project which has now taken a backseat to the Aquasport. A great boat, an unbelievably seaworthy design but overkill for fishing the Great Lakes. The plan is to ship her down south somewhere once I get her done, a vacation home of sorts...
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Sorry about the lack of updates, I took a position on a different shift at work and it has been quite the adjustment so far. I guess what I'm saying is I am freaking tired.
So anyway, I've removed a good amount of the foam so far. Lots of water, lots of weight, lots of garbage bags full of crap. No real surprises so far though, which is a good thing. I am on the fence about removing the liner, it is in pretty good shape from what I have seen so far, just a few blisters from being saturated. It is bonded very well to the hull and I am leaning toward just reinforcing it / sealing it when I recap the stringers.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121121_181703.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121124_092237.jpg)
This is what leeched through overnight after pumping it out the day before...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121124_092418.jpg)
Hopefully I can get the rest out this morning and get it dried out. I would also like to get the trailer on the floor today and start blasting/cleaning the inside. We'll see how far I get, the boss is bugging me about getting Christmas light up so...
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I didn't have a liner in mine, so I don't have a real opinion... but if you keep it, how do you bond the floor to the hullsides? Do you trim part of the liner back? I wouldn't think that bonding the floor to the liner would provide as much strength as floor to hullsides... but like I said, didn't have the problem on mine.
Be very cognizant of the bonding issues with the stringers... mine were almost completely loose. Hopefully you will be much better off.
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I may not be using the correct terminology to describe what I have. Instead of individual stringers glassed to the hull, it is one continuous mold. All of the stringers are one piece. I did the best I could to show what I mean in the picture below.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/liner.jpg)
I am with you on making sure the bond is still there. Once i finish getting the foam out of the stringers I will be able to verify that whole situation.
Thanks.
Now....back to work. :|
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my hull is pretty much the same way, i found the stringers where almost completely delaminated from the "bait well" forward, and spots of delaminaton midship forward. i went ahead and cut the entire center stringer out.
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Ohhhh.... gotcha. I didn't look super close at the photos, I thought you meant it had an inside liner - on the inside of the hullsides. In one pic it looked like that because part was blue - thought that was the liner.
My stringers were the same as yours, they're one big piece dropped in and glued to the hull.
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Dont be afraid of going 3 inches plus when raising your deck, better the deck is too high than too low when done. I don't really see why anyone would save the old stringer system unless it was in really good shape. Seems like more work to defoam, re laminate and raise the old stringers than to build a new stringer system. By ripping out the old stringers it also allows you to re glass the inside of the hull before putting your new stringers in.
I had a factory liner in my boat and ripped it out as with a higher deck and different casting platform it needed more fabrication that it was worth.
Capt matt
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I don't really see why anyone would save the old stringer system unless it was in really good shape. Seems like more work to defoam, re laminate and raise the old stringers than to build a new stringer system. By ripping out the old stringers it also allows you to re glass the inside of the hull before putting your new stringers in.
I actually just got done having this same conversation with my wife. :lol: :lol: :lol:
There is much wisdom in what you are saying and I am leaning towards that now. I got all of the foam out from between the stringers and a cursory look at what is going on when it was wet, but now that it is starting to dry out it doesn't give me a good feeling. It appears to have a little disbonding from the hull. So, I may just pull it and start from scratch. It indeed does look like more trouble than it's worth. I'm going to take a look at it again tomorrow and see what's going on. I have no intentions of doing this again! :cheers:
Oh, Matt... I think we were watching you on youtube out on one of you charters catching monster tarpon. Do you have some on there?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121203_200153.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20121203_200251.jpg)
Talk to ya later,
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I have had clients film there tarpon catches but don't know what happened to the footage.
What did you dicide on your stringers?
Capt Matt
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Wow it has been a while...
Anyway, I have decided to replace the stringers. I am going to build new box stringers with the increased height built in. I haven't been particularly good at taking pics through the process, so not a bunch to show. But in any event, temps are supposed to be in the teens all week, so probable not going to have a lot of progress until it warms up a little.
I cut the stringers out in full length so I can make a mold for each so that I can hopefully drop them right in.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130114_194509.jpg)
This is pre-chiseling/grinding. Also, the outboard stringers/stiffeners are removed.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130114_194537.jpg)
I still have some cleaning up to do on the transom before it is ready to go back together.
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I cut the stringers out in full length so I can make a mold for each so that I can hopefully drop them right in.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130114_194509.jpg)
Looking good :salut:
You might be able to use those stringers as molds - cut the bottom flange off, cover in visquene and start laying your lam up.
BTW - how thick are those on the sidewalls and the top?
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You might be able to use those stringers as molds - cut the bottom flange off, cover in visquene and start laying your lam up.
BTW - how thick are those on the sidewalls and the top?
Actually, the logic in getting them out full length is so I can have a quick template so they new stringers should drop right in. Hopefully minimal trimming will be necessary when it comes time to drop the in.
They are 1/8" all around, but have a half round stiffener running on the inside on the top for additional support. As a side note the starboard stiffener was very inconsistent with the thickness, it varies from 1/8" to almost 5/16" in places. I guess the guy spraying was zoning out when he sprayed that side?
I'm planning on just reproducing the original design, but I always keep my eye out for a new way to skin a cat.
Talk to you later Rick.
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Thanks, I didn't think that the ones I pulled out were very thick. Never thought to measure them though. So maybe 3 layers of 17 or 1808 or both should bring it back to that thickness. So guys want 5 layers - that would be over 1/4". What is your plan for thickness?
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My plan is to do 4 layers of 1708 and then I'll lay the stiffener form in and put 2-3 layers of 1708 over it and run it down about 6 inches on each side. I hope that makes sense. As an alternative to the stiffener, I may just fill the stringers with a higher density foam, not 100% decided on that yet. Also, as a side note, I'm going to build the stringers with poly. I'm not a big fan of it, but that is a lot of epoxy! :eye:
I'll do my best to get some close-ups of the stringers when I get home from work today. Between my leg and the fact that it is only supposed to go to 18 today, I'm not going to make any promises. :lol:
How about you? After all, you are the inspiration for me deciding to go this route... :P
Stay warm!
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I may have missed it, but why aren't you reusing the old stringers? They appear to be in pretty good shape.
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You're colder there than we are here - been in the 20s since I got here on the 10th - seems I'm getting used to it now since I'm out in it a lot. Even walking around with my coat open :shock: - time to head home :cheers:
You're right - it's a lot of poly to make the stringers - but at 85 a 5gal vs 250 a 5 of epoxy.....
I will take the advice given by our Master Bldrs and Joel to secure them down with expoxy. I am also going to take the plunge and epoxy a new layer of 1708 inside the hull from sheer line to sheer line. I also want to fill in the deep prow as Eugene did on the FB - I have that cut out already and ready to put in. Everything above the floor will be poly.
Can you get pics of the stiffener you're talking about?
Take care of your leg man.
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Geez! It's been a while. :roll:
Well, I need to post some pics of my lack of progress, but that isn't why I'm on here today....
The C&S ad showed up today from ebay! :cheers:
I have to haul a$$ to town for a CPL class, but I will get it scanned and upload some pics as soon as I get the chance. :bounce:
Maple syrup is in full swing too, so the busy winter is continuing into spring!
Talk to you guys later.
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looking forward to some progress pics man!
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Finally did something boat related! At this rate I'll be done by 2018...
So I picked up a later model Merc cowling for a good price, so I figured I would church up the old Black Max. I still haven't received the new mount grommet grommets and tell-tale fittings, so I haven't mounted it yet. But I started some repainting of the motor parts. Once I get the parts to mount it I will do another thread in the engine section because the forward mound requires some holes drilled in the pan to accept it.
So, here is the only before pic I have of the top cowl. It was pretty scratched up and I couldn't save the paint.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/Hood_test_fit.jpg)
After prime...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130505_131027.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130505_131048.jpg)
Three coats of black, three coats of clear. Wet sanded with 1000 and 1500, then cut and polished.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130526_091345.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130526_091432.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130526_091254.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130525_114724.jpg)
I also put some paint on the lower unit. I didn't take nearly as much time with it...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130517_222053.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/20130517_222042.jpg)
Well, I finally had some porn to add to the forum.... :cheers:
Everyone have a good weekend! :drunken: :drunken: :drunken:
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Sweet paint job, Carl! Now your goal is to get that much reflection in your boat hull!
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Thanks Craig!
I can only hope to get that kind of finish on the hull, I think that may be a tall order though... :lol:
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Sweet! Gotta love those black Merc Cowls.
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Good lookin'!! :lol:
Did you use the same procedure on the LU'S?
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No, on the lower unit I just did a light sand and shot some (cheap) acrylic enamel on it, mixed with hardener for a little more durability and gloss. The upper and lower cowls got the good stuff, some two stage urethane.
I was originally going to buy the Phantom Black Merc paint, but then I found out it is just a single stage enamel.
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I am tempted to buy the current style decals instead of the style (1999-2004) decals that actual go with it. I would like some opinions, if you guys wouldn't mind. I guess I don't know if it would be cheesy or not to put the 2013 stickers on it?
1999-2004 decals:
(http://garzonstudio.com/i/mercury-2004-150-saltwater-decal-set-blue.png)
2013 decals:
(http://garzonstudio.com/i/mercury-2013-150-hp-optimax-proxs-decal-set.png)
Thanks in advance!
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Personally, I like the look of the "older" style blue on black but I'm not a Merc owner.
Both will look good on the fresh cowling :thumleft:
Good luck.
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Several years ago, Mercury was offering retro decal sets for V6's that wer used on inline 6's in the late 60's to early 70's colors and font that were smokin hot. I'll see if they are still offered. It would be a very nice combination for the older hull with a newer engine. I would avoid the cookie cutter look of the last 10+ years and do something unique to complement your restoration.
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Several years ago, Mercury was offering retro decal sets for V6's that wer used on inline 6's in the late 60's to early 70's colors and font that were smokin hot. I'll see if they are still offered. It would be a very nice combination for the older hull with a newer engine. I would avoid the cookie cutter look of the last 10+ years and do something unique to complement your restoration.
That is a good idea :salut:
It may be these folks have such a product:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9407 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9407)
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Yes that is a good idea Fitz! :salut: :salut: Though I have to also agree with Bob. I do love the look of the blue graphics from those last 13ish years.
So, a quick google search and if ound these two styles that I really think I could work with to build a custom decal set.
(http://johnsmcintoshvintagemercuryoutboard.com/images/ImagesforPages/Stickers/stickers-001.jpg)
(http://johnsmcintoshvintagemercuryoutboard.com/images/ImagesforPages/Stickers/stickers-002.jpg)
To base the theme off of something like that would be absolutely unique. I suppose once we bounce some ideas around I can get in touch with Southern X and see what can be worked out.
The noodle is working now!!!! :afro:
EDIT:
Then again I just found this pic. Sorry, but it's too big and I don't have time to resize right now. http://www.woodyboater.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Whalervintage-motor-look.jpg
I think that is a very cool look too.
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That is hot Carl...Farl, is this the one you were thinking about?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Whalervintage-motor-look.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7388&title=whalervintage-motor-look&cat=500)
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These guys are the bomb for classic Merc decals:
http://stores.ebay.com/Phantom-Decal-FX ... 7675.l2563 (http://stores.ebay.com/Phantom-Decal-FX?_trksid=p2047675.l2563)
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Thanks for the link, that is gold for ideas! :salut:
My wheels are really turning now... I'll have to check my photoshop skills and see what I can come up with. This idea may just be crazy enough to work. :shock: 8)
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:cheers:
Carl, the original decals on my Merc twins were an ugly, jack 'o lantern orange. All peeled off and nasty. To heck with the "correct" year color...I was looking for "pretty". So went with the blue decals to go with what I had in mind for the boat.
They say EFI. "It ain't a lie if you believe it" :mrgreen:
You're in the fun part of the build....Enjoy :lol: :salut:
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Carl,
When I recently bought my 2002 Merc they had just painted everything and had the red decals on it. I asked them to install the blue decals. I am a sucker for blue.
By the way your Merc looks great. :mrgreen:
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Well, my photoshop skills are rusty...
But here is what I'm thinking, just maybe not yellow. Obviously I'll have to change it from a 100hp decal also.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/T2eC16R_UE9s3wCMf2BR_-P5w2K_60_57.JPG)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/retro_cowling.jpg)
I'm still rolling ideas around in my head, so throw any suggestions out there.
Hell, you can even let me know if you think it looks stupid... :lol:
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Carl, after I ordered the ones for the Mercs...I found out there is a guy here in town that makes anything you want, anyway you want.
So if you want to do something custom, I'll be happy to put you in touch with him. Don't have a clue as to pricing, but may be worth a call to find out.
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Thanks Scott, I'll keep that in mind. I would like to keep my money local (as I assume a lot of us do), but if I can't find anyone around here I am open to going wherever I would need to go to get a quality product. Plus I still may tweak it a little before I make a move.
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The graphics on the on the Whaler Merc are 1971. My favorite Merc colors were 1968 to 1971. The combination of red and silver. To me the hottest graphics were the "Merc" '69 super BP 125 or the later early '70's 1500 XS. Those were some bad ass graphics on bad ass engines.
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Or if you really want get nutty, check out the mid '70s Twister decals. That was the full race inline 6, 99 cu in 240 hp @ 9000 rpm! The baddest in line ever built!
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Google images for "65 anniversary mercury 200 efi". The graphics are retro, made to look like the old three piece cowlings. :thumright:
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Google images for "65 anniversary mercury 200 efi". The graphics are retro, made to look like the old three piece cowlings. :thumright:
Yep,
That's the one! I saw one at Bass Pro shops some years ago. Very Hot!
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Google images for "65 anniversary mercury 200 efi". The graphics are retro, made to look like the old three piece cowlings. :thumright:
Yep,
That's the one! I saw one at Bass Pro shops some years ago. Very Hot!
Wish I had seen it prior to putting the new decals on mine. That retro look is super cool!
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http://cdn-0.psndealer.com/e2/dealersit ... 200efi.jpg (http://cdn-0.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/images/newvehicles/2003_586_200efi.jpg)
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So there you go Carl, vintage decals made for your V6 bucket cowl! You will be one of a kind on that old flatty
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So there you go Carl, vintage decals made for your V6 bucket cowl! You will be one of a kind on that old flatty
(http://cdn-0.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/images/newvehicles/2003_586_200efi.jpg)
Good Lookin' :salut:
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Double post...
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There wasn't much going on at work this week, so I took the a few days off to get some work done on the boat. I didn't make a lot of progress, but anything is better than nothing. :D
Removed the outer stringers
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130612_180547.jpg)
Finished grinding the last of the old core from the transom skin. The original core was 3 layers of 1/2 inch ply with mat in between each layer.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130612_180611.jpg)
Found this big old disappointment once I got grinding. It runs the entire length of the bottom of the transom. Overall the entire outer skin is very fatigued and in bad shape. I will have to go with a few extra layers of glass to build the strength back up.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130612_180646.jpg)
It felt nice to finally do something constructive instead of destructive. As a side note, I am not thrilled about using marine fir plywood, but it is all I could source locally... The fir will have so much glass on it that I'm not really worried about checking, it's just really heavy. I am using 2 layers, 3/4 inch ply.
From the bow. (Note: Pain reliever from bending over in the foreground... :drunken: )
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130613_190042.jpg)
The arch on the transom is 2 inches higher in the center. I still have to do some trimming and fine tuning, but I am very happy to be at this point.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130613_190018.jpg)
Another shot of the new core. Also, you can see the section of the cap I cut out to accommodate the top of the enclosed transom. I removed 17 inches because (a) it looked right, (b) 16 inches of flat usable surface seemed to be enough space after I continue the lines of the cap around the fwd portion of the transom cap.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130613_190118.jpg)
As a note to myself and anyone else who may be interested I have about 80 hours into this so far, not including time spent pondering and thinking... :lol:
Well, now I'm off to clean all of the dust up and make some more. :shock:
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Looking nice Carl!!! Make sure and leave enough room around the outer edge so you can get a nice fillet in there. Are you using poly?
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Looks good!!
Are you planning on adding the glass forward like Eugene and Rick did to prevent puddling? (In the forward bilge)
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Thanks Guys! :salut:
Looking nice Carl!!! Make sure and leave enough room around the outer edge so you can get a nice fillet in there. Are you using poly?
Copy that. I have a few hard spots where I need to trim it in a little yet. I'm shooting for a 1/4 to 3/8ths gap all around. I'm going with epoxy for the entire build. I just don't have enough trust in the poly to get a good bond, plus since I'm using wood and not a synthetic I really need the waterproof properties of the epoxy. (Not trying to be inflammatory and I know poly takes a long time to soak water, just not a big poly fan...)
Looks good!!
Are you planning on adding the glass forward like Eugene and Rick did to prevent puddling? (In the forward bilge)
Yes! That is an awesome tip that Eugene shared and I will definitely be doing it that way.
Also, I thought I would share these pics too. I forgot about it actually, but the boat came with an original fish box! I don't know how many of these are still around? I would guess not many because it weighs about 150lbs!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130614_112204.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130614_112225.jpg)
Talk to you later!
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Carl,
Are you contemplating integrating the "Bug Bucket" into your rebuild?
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Not going to be part of the build. If I can reclaim it from the wife I would like to just refinish the top and make it into a fine piece of man cave furniture. I'm serious, it is really heavy...
I guess the only practical use for it on the boat is ballast. :shock: But maybe that was the intention?
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I have never seen one before. It would make an interesting piece of furniture. :thumright:
Good luck with the rebuild.
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Looking good Carl. I like the curvature of the top of your transom. I just finished glassing my transom in today. Mine is a little over an inch higher in the center than the sides, so a little more subtle than yours. I think both look pretty good.
I will be doing the same thing as you as far as the transom enclosure, but I haven't decided whether to continue the curb all the way around or stop it about 4' - 6' forward of the transom :scratch: . The transom deck will also be a seating area, and I'm afraid the curb might be uncomfortable... But I'm also leery of the structural impact of removing it from the area of the gunnel that people will step on when boarding the boat. I suppose with adequate coring and bracing it will be ok.... Or I could just leave it on the gunnels all the way to the transom. Decisions, decisions....
Anyway, keep up the good progress!
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That's an interesting thought. Just took a second look at Carl's pic's....that gunnel curb looks good running all the way back.
On the other hand, as it will be a gathering spot of sorts, a seating area...good on thinking it through.
Can't wait to see what you all decide :salut:
Absolutely the best part of the build is now....thinking, contemplating, input, planning, and decision making. If I had the bucks...I'd do another one in a skinny minute :wink:. I miss it.
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I will be doing the same thing as you as far as the transom enclosure, but I haven't decided whether to continue the curb all the way around or stop it about 4' - 6' forward of the transom . The transom deck will also be a seating area, and I'm afraid the curb might be uncomfortable... But I'm also leery of the structural impact of removing it from the area of the gunnel that people will step on when boarding the boat. I suppose with adequate coring and bracing it will be ok.... Or I could just leave it on the gunnels all the way to the transom. Decisions, decisions....
For what it's worth, I have sat on/leaned on/stepped on the gunnels and never thought it was uncomfortable. My decision to continue it around the transom is just my preference on aesthetics. However, I completely understand your thoughts on sitting on the transom...
I think the structural impact of removing it from the gunnels would be significant, and I would highly recommend supporting it if you decide to remove it.
Here are a few pictures I have saved in my favorites. I'm not sure if you have seen them or not in your searching, but I'll post them anyway.
Transom with the "curb" continued.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/36DSC00387.jpg)
The "curb" going to the transom
(http://photos.imageevent.com/jodi/theproject/websize/DSC04488.JPG)
Removed a few feet forward
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//526/363aqua-sport-hh005.jpg)
Gunnel supports.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/jodi/theproject/websize/DSC04370.JPG)
I don't know if the pics help, but I thought I would offer them up. They are worth 1,000 words, right? :lol:
Absolutely the best part of the build is now....thinking, contemplating, input, planning, and decision making.
I agree, plus all of the chit work starts to fade into memories.
I'd do another one in a skinny minute . I miss it.
Scott... You are a sadist... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Talk to you later. :salut:
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Aweome Carl! Those pictures are great. Each one looks good, so it really comes down to personal preference.
Thanks for posting these in one place!
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I'd do another one in a skinny minute . I miss it.
Scott... You are a sadist... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ditto ^^^
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Once again I had a little bit of down time in between other projects, so I decided to work on the console. As I have stated before (and again, I apologize), I am horrible at making sure I take pictures while I am working...
So, I made the decision to modify the existing console to my liking. Why? Some romantic vision of keeping as much of the original parts with the boat as possible. Somewhat ridiculous I guess, but it is what it is.
Of, course I didn't take any "before pics", but I cut 6 inches out of the center of the console to narrow it down to 30 inches. This will leave 24 inches to the gunnel on either side, which will be closer to 20 inches after the T-top or tower is installed. Much more user friendly however.
Console with six inches removed. I glassed it back together with the following schedule; 1 layer of 6 inch followed by 1 layer of 12inch 1708 both inside and out.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130912_150423.jpg)
Even though I didn't core the console yet, I figured I might as well cover some of the holes up. So I used some 12 inch 1708 and covered them up. Just one layer for now, I didn't want the lamination to get too stiff until I core it.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130912_150414.jpg)
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I let the epoxy cure up overnight and then started working on an electronics box to add on to the top of the console. The inspiration for this setup is based on Miss D's console (thank you Scott for the dimensions :salut: ) Here is what I came up with... Please keep in mind that the steering wheel is just a 13.5 inch one I have laying around for mock-ups....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130913_181435.jpg)
Once I got the box trimmed to my liking, I set out to glue it together. It is important to leave a space in between panels so that you can get the resin in between them and have a good solid structure. Oh, and of course pre-wet before fillets/glassing :!: I use 16d nails for spacing. They are cheap and about 3/16ths of an inch, just perfect for the job. I used cabosil for thickening the resin at approximately 1:1-1.25 by volume, basically a thick (but not dry) peanut butter consistency.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130914_152514.jpg)
Also, not that I took a picture of it :roll: , but I use packing tape on the opposite side of the fillet to keep the resin from being forced to far out of the void between the panels.
Notice in the right corner of the picture, the tape also helps fill the chitty cut job I did and in turn will mean less fairing.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130914_220909.jpg)
And another pic.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130914_220935.jpg)
One more thing, it working wet on wet makes quite the difference in a laminate. For starters it's just plain old easier, and turns out better looking... But the important thing is that the layers are chemically bonded instead of just mechanically bonded. Big difference in the end. So, I used some more 12 inch 1708 to tape the panels together. Just 1 layer on the inside and 1 on the outside, then I covered the entire thing in a single layer of DB1700. And of course I didn't take a picture of that...
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Here is a pic of the inside tape.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130914_155725.jpg)
More to come later, that was all I had time for, for now! :salut:
Because of the router issues the site is having, I had to break this up into four posts.
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Well, I have to break this one up also, it looks like the site still won’t let me do a large post…
I got some more work done on the console. It's kinda starting to look like something now...
I glassed the electronics box to the top...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130918_182131.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130918_182212.jpg)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20130918_182224.jpg)
It just didn't look right though, something was off aesthetically. After many beers I figured it out! :drunken: The original raised portion at the bottom was throwing it off. I decided that it must go, but I needed to support it first.
I am doing the toe kick (ala Scott and Rick's consoles), so I figured this would be a good time to put the floor in it.
It is 3/4 marine Fir.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131003_154157.jpg)
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Glue applied. The lower left it the part I cut out (the raised panel on the sides of the console).
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131003_185422.jpg)
I apparently forgot to get pics of the panels cut out, but you can see in these pics what I did.
A scrap piece of OSB wrapped in plastic so that I had something to glass to.
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The outside.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_151301.jpg)
The Inside.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_151320.jpg)
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It made a world of difference to me. I just wish I would have stretched the plastic better... :roll: I left some wrinkles in it.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131005_151955.jpg)
I also mixed up some fairing compound, as you can see. Looks like me and the long board will soon be reaquainted. :?
This is the last of a multi segment post, the site is giving fits for large posts...
Until next time.
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Cutting that ridge off made quite a difference in the appearance. Could you have re-used what you cut off, trimmed it and tied it back in? Either way you have what you want now :salut: What did you make the fairing compound from?
Yeah, those wrinkles...... :roll:
I'm not going to put a floor in my console, haven't seen a need.
One thing I did was cut off material the height of the toe kick, from the total height of the console. Then added the toe kick and ended up with the original height again.
Keep up the good progress. My wife talked me into taking a weekend off from working on the boat.
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Another multi-segment post...
Damn! I forgot I want to put a few pics on here too to go along with what I was trying to explain to Capt. Koz about wetting glass away from the part. So, here it is.
After cutting out the sides of my console I had to replace the removed material. After figuring out the thickness I needed, I determined 3 layers of 1708 would be just enough to match the original thickness of the console glass (approx. 1/8")
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_151345.jpg)
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I usually cut out multiple pieces at a time, so I ALWAYS lable them.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_151445.jpg)
Then I weigh them. I think this part is most under appreciated, but resin is expensive and ideally the glass should be a 50/50 by weight of glass and resin, so why not know exactly how much resin you should be using for a given piece of glass.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_1516421.jpg)
BTW, this small scale is just a postal scale.
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After I have the weight of my glass, I always write down my ratio (for epoxy) on the glass. I find that it helps me from making mistakes, and God knows I need all the help I can get in the department.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_1522001.jpg)
Now I mix my resin. In this case I am using 3:1 Epoxy. Note that I mixed a little extra because I had a (very) small area I needed to prime before I got the glass in.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_1602451.jpg)
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It'll be interesting to see if the 2oz resin per sq ft for 1708 ballpark falls within your method's calculations.
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Now, on a plastic sheet I do the wet out. Again, keep in mind that this is 3 layers of 1708...
I prefer a squeegee and laminate roller, but you can use whatever you are comfortable with.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_161639.jpg)
Work the resin in until you have no (or very, very little) loose resin, it will all be in the glass.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131004_161652.jpg)
Again as I have said before, the key to helping you resin working time has a lot to do with getting it out of the pot as fast a possible. The reason is to keep the heat down.
I hope this helps!
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It'll be interesting to see if the 2oz resin per sq ft for 1708 ballpark falls within your method's calculations.
Yes, actually. 1 yard of 1708, 50 inches wide is 12.5 square feet which weighs 25 oz (17 oz of biax and 08 oz of mat per yard). 12.5 x 2 = 25, which equals 2.0 ounces of resin per square foot. The reason I prefer to measure is because it is sometimes difficult to figure out your exact square footage of a given piece and that means wasted resin. Please don't take it the wrong way Rick, I don't mean anything other than I just prefer the way I do it.
What did you make the fairing compound from?
It is US Composites fairing blend. Honestly Quick fair is my prefered fairing compound because it sands so easy, but I have about half a bucket of this stuff, so why not use it up? I mean who doesn't like sanding? :puker:
As far as the console height goes, I really like the look of a higher console so I will be adding the height and will be at 48 inches high once it is all said and done.
Talk to you later. :salut:
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You gave us exactly what we needed - a comparison and both seem to be equal. Gives everyone choices. Thanks.
So, some questions - do you pour the batch on top of all 3 layers and work it through or do it one layer at a time and stack it up? When done, do you lay all 3 layers on the area at once or peel it apart and lam them one at a time?
Still learning here. :salut:
Only reason I'm keeping my console the same height is so I don't have to buy another cover for the boat.
Looks good :thumleft:
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It is US Composites fairing blend. Honestly Quick fair is my prefered fairing compound because it sands so easy, but I have about half a bucket of this stuff, so why not use it up? I mean who doesn't like sanding? :puker:
I know I'm going to have a lot of it :shock:
So is their blend a powder you mix with your resin? I can't use any epoxy based fairing compounds because I'm going to gelcoat so I might have to create my own - I heard 50% talc, 30% balloons and 20% wood flour is a nice easy mixture to sand.
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So, some questions - do you pour the batch on top of all 3 layers and work it through or do it one layer at a time and stack it up? When done, do you lay all 3 layers on the area at once or peel it apart and lam them one at a time?
I wet them out one at a time. However, after the first layer I wet out the next on top of the first and so on. As I add layers I use a laminate roller before I add resin to the top (dry) layer to get any excess resin pushed out from between the layers. Then I will add resin to that layer and work it in and repeat the process again. Once all of the layers are wet out I roll them entire lamination up (on the larger pieces I'll roll from both ends so that I can work from the middle out) and place it as one piece.
I hope that makes sense... :scratch:
Also, I posted this link over in Capt. Koz's thread. It is time lapse, so there is some key parts missing. It may help supplement my explanation though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-2eUZ4qQps
So is their blend a powder you mix with your resin?
Yes. And also I forgot that you are doing polyester... :oops: Anywhere that you are not going to gelcoat you can use epoxy based fairing compounds. The issue is poly not sticking to epoxy very well, not the other way around.
Good conversation going Rick. Thank you :!: :salut:
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Mucho clean! Do those sandpaper discs youre using have the plastic film on the back you peel off before sticking to the pad? Those little round pieces of plastic (folded in half) work great for dragging fairing compound over outside radii like you've got on the console. Kinda tricky but....
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Mucho clean! Do those sandpaper discs youre using have the plastic film on the back you peel off before sticking to the pad? Those little round pieces of plastic (folded in half) work great for dragging fairing compound over outside radii like you've got on the console. Kinda tricky but....
Thank you DW. Unfortunately, I have hook and loop discs. Anywhere that I can, I prefer to bulk up the fairing compound on the corners and go over it with the router with a round over bit. On the places I can't get with the router, I have an assortment of quartered pvc pipes that I use for shaping and sanding.
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This link is a very good write-up for installing through hull fittings. I figured I would post it here for all of us, but also so I don't loose it.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/backing_blocks&page=1
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Looking real nice :salut:
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I am having a hard time deciding how to do my stringers and would like some input from you guys please.
First off, I am going to install new trapezoid stringers, only I am raising the sole height. What I am on the fence about is if there will be any ill (ie. stress) effects from not keeping the trapezoid. What it really boils down to is the ease of building my molds. I still have the stringers that i could just use as a template (and are junk) and it would be easier just to add the height by just putting a square on top of the original shape. What I am worried about is the concentration of stress at the transition from the square (top) portion to the slanted sides of the trapezoid.
The green represents the additional height.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/new_stringers1.jpg)
Thanks in advance!
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Keep the trapezoid shape. I agree that the "notch" at the transition could be a weaker area. Are you planning on going something like Rickks method? That seemed to work quite well!
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Carl why not just add to the bottom of the old stringer to build up the form? Couple pieces of Formica glued to the bottom of the old stringers to give you the height you want a should not be to hard yeah?
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Carl,
I had that exact same question a few weeks ago. The recommendation I got from Eugene Sun was to keep the trapezoid shape. I ended up making molds for the "extension caps" of my stringers (I am raising them about 3").
Craig
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Id keep the trapezoid continuous. Easier to make for sure. Id probably just use a 2x6 for the bottom of the mold (top of stringer) and then rip your bevels down some plywood to get the trap shape and screw right to the 2x....
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Thank you guys for your responses. :salut: I will keep the trapezoid shape.
slvrlng, Rick's stringers are what made me decide to go this route. I agree his came out super deluxe. The difference is I plan on making mine ona male mold. My logic in this is I can build the molds to the hull shape and have less trimming (hopefully none) on the backside. Another option I am toying with is pouring the foam for the stringers in the hull and using the foam for the mold. Not 100% sure about that yet...
Edit: If I go with pouring the foam first, the lamination will be like this. It gets rid of the taping.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/stringer_lam.jpg)
dburr, That would be a very simple solution. Thanks!
DW, That is pretty much what I had planned on, wrapped in plastic.
Carl,
I had that exact same question a few weeks ago. The recommendation I got from Eugene Sun was to keep the trapezoid shape. I ended up making molds for the "extension caps" of my stringers (I am raising them about 3").
Craig
Craig, Capt Matt had also recommended 3 inches... I had not planned on going that high, but that seems to be the magic number. Did Eugene give you that number or does that seem to be what it takes to keep the cockpit self draining with an offset motor, livewell, etc.?
Thanks again guys!
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Fellas,
Spoke with Eugene regarding flatback deck height, etc. Here is his input.
The deck height should be 3.5 inches above original in order to self bail. That assumes a closed transom with porta-bracket and a 175 etc. four stroke. They performed inertia/fulcrum/weight calculations to arrive at that number.
He also advises that the fuel tank be positioned well forward. On Shipoke's rebuilds the front portion of the tank extends into the area under the original forward casting deck.
Hope this helps :salut:
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I does, and thank you Scott. :salut:
But...now I am second guessing my numbers for CG, and I found it somewhere at some point that the displacement PPI on these hulls is 330lbs. I had calculated that 2 inches would be enough to maintain the self bailing feature, which I recalculated and I admit I screwed something up on that one... I agree with the 3.5 inch number. Thank you and Craig for bringing that to my attention or I wuold have had a major OOPS on my hands.
The question I have now is, what CG should I be shooting for? The best I can get 16.5 feet (the datum being the bow). Is this going to be acceptable, or do I need to keep shuffling stuff and crunching numbers?
I really regret not doing an actual CG before I pulled the boat apart, at least I would have had a reference to go from.
Thanks in advance.
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Eugene made a point which stood out. The transom being closed adds weight. especially with a wide cap on top. Then you have the bracket, then the engine a decent ways off the back in comparison to an open transom. Plus the weight of an optional power pole, tabs, pumps, etc.
He also said, as has Matt, the tank needs to be forward to give the bow the ability to bite a chop. You can always raise the bow with the engine trim.
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Carl,
I got my deck height from looking at what others have done and advice they have given, but it was also driven by the height of my fuel tank. 3" is a number that seems comfortable, and the more I think about it, the better I feel about not going lower. Plus I am going with a 3/4" deck, compared to about a 1/4" thick original deck (no wood surprisingly), so I will end up right around 3.5".
Is it going to be enough to keep it self-bailing? I don't know for sure. I must admit that I haven't approached this with a calculator. I have been mostly going on advice...the tank is a bit forward (but not under the casting deck), and I am moving the console a little bit forward as well. I will design in a little flexibility so that I can shift the batteries from under the console to under the casting deck if I need more weight forward.
Good luck!
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Thanks Craig, I'll take lucky over good anyday. :lol:
Eugene, if you have any advice I would really appreciate it. I have searched the net and I can't find a reference to where the LCG should be for level trim at rest.
Basically, here is where I am at.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/LCG.png)
I don't know where I should be and I would like some help from some one with experience with these hulls.
Thank you :!: :salut:
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Get the fuel tank as far forward as the v in the bow will allow, my tank is only about 6-8inches tall
Remember too the tank will not always be full of fuel for ballast
I have 5 batteries under my console ( 3 trolling motor, 2 starting)
When I have 3 or more passangers on board I put the plugs in the deck drains, if you have a few people standing on the stern it will sit with water on deck, with no one on board the drains are 2-3 inches above water line.
I built new stringers 3 inches taller add to that roughly 1 inch thick deck so it's about 3.5-4 inches taller than stock
As far as transom weight goes the old transom was about 200 pounds the new one with cap maybe 75 pounds (coosa) it's more about balancing the set back with the porta bracket.
Basically a few inches either way with the console is not going to make much difference, it's not like we are out setting speed records in our flat bottomed classics. These boats don't respond to trim like regular boats, trim tabs are your friend!
Don't over think it
Capt Matt
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Don't over think it
You are correct, I have a bad habit of doing that. It also helps to not be half hammered when doing math...
I was out doing measurements in the boat and it dawned on me that I totally effed up my math. The boat is not 44 feet long... See below. This makes me feel much better. My LCG crisis is over. Well I'm done doing math for the day, so I'm cracking a cold one.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//666/Boat_LCG_calc.jpg)
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Got a love/hate thing with spread sheets.. When things look really bad there always seems to be a cell that wasn't grabbed by the dadblag formula... :shock: :oops:
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to throw your math off even more, keep in mind that usually the motor brackets add some floatation to the equation. If you have one built to specs you can have them go right down to the drain plug. Im not sure if you can get enough floatation out of it to counter the leverage of moving the motor back 26 to 30 inches but it would have to be taken into consideration. I guess that would be a good question for the bracket manufacturer. I would think it would also depend on how submerged the bracket is? How much heavier at the transom is a 400 lb motor moved 26-30 inches out? The numbers will drive you nuts.
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When things look really bad there always seems to be a cell that wasn't grabbed but the dadblag formula...
It is even more embarrassing when you publish your bad math on the interwebs... :oops: :lol:
I would think it would also depend on how submerged the bracket is? How much heavier at the transom is a 400 lb motor moved 26-30 inches out? The numbers will drive you nuts
I don't know if it is the correct way to do it :scratch: , but I would add the weight of the bracket and the motor, identify it as one unit, and subtract the expected displacement of the bracket. I would then use that number as the weight hanging off of the transom.
It's not that hard to set up, but I could email the spreadsheet if you would like.
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Cally,
Your approach is correct except that you also would need to find your center of gravity for the engine and bracket "unit" such that the calcs can properly address the leverage associated with the full install aft of the existing transom. :salut:
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^^^^^
Eugene mentioned the same. With the setback, came in around #675 with Porta-bracket if remember correctly.
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Ryan and Scott, Thank you both very much for the correction. I just recalculated it and I am golden. :D The LCG drops right in between were I am planning on setting the console and and leaning post livewell. Makes me very happy.
EDIT: As of right now I am planning on using a 12 or 14 inch Bob's jackplate, unless I find a good deal on a used 17" porta-bracket.
Now I can't wait for my next order of supplies to show up so I can get something appreciable done. I purposely have not scheduled any side work beyond next weekend so that I can hopefully have the boat back together by the time the ice is gone.
Thanks again guys! :salut: :salut: :salut:
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EDIT: As of right now I am planning on using a 12 or 14 inch Bob's jackplate, unless I find a good deal on a used 17" porta-bracket.
Interesting you mention this. I was looking online at a 12" Atlas jackplate the other day. I also would prefer a 17" porta bracket, but man they are pricey. The jackplates are not cheap either, but they are quite a bit less $$$ than the porta bracket. Do you know if these larger jackplates would allow the motor to tilt up fully without hitting the transom?
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Craig, by my measurements with the Mercury 10" inches "should" make it, but that was measured before I did any work on the transom. I'm am airing on the side of caution and going with the bigger setback.
Also, this is going to be my first experience with a hydraulic jackplate. Is one brand actually better than the other? I have searched the internet, but there is kind of a Chevy, Ford, Dodge thing going on. Any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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With a regular jack plate and a full transom I don't think your motor will trim all the way out of the water
Capt Matt
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Carl,
I don't have any experience with jackplates either. I have heard many good things about Bob's jackplates, but I haven't heard much either way on the Atlas one. One difference is that Bob's has the pump mounted inside the boat, while the Atlas has it mounted within the jackplate itself. This may make the Atlas easier to install, but I'm not sure I like the pump exposed to the elements like that, especially in salt water.
I never looked into the jackplates before, mainly because I didn't think you could trim up the motor all the way with a full transom, as Capt. Matt suggests. But I honestly didn't think you could get them in 12 or 14 inch setbacks :shock: . Heck, the bigger jackplate is only 3" shorter than the smaller porta bracket. I bet a quick call to Bob's Machine Shop could get this answered.
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I didn't think you could trim up the motor all the way with a full transom, as Capt. Matt suggests
I don't think we will get full tilt out of them, but enough to get the motor out of the water. Again, I did all of my measuring when the motor was on the old transom, but I should be able (with the merc cowling) to get beyond the trim stage and about half way into the tilt stage. To make sure I don't crunch anything I am going to adjust the stop on the tilt.
The real attraction to the porta vs. a jack plate is the porta's have double the verticle travel.
I suppose it will be February before I really need to have made a decision, hopfully I will find a used porta between now an then, because at almost $900 more the jack plate will win.
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Think of the porta bracket as if you had to buy a bracket and a jack plate.
It does not seem so expensive then lol
Look for a used mercury para lift too, often see them used basically a porta bracket that runs on a mercury trim motor.
Capt Matt
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Did anything ever happen with the console arch you had at the beginning? I would definitely be interested in that if its still lying around.
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Think of the porta bracket as if you had to buy a bracket and a jack plate.
It does not seem so expensive then lol
I know, I know.... :lol: Time will tell, but I'll have to bite the bullet and submit a budget extension request to the Ministry of Finance. Not something that goes over well. :shock:
Did anything ever happen with the console arch you had at the beginning? I would definitely be interested in that if its still lying around.
Tom, that "arch" was a P.O.'s attempt at.............Hell, I don't know what it was for? It is just a few chunks of schedule 40 aluminum tube welded together. It's still here and you are very welcome to it, but I don't know if it would be worth the shipping cost. It might be cheaper to get the materials and build one, even if you had to pay someone to weld it for you.
Let me know if you still want it, you can have it.
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YEAH :!: :cheers: My order showed up today. :santa:
I have enough resin to get the inside of the covered with glass, get the transom in and finish up the console. I'll have to order another batch of resin when I order the foam. I also ordered a full roll of 1708. It really gets my motivation back up there. I need to get these side jobs out of the way so I can put her back together.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131024_193334.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131024_193356.jpg)
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Ahhhh, now i see the difference in the label. Yep, it clearly says "1708" where mine says "2408". Live and learn once again. Its awesome that you got some fun stuff to work with now. It a great feeling to finally start laying glass!
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A lot of money sitting there :shock: (Been there, done that a couple times now :roll: )
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Carl,
I don't have any experience with jackplates either. I have heard many good things about Bob's jackplates, but I haven't heard much either way on the Atlas one. One difference is that Bob's has the pump mounted inside the boat, while the Atlas has it mounted within the jackplate itself. This may make the Atlas easier to install, but I'm not sure I like the pump exposed to the elements like that, especially in salt water.
I never looked into the jackplates before, mainly because I didn't think you could trim up the motor all the way with a full transom, as Capt. Matt suggests. But I honestly didn't think you could get them in 12 or 14 inch setbacks :shock: . Heck, the bigger jackplate is only 3" shorter than the smaller porta bracket. I bet a quick call to Bob's Machine Shop could get this answered.
bob's sells 12 and 14 inch setback jackplates, they even came out with a built in pump last year. it looks to be a pump like whats on the smaller mercury outboards...
http://bobsmachine.com/Action-Series-Ja ... 0HP_c4.htm (http://bobsmachine.com/Action-Series-Jack-Plates-upto-300HP_c4.htm)
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Copy that. Are you planning on going with a jack plate too?
I called Bob's the other day and talked to their tech dept. I asked about the steering cylinder interference, because I have read about it online and in the installation instructions that came with the sea star kit. I was told that there shouldn't be a clearance issue with the larger setback jackplates, the main issue (apparently) is the cylinder hitting the boat ( :?: ).
The other question, which I figured they couldn't answer since there are too many variables, was about the tilting of the motor. He actually used the new 24' Ranger as an example. Even though he stayed kind of vague, he said that Ranger designed it with a full transom that is tall enough that they had to switch to a 25" shaft motor so that the jackplate could be mounted higher and allow the motor to tilt. Maybe B.S., I don't know, but that is what the guy told me.
I guess the moral of the story is, if you are going to use a jackplate with a closed transom, make sure you don't build it so tall that the motor and jackplate can't be mounted by the top of the transom.
Having said all of that, I am leaning more and more towards a porta...
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Totally side note... But I figured I would post a few pics of some of the documentation that came with my boat. I think it's pretty cool that it survived as long as it has...
Purchase contract from 1982...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131025_082822.jpg)
Delivery slip...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131025_082857.jpg)
One happy guy... Notice the original livewell?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131025_082935.jpg)
Motor purchase contract. That's a bunch of money for 1985!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131025_083119.jpg)
Hope someone thinks these are as cool as I do. There is a ton more stuff also, pretty much every purchase that this guy put into the boat.
Adios. :salut:
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You plan on going with a 25inch shaft?
With a full transom it's the way to go
Capt Matt
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Copy that. Are you planning on going with a jack plate too?
I called Bob's the other day and talked to their tech dept. I asked about the steering cylinder interference, because I have read about it online and in the installation instructions that came with the sea star kit. I was told that there shouldn't be a clearance issue with the larger setback jackplates, the main issue (apparently) is the cylinder hitting the boat ( :?: ).
The other question, which I figured they couldn't answer since there are too many variables, was about the tilting of the motor. He actually used the new 24' Ranger as an example. Even though he stayed kind of vague, he said that Ranger designed it with a full transom that is tall enough that they had to switch to a 25" shaft motor so that the jackplate could be mounted higher and allow the motor to tilt. Maybe B.S., I don't know, but that is what the guy told me.
I guess the moral of the story is, if you are going to use a jackplate with a closed transom, make sure you don't build it so tall that the motor and jackplate can't be mounted by the top of the transom.
Having said all of that, I am leaning more and more towards a porta...
i will be going with a porta bracket when the time comes. dont know on what set back yet.
the problem most people have with the steering hitting the boat or jackplate when tilted all the way up is they usually have the motor mounted on the lower settings for the mounting bolts. i had my evinrude mounted high and didnt have any issues with it when tilted all the way up
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One happy guy... Notice the original livewell?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131025_082935.jpg)
:salut:
Nice step side Outrage in the background too :mrgreen: !
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You plan on going with a 25inch shaft? With a full transom it's the way to go
Yes, going with a 25 inch. I actually bought a mid and lower unit from the classifieds on here. I didn't see anyway around a longer shaft with the full transom.
the problem most people have with the steering hitting the boat or jackplate when tilted all the way up is they usually have the motor mounted on the lower settings for the mounting bolts. i had my evinrude mounted high and didnt have any issues with it when tilted all the way up
Very good point Aaron. I forgot that he told me that. I need to make sure I remember that if I do wind up going with a jackplate.
A lot of money sitting there (Been there, done that a couple times now )
I think I will get by with one more order of resin, and it is a decent chunk of change. On the good side (since there isn't a local supplier up here) when I order enough to qualify for freight, the shipping cost is only about a quarter of their standard shipping.
Nice step side Outrage in the background too !
Could be a brand new one too. That pic is from 1982. 8)
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A lot of money sitting there (Been there, done that a couple times now )
I think I will get by with one more order of resin, and it is a decent chunk of change. On the good side (since there isn't a local supplier up here) when I order enough to qualify for freight, the shipping cost is only about a quarter of their standard shipping.
Sometimes the weight just kills me ordering from them and I'm right across the state - I ordered a 7 gal kit and the freight was a bunch :shock:
Their prices are right though. :thumleft:
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Does anyone know what the name of the color this boat is? I figured out that it is blue and white... :lol: I am pretty sure that Gause uses Imron, and without a paint chart in my hand I'm guessing at Shimmering Blue.
(http://gausebuiltboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/first-gause-built-with-350hp.jpg)
If anyone knows for sure I really appreciate your help. :salut:
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Well, I am going to throw my hat in the ring of mold making (thank you Steve for your inspiration). I am attempting to make a Hammerhead style livewell - leaning post, but more ala Eugene's livewell.
I am building it in two pieces, a female mold for the outer piece, and a male mold for the tank itself. The outside dimensions will be 20" x 32" x 30" tall. The tank is going to be 16" x 28" x 28" deep and should be 39 gallons, if I did my math right.
There is a big question for everyone though... I picked up some 1/8" melamine for the walls, which I figured I could get it to bend around the radius, but I snapped it. :evil: So, do you guys have any ideas on how to get a 1/8" sheet of melamine to take a 10" radius without breaking? I would prefer to not kerf it because it is so thin already. I am thinking I might need to steam bend it but I am worried about the finish peeling off if I go that route. What to do, what to do? :scratch:
Anyway, here are some pics of where I am at with it so far.
Pre-sand and wax.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131118_202725.jpg)
I used bondo for the radius on the lid.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131118_202712.jpg)
The mold framed out.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131121_154337.jpg)
The melamine needs to fit in here...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131121_154346.jpg)
Let me know if you see anything I need to change before I go any further. :salut:
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Maybe a counter top laminate???
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Maybe a counter top laminate???
Good idea, like formica (sp)
Carl, guess you'll internally mount the well, no outer lip....with space between the wall to run the plumbing?
Was Eugene's thirty inches tall? They usually put a pretty thick cushion above. I can check the height on Miss D if it will be of help.
Water capacity....mine held about the same, and it was way too much for a number of reasons. Kept lowering the standpipe to reduce capacity. That 35 plus gallons really contributed to excess weight and water pushing in from the scuppers when slow trolling in a sloppy sea.
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That looks awesome Carl! I am planning to do the same thing, so I really appreciate you posting how you are doing yours.
I agree with using formica. You may need to add a few more ribs to give it something to hold on to, but your mold looks great.
It is funny that you posted this today. Right now I am taking a break from making some molds for the doors for my transom enclosure. Between you and Koz, I'm getting all kinds of good ideas! I'll post some pics on my thread once I have something more substantial to show.
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Does anyone know what the name of the color this boat is? I figured out that it is blue and white... :lol: I am pretty sure that Gause uses Imron, and without a paint chart in my hand I'm guessing at Shimmering Blue.
(http://gausebuiltboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/first-gause-built-with-350hp.jpg)
If anyone knows for sure I really appreciate your help. :salut:
Carl, we used a VERY similar color at Proline, although gel, made by HK. Called "Glory Blue"...
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/seabob4/95163_1.jpg)
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Maybe a counter top laminate???
Good idea, like formica (sp)
Good call on the formica! :thumleft: I will have to see on pricing locally though. I am a slave to the local hardware stores, the closest big box store is over an hour away...
Carl, guess you'll internally mount the well, no outer lip....with space between the wall to run the plumbing?
Yes and No... The well will be internally mounted, but there will be a 2 inch space to the outer wall. Not ideal, or even user friendly, so I am thinking about building recesses for the fill and drain standoff. I got that idea from here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z23C0aGwIE), which is a Pathfinder boats livewell. Let me know you thoughts on that, as I don't have the tank mold made yet.
Was Eugene's thirty inches tall? They usually put a pretty thick cushion above. I can check the height on Miss D if it will be of help.
Yes please, if you don't mind. Even if I build it that tall, I can always cut it down later.
That looks awesome Carl! I am planning to do the same thing, so I really appreciate you posting how you are doing yours.... Between you and Koz, I'm getting all kinds of good ideas! I'll post some pics on my thread once I have something more substantial to show.
Thanks Craig. I hope it works as planned. Also, I forgot to mention in my previous post... If I can pull the parts without destroying the mold (i waxed the hell out of the top and plan to do the same with the rest), I will gladly offer the molds up to whoever wants them. But instead of getting the cart in front of the horse, let me see if I can pull this off first. :roll: No pun intended...LOL
Totally unrelated, but I just looked out the window and its snowing..... :shock: :evil:
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Carl, we used a VERY similar color at Proline, although gel, made by HK. Called "Glory Blue"...
Thanks SB. I called around about a color card, and they want $50 effin dollors for it! WTF :!: And that is only the basic marine chart. Still debating that one...
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The recesses are cool, neat vid too.
Kodiak does the same on their portable livewells, but in reverse: The inlet channel is recessed, with a perforated diffuser in front so the bait doesn't get blasted on the inflow. Not sure what they mentioned in the Pathfinder vid (puter speakers don't work here at work) but the theory with the water entering the drain/overflow from the bottom is it sucks ammonia and fish poop up and out.
Probably the best thing about the recesses are the bait gets to swim unencumbered without banging into standpipes, thru hulls etc.
I'll check the height tomorrow when its daylight and post up.
SWEET job :thumleft:
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Well, I guess the up side to small town hardware stores is the fact that most of the employees actually know something. After talking to the lumber guy (a retired contractor, and very good woodworker) he told me to give the steam bending a try, especially considering their price fora 4 x 8 sheet of formica... So, I'm going to give it another shot and I'll post back with the results in a little while.
The recesses are cool, neat vid too.
Kodiak does the same on their portable livewells, but in reverse: The inlet channel is recessed, with a perforated diffuser in front so the bait doesn't get blasted on the inflow. Not sure what they mentioned in the Pathfinder vid (puter speakers don't work here at work) but the theory with the water entering the drain/overflow from the bottom is it sucks ammonia and fish poop up and out.
Probably the best thing about the recesses are the bait gets to swim unencumbered without banging into standpipes, thru hulls etc.
I'll check the height tomorrow when its daylight and post up.
Scott, that is exactly what he talked about in the vid. As much as I hate to admit it, I was not aware of that before.
You should talk to the guy that runs that place about getting some computer speakers... :lol:
Talk to you later.
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Success! A little steam and it bends pretty easy...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131122_145014.jpg)
I just need to tighten it up and trim it, and I'm ready to see how it does.
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After I typed the part about "not working at work" realized the phrase applied to more than speakers :mrgreen:
Every time we fix the speaker wires...the mice eat back through them :lol:
Can't wait to see this thing pulled :cheers:
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Hey Carl,
that mold is looking good! Love the nice radius of the top piece.
Two things, one, im sure you will, but make sure you caulk/seal every edge and seam to prevent gel coat creep. That mistatke cost me a ton of time. I spent more time on repairs than maybe what it took to make the entire mold. Second, how it is going to be mounted? Do you need to add a mounting flange like on my jockey seat mold? Just food for thought.
Additionally, Is this a free standing, 360 degree access live well? If so, have you thought about how the fittings will mount and is there clearance in the design of the second part inner tub for the fittings? I tried to either have the fittings I needed on hand or was 100% sure of what was going in so I could incorporate it in the plans.
Just wanted to think out loud in case any of it strikes a chord
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Hey Carl,
that mold is looking good! Love the nice radius of the top piece.
Two things, one, im sure you will, but make sure you caulk/seal every edge and seam to prevent gel coat creep. That mistatke cost me a ton of time. I spent more time on repairs than maybe what it took to make the entire mold. Second, how it is going to be mounted? Do you need to add a mounting flange like on my jockey seat mold? Just food for thought.
Additionally, Is this a free standing, 360 degree access live well? If so, have you thought about how the fittings will mount and is there clearance in the design of the second part inner tub for the fittings? I tried to either have the fittings I needed on hand or was 100% sure of what was going in so I could incorporate it in the plans.
Just wanted to think out loud in case any of it strikes a chord
All valid points Steve, and I really appreciate it. :salut: I don't have it drawn out, but all fittings will come in from the bottom. I am going to incorporate a fill plenum into the tank itself and I am pretty sure I will build a recess into it also for the drain (see link in the previous post).
I am going to glass it in, no flange required.
As a side note, I managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory after I posted the last pic. I had it tipped on its side and managed to crack the melamine with my shoulder while I was in it....
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Ugghhh! Sorry to hear about the crack. Are you referring to the walled insert you had to steam to bend or one of the plates with the oval cutout? If its the insert, maybe you can steam it again once it's in to relax the curve further.
Also, what kind of lid are you using? If its on a hinge and the entire size of the top then your fine. If its an insert that fits your raised oval then you may need to add one more slightly smaller (3/8's?) oval to create a lip for the insert to sit on. If its not clear what I'm getting at then let me know and I will draw it out.
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Ugghhh! Sorry to hear about the crack. Are you referring to the walled insert you had to steam to bend or one of the plates with the oval cutout? If its the insert, maybe you can steam it again once it's in to relax the curve further.
I will get some more pics up at some point today, but I did re-steam it where it cracked and got it back into shape for the most part. :roll: It still needed some fairing out, so I spent some time doing that last night and it's pretty close now.
Also, what kind of lid are you using? If its on a hinge and the entire size of the top then your fine. If its an insert that fits your raised oval then you may need to add one more slightly smaller (3/8's?) oval to create a lip for the insert to sit on. If its not clear what I'm getting at then let me know and I will draw it out.
The lid will be acrylic and sit in the recess. I will trim the lip back once I pull it from the mold, it will look like this (http://www.thehulltruth.com/parts-forum/382946-leaning-post-livewell.html) (One of Eugene's livewells).
As far as the hinge goes I am planning on using a piano hinge I will relief the lid instead of the fiberglass. Oh, also I am using epoxy, so no gelcoating. That also gives me the opportunity to fix any imperfections after I pull it.
Also, I am waxing everything with Meguiars Mirror Glaze No.8. Do you think I should PVA it too, or should that be good enough to pull it? I put about 7 or 8 coats on the lid so far, it is thick enough that you can scrape it with your finger nail... :scratch:
Thank you!
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I looked at the pic of the livewell you linked to. I get what you are doing, but if you add one more oval you can have a sweet downturned finished edge instead of a cut edge. The cut edge will be facing down and as a nice side effect, will add additional rigidity to the top. The catch is that your first oval will have to be about the thickness of the acrylic or the acrylic will sit recessed a bit and not flush with the top. Heres what I was thinking:
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq300/kaptainkoz/IMG_7467.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/kaptainkoz/media/IMG_7467.jpg.html)
As for PVA, im not a pro but mine popped out relatively easily (when it wasnt held by the creep). I opted against pva in case I got a run or a buildup from spraying it. You cant just wipe it off like wax.
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Good call :!: :thumleft: I don't know why I didn't do that??? I'll cut out one more and add it. I'm still working on the sides to get it where I want it, so no pics yet... I took some, but it is going to look like crap until I get it finished.
As far as resin creeping into cracks, I have sealed everything with a few coats of polyurethane (I have a gallon of water-based left over from another project) and applied the wax over that. It appears to have sealed it pretty well, I hope it works.
Thank you for all of your advice, please keep it coming if you think of anything else.
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Being that you are not gel coating then yes, you will have the chance to fair out any imperfections. With that said make sure your tollerances and measurements take into account paint thickness. I dont see where that would be an issue as of yet being you will cut the door to fit later, but i figured i would share the thought. Looking forward to seeing it progress!!!
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Looks good Carl. I don't know how much you care about how it looks inside the livewell but it is not easy fairing the inside due to the small radius. I did the opposite form than you did meaning I laid the fiberglass on the outside of the form so the inside was slick. I still needed to fair it some and it was a pain. Not like fairing in general isn't a pain. :mrgreen:
Even wrapping the melamine on the outside of a form was difficult I could have used multiple sets of extra hands. Keep up the pictures.
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Fish, to say it is not easy fairing the inside due to the small radius is an understatement. When taking into account, that I heat the shop with wood and that means the melamine keeps drying back out and becomes more brittle laying inside of the mold to sand that radius is not the best option... I created more work for myself by cracking it than I care to admit. If I didn't already have the materials on hand I would go buy some formica, as a matter of fact I would recommend using that instead of the melamine for anyone attempting this in the future. :!:
Anyway, just out of stubborn determination I continued with the melamine and I am calling it good enough... I have waxed it with several coats, but I still need to cut one more ellipse for the top lip and I am going to add some clay (again thank you Steve for that) to the top radius to clean in up a bit.
Here is how it sat when I walked away from it yesterday.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131124_140038.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131124_131902.jpg)
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Re the height:
High here yesterday was 44 and windy. Didn't go to the boat.
Supposed to warm up...will go measure as soon as it does.
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Copy that! No biggie, I don't think I'll be putting any glass in it until later this week. Thanks again Scott. :salut: :salut:
Also, the UPS guy showed up right after I hit send on the last post...
My new toy showed up! :cheers: It is an Air Conditioning vacuum pump. After quite a bit of reading I opted for this kind of pump because of the price and the amount of use it will actually get.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131125_102145.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131125_102125.jpg)
I haven't bagged anything this big before just small patch work. I really didn't see a better way to ensure that the glass would conform to the mold so..... :bounce: Vacuum bagging it is, we'll see how it goes :?:
I have been putting off the transom install waiting so see how successful I will be with this, so if it works like planned I will also vacuum bag the transom install. :geek:
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Sweet!
It is amazing how far we've come as a group. Mold making, now vacuum bagging.
Impressive! :salut:
PS...The THT link to Eugene's livewell....his height was 28 inches. The cushions on top are around 3 inches.
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Nice Ryan, make sure you take lots of pictures of the vacuum bagging. I've never attempted anything like that, so I'm curious to see how it works, especially with a large 3 dimensional project like the livewell. BTW, does the livewell mold have a taper to ease removal?
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Nice Ryan, make sure you take lots of pictures of the vacuum bagging. I've never attempted anything like that, so I'm curious to see how it works, especially with a large 3 dimensional project like the livewell. BTW, does the livewell mold have a taper to ease removal?
I'll answer on behalf of Ryan :lol:
No taper, but I made the mold so I can (hopefully) take the top off for easier removal of the part. That is more of a theory than a fact, not sure how that's going to go. I'll do my best to take pics and document it, but Steve has set the bar pretty high.
Talk to you later.
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Thanks Carl! Even if its not tapered, as long as its waxed/non stick, you can always break the mold apart away from it. If you were making a production mold to use time and time again you would want it to release with no damage to the mold. A taper on a piece of that size and nature is beyond my math. Not only would the seam be cut to accomodate, but the top and bottom edges would have to be cut as well. Thats CAD in my book!
Im impressed at how even your oval cuts are. I went with all straight sections as thats the easiest to work with. Rounded surfaces are alot safer and appreciated in the rough. Look awesome Carl!!!
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You did a real nice job Carl.
The one thing I would suggest is to use some PVA it's like having a plastic bag in the mold in between the wax and the fiberglass. It would pop out without having any melamine stuck to it.
On my livewell I used the same melamine and wax. I spent an hour breaking the mold out of it and several more hours scraping and sanding all the melamine and brown paper off.
The PVA takes a little to get used to spray but if your going to do anymore of these projects it's a must.
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Also, the UPS guy showed up right after I hit send on the last post...
My new toy showed up! :cheers: It is an Air Conditioning vacuum pump. After quite a bit of reading I opted for this kind of pump because of the price and the amount of use it will actually get.
I haven't bagged anything this big before just small patch work. I really didn't see a better way to ensure that the glass would conform to the mold so..... :bounce: Vacuum bagging it is, we'll see how it goes :?:
I have been putting off the transom install waiting so see how successful I will be with this, so if it works like planned I will also vacuum bag the transom install. :geek:
Alright - Vacuum bagging lessons :cheers: Keep up the good teaching Ryan.... er, Carl :mrgreen:
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Sorry about the name misstep Carl :oops: , looks like I started a trend!
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Carl is that pump from harbor freight for $139.99?
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Carl is that pump from harbor freight for $139.99?
Yes, I got it with the 20% off coupon, so I figured no harm no foul if it doesn't work like it is supposed to. I looked around the internet before I bought it and overall the feedback on them seems to be pretty good. I don't buy much from there, but when I do I always do some research and don't have very high expectations, it seems to be a crap shoot on getting a good item from there. :lol: I have to say, that so far I am happy with it though. It does what it is supposed to do.
Having said that, I did a dry run yesterday with bagging the mold. What I expected to be a fairly quick deal turned into a long frustrating day of experimenting and learning with different configurations of bags and sealants. Using a vacuum pump is a totally different animal from my experience from work. I am used to venturi generators and huge industrial compressors, the big difference is the massive cfm ability of those setups are more forgiving of leaks in the bag and seals.
With this setup the sealing is much more critical. I started out with strip caulking, moved on the double sided tape and then eventually came to the conclusion that the particle board is just to porous to get a good seal. I would not recommend trying to seal to it unless you seal the surface of it first. I eventually moved on to the great silver standby...Duct tape. Thank you Mr. Duct tape inventor, there really isn't anything a person can't fix with Duct tape!
For a breather I used polyester batting. Again, much cheaper than actual breather fabric... I bought a roll (110x110) at Wally World for $10.
As far as bag material, I didn't buy actual bagging material plastic drop cloth works just as well and is much cheaper. I started out with a 1 mil material but quickly came to the conclusion that it is too fragile. I would not recommend it for a complex shape or one with sharp angles because if you don't have massive excesses of material and it bridges, it will tear under vacuum. It does however work just fine for peel ply. I eventually settled on a 5 mil material and it is pliable enough to conform to the shape and tough enough to work with.
Even though I spent the whole day messing with it, I had it figured out by the end of the day and I am very confident it is going to work. I apologize that I didn't take more pictures of the different configurations, I guess frustration and determination got the best of me. I did however take a picture of the final configuration (the one that worked). I plan on trying to do this for real tomorrow, so I should have some more updates tomorrow afternoon/evening.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131127_175240.jpg)
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
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Cool - thanks for the pic.
Could you explain the process and where each layer you mentioned goes? I can tell the plastic is the outer layer :wink:
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Carl, we did a lot of vacuum bagging in aerospace, always used "bubble gum" for sealing the edges and around fittings...http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product ... 7AodNHAAkg (http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html?gclid=CNfpl6n7h7sCFTRo7AodNHAAkg)
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Carl,
Looks very impressive for a DIY. :salut:
I've been looking at You Tube vids on this and it sure seems like a lot of work but with a high reward factor when completed properly.
It's starting to get real interesting.
Good luck. :thumright:
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Great set up Carl!! Are you going to try and vacuum infuse the resin?
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Wow, that looks like it will work great Carl! I can't wait to see the final product :thumleft:
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I was researching the vacuum bagging and infusion process too and looks like an expensive endeavor using all the correct supplies. Can't wait to see what you come up with everyday supplies.
I have a transom cap, hardtop, and maybe a console left to make.
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The computer is put away because of all of the holiday guests, so I will give more specific replies tomorrow.
Thank you all for the compliments and words of encouragement, I truely appreciate it. No infusion happening, that is a little above my pay grade...
I'm going to get up early in the morning so that I can hopefully have the resin kicked enough by bed time that I don't have to worry about keeping the garage heated overnight.
I'll report back tomorrow.
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I'm sorry if I made anyone wait an extra day to see the results, but my helper flaked out on me on Friday. He had told me that Saturday would be the day, but again no dice. I opted to enlist my photographer (aka Ministry of Finance, aka The Admiral, aka the Boss) to mix resin and help me lay up the glass. I would like to say publicly that she did an awesome job and I appreciate it very much. You are the best! Thank you.
This situation caused a serious lack of documentation of the process though, I did my best, but I have to admit that I was pretty much pushing my limits for wetting out and laying up for the first couple of layers. However, my wife quickly gained confidence and caught on to the process very fast and really helped speed things up.
I used epoxy (as I will for the entire build) and kept the garage around 50 during the wet out and layup to prolong the resin kicking. Once the layup was completed and the barrier layer, breather, bag and vacuum was applied I kicked the heat up to 75-80 degrees and kept it there all night.
Here is an example of the schedule for vacuum bagging.
http://www.nextcraft.com/media/rc_tips/vacuum_bag_tests/basic_layup_components.jpg
The layup;
- 4 layers of 1708 (45 degree) alternated in orientation. This means that every other layer was at 0 and 90 degrees.
- All of the glass was wet out outside of the mold and placed into the mold.
- The glass was cut so that each layer consisted of 3 pieces. One top piece, and the sides are made of two pieces each. all pieces overlap by approx 4 inches. The sides were oriented so that the seams were offset by 90 degrees. This gives the part 4 positions where the laminate is doubled (8 layers) to give additional strength and support.
Note: All glass was weighed after it was cut to shape so that I would know how much resin to mix for each piece. I had covered this process in a previous post. It is located here (http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10014&start=75) about 3/4s of the way down.
These are the top pieces of glass for the layup. They weighed 15.5 ounces each.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_120009.jpg)
I don't have a pic of the pieces for the sides laying out on the table, but they weighed 65 ounces per layer. Each layer was multiple pieces.
Note the seams are offset.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_135341.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_132216.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_132153.jpg)
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Well, unfortunately I need to skip forward to the bag under vacuum so I don't know how helpful this post really will be.
After all of the glass was in the mold, I applied a layer of 1 mil drop cloth that I perforated with a drywall screw. All I did was tap the screw onto the drop cloth before I unfolded it and created a series of holes. The reason this needs to be done is so that any excess resin can "bleed" though this layer into the breather. This ensures an appropriate resin glass ratio and give you a lighter and stronger laminate.
On top of the barrier layer you must put a breather layer. I used polyester batting (ultra loft). The purpose of this layer is two fold. It primarily leaves a "channel" for air to flow through and creates even clamping pressure across the entire part. The secondary purpose is to soak up the excess resin squeezed out once the vacuum is applied.
Once the breather is in, the bag itself needs to go on. As stated earlier I used 5 mil plastic and duct tape to create the bag. This is pretty straight forward. I is very important to make sure the bag has NO LEAKS or else you will never achieve full vacuum.
My vacuum pump is just a cheap HF 3 cfm automotive style air conditioning vacuum pump. I will post more details on my manifold, etc once I break down the bag. (it is still under vacuum right now).
This is the piece under vacuum for approximately 5 minutes.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_173839.jpg)
I went back into the shop to check on it about 30 minutes later to check on it and found the shop filled with oil mist from the vacuum pump, this is normal. Once vacuum is achieved with this style pump, the mist oil from the exhaust port. Either way, not cool! It was so thick that the camera couldn't focus.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_182922.jpg)
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So I reconfigured my dust collector into an exhaust vent. It worked well and cleared the oil mist out in a hurry.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_185912.jpg)
This is the piece at one hour.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_182611.jpg)
And at two hours...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131130_214831.jpg)
Not much had changed and I had a fairly low amount of bleed through, so overall I am very happy so far. I think this just might work...
I will post back later today with some more pics once I break everything down.
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That looks awesome, Carl! I think it will come out great! How long do you plan to leave it under vacuum, and how long before you pop it from the mold?
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Well, I failed at getting it out cleanly...but I got it out. I'm glad I am not using gelcoat/poly... :lol:
I am happy with it overall and will elaborate more on the process later. I'm just too excited not to post pics!
I may have lost the battle with the melamine, but I feel as though I won the war!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_141701.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_141715.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_141731.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_141902.jpg)
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Nice Carl! A little fairing here and there and that should look great! What are the brown patches?
fyi, you're making out a lot better than I am with my simple little doors. They're fighting me every step of the way. But I'm learning, so if I have to make them again...at least I'll hopefully be a little smarter about it.
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Craig, remember my adage..."Never let an inanimate object beat you!" You're the one with the smarts, you'll figure it out!! :salut: :salut:
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Looks like it worked good.... the PVA is the trick for the form to not stick. I like your setup I am going to try it. When you take it all apart can you lay everything out to show the components of your vacuum system?
Congrats on your livewell it looks great! :cheers:
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Craig, remember my adage..."Never let an inanimate object beat you!" You're the one with the smarts, you'll figure it out!! :salut: :salut:
LOL! Thanks Bob- great saying. I think I know what I did wrong. I'll post some info on my thread (I don't want to derail Carl's) in a few days after I get a few pics of my little headaches.
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Nice Carl! A little fairing here and there and that should look great! What are the brown patches?
fyi, you're making out a lot better than I am with my simple little doors. They're fighting me every step of the way. But I'm learning, so if I have to make them again...at least I'll hopefully be a little smarter about it.
The brown patches are where the resin stuck to the malamine. The brown is the underlying layer of the hardboard. I had to sand it anyway (since I am painting) so it was not really a major catastrophe, it more or less hurt my pride and that's all.
Hell, I think we are all learning here with the molds. At least you don't have to go it alone. :cheers: Steve had some issues, I am having some issues...we'll all figure it out and move on armed with some more knowledge. Plus Bob is 100% correct, so build on my man. Build on.
It's all better now. I little fairing to do from a bad bondo job, but its all good!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_193318.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_193332.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_193341.jpg)
Looks like it worked good.... the PVA is the trick for the form to not stick. I like your setup I am going to try it. When you take it all apart can you lay everything out to show the components of your vacuum system?
I believe you are correct, I will use PVA when I do the tank. Like I mentioned before, I have done small composite repairs before under vacuum, but this is my first time with vacuum in a mold and I totally overestimated the abilities of the wax. I with definitely use PVA (or hair spray since I don't need that much) when I go to build the tank.
I have pics on my phone of the setup, and I will upload them in the morning before I go to work along with an explanation of what the pics are.
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Craig, remember my adage..."Never let an inanimate object beat you!" You're the one with the smarts, you'll figure it out!! :salut: :salut:
LOL! Thanks Bob- great saying. I think I know what I did wrong. I'll post some info on my thread (I don't want to derail Carl's) in a few days after I get a few pics of my little headaches.
Derail? Is there such a thing????? Post some pics up and we'll get it figured out. Here, there, anywhere! :salut:
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Carl after you cleaned it up that sucker looks good. I am impressed! It looks better than mine did even though it was my first try at making a fiberglass mold. :mrgreen:
I can't wait to try that vacuum system on some of my next projects like a hardtop, doors, transom cap, console, and anything else I can get my hands on. :lol:
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Looks Great!! What's the inside look like?
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Looks Great!! What's the inside look like?
A few wrinkles, but pretty clean...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_110655.jpg)
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Carl, Looks great for a first time, the vac bagging had to be a pita to get set, but it came out looking excellent. Do you think you could have used a dump gun to gel the mold before you laid up to keep from having to paint?
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This post is for how I set up the vacuum system, and also the lessons I learned and what I will do differently the next time... Mostly posted for Fish, but for anyone else who might be interested also.
Here is an overview of vacuum bagging...
(http://www.tygavac.co.uk/assets/images/infusion-diagram.jpg)
The pump is a 3 CFM, 2 stage Air Conditioning vacuum pump. It is from HF and did the job quite well, especially considering I got it on sale with a coupon on top of it for a little over one bill. Compare that to the "vacuum bagging pumps and I think it's a pretty good deal.
A small heads up on this style pump though. The fittings are specific for air conditioning system hoses, they are not regular fittings. I have a few different sized hoses in the shop, so I used a 3/8 ths I.D. hose on the fitting.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//675/20131125_102125.jpg)
Also, as I had mentioned in an earlier post they exhaust a fog of oil once they achieve vacuum, so some sort of an exhaust fan is a must.
The manifold I used was just some scraps of 3/4" pvc and a tee fitting. I just drilled a series of holes in the two pieces that were inside of the bag so that I could get the vacuum spread out across the bottom of the mold. I didn't have any hose that wouldn't collapse under vacuum, so I just hit the pvc with the torch to bend it.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_110247.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_110254.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131127_175240.jpg)
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One more thing on the manifold... It needs to be wrapped with breather material to ensure a constant airflow.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_105952.jpg)
For my material layup inside of the mold I layed the glass in (obviously) and then used a layer of 1 mil plastic drop cloth (which I perforated before installing) in place of the actual material, which is called peel ply (a barrier layer). NOTE: The next time I do this I will use a heavier material. The problem with the 1 mil is that under vacuum the plastic will fold and wrinkle, in itself not a problem...until you go to pull it out. In the corner at the top of the part the plastic kept tearing. Not the end of the world, but a pain in the a$$ none the less.
On top of the barrier layer I placed a breather layer. The material I used was polyester batting. This material worked just fine and there is nothing I would change with the way I did this step and the material performed very well.
For the bag, I used a 5 mil plastic. This worked very well too. I would change nothing there also.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_105857.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_105836.jpg)
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Oh, two more quick things....
Under vacuum PVA is a MUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I waxed the hell out of the mold and still had major issues getting the part out.
The second is, I would recommend that you put several layers of breather under the manifold to reduce the likelyhood of the manifold leaving an imprint on the glass.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//686/20131201_110722.jpg)
I hope this answers all questions, if not let me know and I'll be glad to offer anything else up that I may have missed.
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Thanks for the explanation :salut:
The inside will be the "working"side correct? That's the most important side and probably the hardest to reach in and smooth anything out in with a grinder, etc.
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Post some pics up and we'll get it figured out. Here, there, anywhere! :salut:
Thanks Carl - I've got one door made (still in the mold) and it will take a few more days to finish the other door and then I'll pop them out and post some pics. I'm not too optimistic that either will turn out very good, but I'm willing to chalk it up to a learning experience. For now, let's just say I tried doing too much at one time :cry: :roll:
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Thanks for the explanation :salut:
The inside will be the "working"side correct? That's the most important side and probably the hardest to reach in and smooth anything out in with a grinder, etc.
Rick,
I believe Carl is building another piece, using a male mold, to be the inner "tank" part of the livewell. No one will ever see the inside surface of the piece he already made. Well, no one except us who have seen the pictures....
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Carl, Looks great for a first time, the vac bagging had to be a pita to get set, but it came out looking excellent. Do you think you could have used a dump gun to gel the mold before you laid up to keep from having to paint?
Thank you for the compliment. Yes on the gel, but since I am using epoxy resin there is no gelcoat. The entire boat will be paint, which at this point I am leaning toward Imron. That is still a little ways off though.
Thanks for the explanation :salut:
The inside will be the "working"side correct? That's the most important side and probably the hardest to reach in and smooth anything out in with a grinder, etc.
Rick,
I believe Carl is building another piece, using a male mold, to be the inner "tank" part of the livewell. No one will ever see the inside surface of the piece he already made. Well, no one except us who have seen the pictures....
Yes that is correct. I will make the tank on a male mold so that the inside will be the smooth surface. I need to do some tests first with pva under vacuum to gain some more confidence that I can get the part seperated from the mold. If I don't get satisfactory results I will try the counter top laminate in place of the melamine as suggested earlier. I guess is I wasn't being so cheap I would have been better off buying a sheet of that to begin with. Oh well...
Also, in that picture what appears to be really rough glass in the bottom is the plastic I used for the peel ply. I need to finish pulling the pieces that tore out of there and I'll take another picture. Even if it is a little rough I can make a cabosil/shredded fiber glue to bed the tank into. I don't think it will be that big of a deal, but time will tell.
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ahhHAAA - so the side you've worked on smoothing out will be the form for the next one? I'm too cheap I guess. I do it once and get in there and grind it to an acceptable finish :oops:
Never though of making a mold to make a mold :mrgreen:
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Carl thanks for the additional info and pictures. For the peel ply you were commenting that the 1ml plastic was not suitable. What thickness would you try next and would more holes in it help it lay down better?
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I think its a great piece to work with. It came out great! I think it will fair out and paint amazing. Now is the fun part. I hate faring!
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ahhHAAA - so the side you've worked on smoothing out will be the form for the next one? I'm too cheap I guess.
Not exactly, the part that I made so far is the "shell" for the tank. I have not made the actual tank yet, but it will go inside of the shell. My logic for this is that; 1) I don't have a need for a 64 gallon tank, 2) That would be way to much weight, 3) I like the idea of having the space between the shell and the tank for bolting on rod holders, running plumbing, etc.
Hopefully I will get the mold for the tank built this week.
Carl thanks for the additional info and pictures. For the peel ply you were commenting that the 1ml plastic was not suitable. What thickness would you try next and would more holes in it help it lay down better?
You are very welcome.
I'm going to try a 3 mil on some test pieces, if it tears I will just accept the fact that I need to buy the real thing. :lol: The 1 mil was fine on the sides and the bottom, but tore in the corners on the rounded ends. However, it did leave the few wrinkles that you can see on the pic of the inside. I think that could be avoided by using the 3 mil.
I don't know if more holes would help it lay down better, because the holes are just for letting the excess resin squeeze out of the laminate. While researching vacuum bagging several sources said that wrinkles in the peel ply aren't a big deal, but I would try to make sure you got as many of them out as possible. This would be more important were a good finish is important on both sides.
One other thing I will do the next time is put a hot coat of resin on the mold. I have some areas on the outer most layer that are dry, and a lot of pin holes that could have been avoided with the hot coat.
Though I suppose the most important thing really is getting a solid laminate, which was accomplished. The 4 layers of 1708 came out at an average of .166 (based on 10 random measurements), pretty darn close to the theoretical .160 that 4 layers should be. What I didn't do was weigh it.... I guess I should do that and post it back here too? Ya know, since we are talking vacuum bagging and all. :lol:
I think its a great piece to work with. It came out great! I think it will fair out and paint amazing. Now is the fun part. I hate faring!
Thanks Steve. I don't think it will be too bad... Or at least that it what I'm telling myself!
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ahhHAAA - so the side you've worked on smoothing out will be the form for the next one? I'm too cheap I guess.
Not exactly, the part that I made so far is the "shell" for the tank. I have not made the actual tank yet, but it will go inside of the shell. My logic for this is that; 1) I don't have a need for a 64 gallon tank, 2) That would be way to much weight, 3) I like the idea of having the space between the shell and the tank for bolting on rod holders, running plumbing, etc.
Hopefully I will get the mold for the tank built this week.
I see. I think I was confusing your tank and fishinonthebrain's. His will be in the transom and I guess I thought yours was too. I guess I'll wait and see what happens next. Sorry for the confusion. :oops:
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No problem Rick. This one is going to be a livewell/leaning post dealio, styled after a Hammerhead or the kind that Eugene makes.
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After manually fussing with my hatches I realized that the way to get the results I'm looking for I need to be using the same process on my hatches so I really appreciate the tips on this :D Also been reading a lot over at Joewoodworker.com but I think they are more into using bags where I want to use tape to a substrate and use the vacuum as a press. Good reading none the less.
For my material layup inside of the mold I layed the glass in (obviously) and then used a layer of 1 mil plastic drop cloth (which I perforated before installing) in place of the actual material, which is called peel ply (a barrier layer). NOTE: The next time I do this I will use a heavier material. The problem with the 1 mil is that under vacuum the plastic will fold and wrinkle, in itself not a problem...until you go to pull it out. In the corner at the top of the part the plastic kept tearing. Not the end of the world, but a pain in the a$$ none the less.
On flat surfaces would the 1mil be ok?
On top of the barrier layer I placed a breather layer. The material I used was polyester batting. This material worked just fine and there is nothing I would change with the way I did this step and the material performed very well.
What weight did you use? Can it be purchased at say, Wally world?
For the bag, I used a 5 mil plastic. This worked very well too. I would change nothing there also
Is this the heavier visqueen like at HD?
Is duct-tape the preferred method of sealing the "bag" to something?
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On flat surfaces would the 1mil be ok?
Yes, but make sure you get all of the wrinkles out. It will save on sanding. However, on a flat surface I think you would be fine with a 5 mil if you have to buy a roll of it anyway. The main problem with the heavier plastic for a barrier cloth was how it layed into compound curves.
What weight did you use? Can it be purchased at say, Wally world?
Yes, Wally world. It is polyester quilt batting and it is in the craft section. I would recommend the high loft, and I bought the 110 x 110 for around $10.
Is this the heavier visqueen like at HD?
Is duct-tape the preferred method of sealing the "bag" to something?
Yes, it is just the regular old plastic drop cloth stuff. If your are going to Wally World for the batting they should have the plastic there too.
As far as sealing goes... I found the duct tape to be the easiest, especially if you are making an actual bag to put the part in.
Please post pics of your progress, as I have said a bunch of times now I am learning too.
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I think I will be "clamping" the hatches to the garage floor so I will need a 1mil layer underneath to catch any ooze out and then follow your schedule to vacuum it down adding probably 1708 as the top layer. Do I need to use any fancy tape to secure the underneath drop-cloth? And then use duct-tape on the 5mil out a little farther along the outline directly to the floor? This is the foreign part to me.
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I think I will be "clamping" the hatches to the garage floor so I will need a 1mil layer underneath to catch any ooze out and then follow your schedule to vacuum it down adding probably 1708 as the top layer. Do I need to use any fancy tape to secure the underneath drop-cloth? And then use duct-tape on the 5mil out a little farther along the outline directly to the floor? This is the foreign part to me.
Funny Rick I am asking you what your going to use on your thread and you are over here asking Carl what to use. :D
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I think I will be "clamping" the hatches to the garage floor so I will need a 1mil layer underneath to catch any ooze out and then follow your schedule to vacuum it down adding probably 1708 as the top layer. Do I need to use any fancy tape to secure the underneath drop-cloth? And then use duct-tape on the 5mil out a little farther along the outline directly to the floor? This is the foreign part to me.
Just think of it this way, you are building a bag around the part. One thing I learned was that particle board (most people call MDF) was too porous to get a proper seal. I fear you might see the same thing with the concrete. The other thing I would worry about is getting the resin stuck in the concrete.
I'll tell you what Rick, I'm off tomorrow, I will lay it out with pics and post back with how I think it would work best. I will do my best to get them posted early.
Oh, BTW that is a really nice setup. I may upgrade because the oiled compressor is kind of a PITA. I also like to dabble into the woodworking and see the serious value in owning a quality rig. :thumleft:
Funny Rick I am asking you what your going to use on your thread and you are over here asking Carl what to use.
If it is up to me....May God help us all! :lol: :lol: :lol:
You guys need to post pics so we can learn on this subject and get it nailed down!
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I think I will be "clamping" the hatches to the garage floor so I will need a 1mil layer underneath to catch any ooze out and then follow your schedule to vacuum it down adding probably 1708 as the top layer. Do I need to use any fancy tape to secure the underneath drop-cloth? And then use duct-tape on the 5mil out a little farther along the outline directly to the floor? This is the foreign part to me.
Funny Rick I am asking you what your going to use on your thread and you are over here asking Carl what to use. :D
Pretty funny. :lol:
Maybe at the end I can open another forum or sub-forum to capture some of the vacuum tips, supply sources, etc
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Oh, BTW that is a really nice setup. I may upgrade because the oiled compressor is kind of a PITA. I also like to dabble into the woodworking and see the serious value in owning a quality rig. :thumleft:
Which pump are you eyeballing?
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The one that rick just bought from Veneer Supply, this is the one (http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Excel-5-Continuous-Run-Vacuum-Press-System.html). I can wait to see how it works, I was also looking at the other kits they have too. They have some reasonable prices for their kits.
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I assembled the pump today, zero'd it and calibrated it. Did some YouTubing and it looks like what I need to do is going to be pretty easy (I hope).
I ordered a couple extra valve stem assemblies and glad I did, the basic kit didn't come with any. Got a couple more 10ft lengths of hose too - thinking I might need to run multiple vacuum points sometime.
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I assembled the pump today, zero'd it and calibrated it. Did some YouTubing and it looks like what I need to do is going to be pretty easy (I hope).
I ordered a couple extra valve stem assemblies and glad I did, the basic kit didn't come with any. Got a couple more 10ft lengths of hose too - thinking I might need to run multiple vacuum points sometime.
I am looking forward to seeing your work with the bagging. I am going to pick up a vacuum gauge this afternoon actually, more on that this weekend (hopefully).
I didn't realize that kit didn't come with stems :scratch: ... I agree that you will need multiple points, especially if you are considering doing a job as big as the sole.
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Guys, believe the livewell on Miss D was right at 19 inches behind the console. Will reconfirm that measurement over the weekend.
We mocked it up with the console and livewell outside of the boat. Steering wheel was held on top of the console. We went through all types of scenarios; kicked back, left leg up on gunnel, etc. I'm 5'10 with short arms. A taller guy may find it better an inch or so further back. We were lucky on the measurements. Wouldn't change a thing.
I was messing around with my spacing yesterday. I came up with 18 inches, but without the cushion, you have me thinking I should plan on maybe another inch or two.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20131213_170946.jpg)
I also have cut down the leaning post to 29 inches. I have to option to cut it down more later on once I figure out the cushion situation. I haven't made a decision on whether I want to do a cushion like Scott's or make a flip up seat on a frame, but there is time to figure that out I guess...
As, you can see in the picture, I haven't done anything with the console lately... Damn project A.D.D. :lol:
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Looks like a great combo :!:
That is one mac-daddy console (now that I see it in comparison with the well) - whoa :cheers:
Also I like the "supplies" in the bottom of the pic - should be pretty close to drinking temp sitting where they are (I drink the light version myself) :salut:
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Thanks for the compliment Rick. :salut:
Uhhh, those boxes are empties. Michigan has a $.10 deposit on cans, bottles, etc.
Those "supplies" help me when I'm thinking, and I do a lot of thinking. :lol: :cheers:
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Thinking is important :thumright:
Was planning on going to the boat today to run her, treat the gas, clean bird poop, and reconfirm those measurements.
Mother nature had different ideas...cold windy rain. Hopefully next weekend we'll have a decent day.
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A little progress before I got sent on my trip last week. I had full intentions of finishing the transom up last weekend, and was taking advantage of the cold to inhibit the epoxy from reaching a full cure so that would wind up with more of a chemical bond on the inner layers. Since that didn't happen and I was gone for four days, the epoxy seems to have fully cured on me and now I will just have a secondary bonding situation. Not the end of the world, but less than ideal.
I started with a 3/8ths fillet of epoxy/cabosil mix followed by two layers of 1708 against the outer skin, wrapping around the sides of the hull 4 inches on the first layer and 6 with the second. I then set the core in place, 2 layers of 3/4" fir glued with a liberal amount of epoxy/cabosil mix and primed with epoxy on both sides and all edges.
I used a piece of 3/4" particle board wrapped in plastic as a backer to clamp to and 4x4's as clamps.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/transom4.jpg)
Last night I removed the clamps and did a little sanding in preparation for the rest.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/transom_2.jpg)
Next is to finish the fillets (I had one of the clamps too low), re-prime and finish my lamination. I might vacuum bag the inner layers, not sure yet...
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Now that the site is fixed, I can get this post up...
We finally had a little bit of a break in the temperature so I could finally get the shop heated up for glass work. It is supposed to be in the 30's all week too :bounce: , which is good because I have my foam and (hopefully) my last batch of resin on the way.
I finished up the transom yesterday. Feels pretty good, now I need to get the forms made for the stringers.
As you can see, I left a shelf at the top to tie in the transom cap.
1 layer of 6" 1708 tape and 1 layer of 12" 1708 tape (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140215_124530.jpg)
2 layers of 1708 cloth
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140215_145426.jpg)
Viola! All done!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140215_181027.jpg)
Talk you you all later. :salut:
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Looking Good Carl!! Whattza curiosity intensifier off to the right, PVC hose and flex tubing?? :scratch:
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Nice clean looking work there Carl :salut:
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Looks great, Carl :thumleft: Did you vacuum bag it?
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Thanks for the compliments guys.
Dave, that is my impromptu environmental evacuation unit, aka my dust collector with some stuff I had laying around (plus lots of duct tape) to make it blow outside. I originally cobbled it together because the vacuum pump mist oil, but I just left it because the fiberglass dust is so fine it just keeps clogging up the filter bag.
Craig, no bagging this time I was working by myself and it just seemed like a big hassle. I am planning on bagging the stringers though. I wish I had the confidence to do some infusion, that would be the ticket for a big layup like them.
Til next time. :salut:
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I tried your "measurement" method for the amount of resin yesterday - worked good.
I had a bunch of strips of cloth that I calculated to need approx 9-10 oz using the 2oz per sq ft method and then brought out a scale I purchased many years ago for when I was making reproductions of my 170 Aquasport badge/emblem and the cloth weighed in at 9.2oz. So both are viable methods :salut:
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I'm glad to hear it Rick. :salut: Just out of curiosity, did you have less resin left over by weighing it out?
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Calculation wise I think I was roughly the same but the weighing left no doubt as to what I needed. I was actually verifying that I was close to my "guessing" by weighing and then ended up using the cup markings to measure the 2:1 mix instead of weighing out each portion after all. Maybe next time I will do it weight wise.
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I have been putting off the last bit of grinding I have left on the inside of the hull, and it's killing me! I have been going at it for about 3 hours and the paint is so thick (from the P.O.) that I have gone through almost 2 dozen grinding discs.
This sucks! :(
On a positive note, if I can muster the wherewithal to get it done tonight I'll be poised for getting the inside of the hull glassed tomorrow (finally)! :cheers: Hell, I'm only a year or so behind schedule... :wink:
Wish me luck fellas.
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Hell, I'm only a year or so behind schedule... :wink:
Wish me luck fellas.
Boats don't run on schedules, Carl!!
Remember, if it has ANYTHING to do with a boat, it will cost you 3 times as much and take you 4 times longer!! :cheers: :cheers:
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Are you using a flap sandpaper wheel? Those baby's will flat tear some stuff up. 40 grit. Sounds like this advise might be too late.
Hey I just cut the Plascore, cloth and mat for the lid of the casting deck tonight and in the morning I'm going to use your weight method (and add just a little to coat the Plascore webbing) for resin amount. Just need to make sure I have a new 9v battery.
Good to see you back at it though.
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Carl, here's your good luck wish! :thumright:
Looks like the entire country gets better weather next week!
And yep, as Bob says....mine was ready in April as promised....two Aprils' later! :lol:
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Good luck x2!
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Well, I ran out of grinding discs... :? It is really disappointing to go through so much money over some thick paint. That stuff just clogged the discs right up, I was only getting about a square foot before they were done. Oh well, I need to source some more today and get this finished up.
Thankfully our temps are looking up for here also. My kiddos have been up my butt lately about getting her done for summer. I guess the repaint (on the outside) may have to wait until next winter?
Talk to you guys later. :salut:
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Are you using a flap sandpaper wheel? Those baby's will flat tear some stuff up. 40 grit. Sounds like this advise might be too late.
I'll second this. Flapper wheels work amazingly well and last much longer too. If you've got a grinder that can take it slap a 6" wheel on and go to town!
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Oh, I missed that... I will give those a try!
Thanks!
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HF has 40 grit 3, 4 and 7" flap wheels - grab a few.
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HF, as much as may like it, is 2 hours away. I picked up some goodies from a hardware about 40 minutes from the house, then Mr. Busch stopped me and schooled me on the finer points of taking a break. As a side note, i think i have pin pointed why this is taking me so long. :drunken: :drunken: :drunken:
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Well, I got the grinding all finished up. :cheers:
I laminated a fresh layer of 1708 in the hull. I took some pictures, but it doesn't look very interesting so I didn't upload any. :roll: :lol: It just looks like a cleaner version of what it has been. I will tell you this though, I have finally accepted the fact that everyone wants to help until it is time to work :!: :evil: That's okay... I'm keeping a list, so we'll see who gets to fish for free. :lol: :lol: :lol: It does suck laminating that much by myself, It takes a lot longer than it needs to.
I also picked up some mdf yesterday for forming up my stringers and will hopefully have something appreciable to post by the end of the week.
Talk to you guys soon.
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Well, I got the grinding all finished up. :cheers:
I thought that once too :cry:
I laminated a fresh layer of 1708 in the hull. I took some pictures, but it doesn't look very interesting so I didn't upload any. :roll: :lol: It just looks like a cleaner version of what it has been.
That's good progress though. A good canvas to start with :salut:
I will tell you this though, I have finally accepted the fact that everyone wants to help until it is time to work :!: :evil: That's okay... I'm keeping a list, so we'll see who gets to fish for free. :lol: :lol: :lol: It does suck laminating that much by myself, It takes a lot longer than it needs to.
Yup, I used to have some neighborhood friends that wanted to help :roll: Now I do everything by myself. They'll come help me lift something but that is all.
I also picked up some mdf yesterday for forming up my stringers and will hopefully have something appreciable to post by the end of the week.
Are you going to build trapezoid stringers?
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Yes on the trapezoid stringers. I am only putting two back in though, well sort of, I am planning on putting a stiffener down the keel also. I am going to do something a little different with the way I am building the stringers though. Hopefully I don't fail, but I am going to make a mold, pour the foam and then glass. My thought process is that: 1. I will not have to drill holes to fill the stringers, 2. I can forego the tabbing and have one homogeneous lamination bonded to the hull instead of the secondary bond that I would get from tabbing them in. We'll see how it goes...
Well, I got the grinding all finished up.
I thought that once too
Touche! I guess I meant on the inside. LOL!
There is quite a bit more grinding once I flip her over, the bottom is a mess. The P.O.(S.) never removed all of the anti foul paint and just went right over it (what was left of it) with Awlgrip. And I mean thick too! I am actually debating buying a wet blasting attachment for the power washer to reduce the sanding/grinding time. I remember LilRichard used the one from (i think) Northern Tool with very good success, so I may try it. For $65 it seems reasonable.
BTW, the closest company that does soda blasting is almost 4 hours from here. Not really all that practical.
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Interesting thought on the foam-first approach. Are you going to form them in place? Otherwise, I'm not sure how you are going to get the foam to conform to the hull. I personally find it a little difficult to get the glass to bend tightly around an outside corner (like at the top of the stringers), but looking at your work, I don't think you will have that problem.
FYI, I tried one of those pressure washer sand blasting attachments that LilRichard used. I did not get the same results. I think the problem was that my PW did not have enough flow and/or pressure. I may rent a larger one and try again. Let me know how you make out and what size PW you are using.
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Hi Craig, :salut:
Yes I am going to pour the foam in place. I am going to set up for both, but only do one complete with glass just to make sure I can get the desired results. I actually ordered enough extra foam to account for a total loss on this experiment. Probably not the best part of the boat to experiment with, but I think I can make it work.
I plan on leaving the tops of the forms completely open so that I can make sure I get as close to a void free pour as possible. Once the foam is done doing it's thing, I'll go back and trim the excess off of the top and shave a radius to help the glass conform better.
As far as the wet blaster goes, I have a 3200 or 3400 psi (can't recall, it has been a long time since I've seen it :lol: ) and I think it's 4 gpm. Just out of curiosity, what were you using? Maybe Rich will see this and chime in with some advice on the wet blasting apparatus.
Oh! Total side note, how did that spreadsheet wind up working out for you? Did I screw anything up on it?
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Carl, I did some mapquesting to see where E Tawas is, about 80 miles from Saginaw. Is that where you have to go to get stuff the local Mom & Pop doesn't have?
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Yup. And sometimes Flint, sometimes down to Detroit. Of course I'm usually pack in when I go down there. I would give a testicle to have the resources you guys have down there in Florida, well for the marine specific stuff.
I guess it's the price I have to pay to live in God's country. :lol:
Work is slow today, can you tell?
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Carl,
My pressure washer is 3000 psi/2.7 gpm. I forget the specs on the sand blaster, but I think yours will work much better than mine did. I did communicate with LilRichard - he did not recall the pressure of his unit (I think he rented it), but said it was very powerful and he had to be careful or it would lake off the gel coat. He also mentioned that it is important to use the proper sand.
The spreadsheet works great - thank you for sending it :thumleft: ! I did check the formulas, and everything looked correct. It is certainly a useful tool to see how the COG changes when moving things around.
Sounds like you have a good plan for the stringers. What density foam are you using?
Keep up the good work!
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I'm glad to hear that you found it helpful, I'm am also happy to have a second set of eyes to double check me.
I bought 4 lbs density for the stringers, mostly because I am afraid I would dent the 2lbs stuff if I have to get aggressive with the laminate roller. The rest of the boat will be the 2lbs foam.
With your input on the wet blaster I think I'll go ahead and order it. If my pressure washer doesnt work, I will see if I can borrow my neighbors. He has a monster one that puts mine to shame.
Thanks Craig! :salut:
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I went with the 4# in my stringers also. Unless you are making superduty stringers like Rick did, I really think the 4# is the way to go. I am not planning on adding foam outside of the stringers, but if I did, it would be 2#.
I'm looking forward to your results with the sand blaster. I really don't want to sand of all the bottom paint. It's bad enough that I have to sand all of the paint off the hull and cap. If you have good luck with it, I will definitely rent a bigger pressure washer.
FYI - after the sand blaster failed for me, I bought a gallon of Klean Strip Aircraft Paint Remover to see if that would be an option. I tested a small section of bottom paint, and I have to admit it worked pretty darn good. Did not get 100% of it, but probably 90%+. It is pricey though. If the sand blaster doesn't work out, I'll probably use this stuff to minimize the amount of sanding I will need to do.
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Another multi-segment post....
Just so you guys don't think I'm a total slacker, only a partial slacker ( :lol: ) I wanted to do an update on how I'm coming along with this stringer experiment. As a recap: I am building trapezoid stringers, but I am going to pour 4lb foam in the boat and use the foam as a lost mold.
I will start off by saying that this whole process is pretty meticulous and has dragged out longer that I thought it would. On second thought, I need to start doubling the amount of time that I think it will take to get a task don and I should be right on schedule. So, after spending about 6 hours re-leveling the boat I was happy with how she is currently sitting. This was so I could shoot my line for the new stringer height. I used a water level and made a few reference marks along the hull so that I could make sure my laser was true. For future reference, I have raised the stringer height 4 1/4". The stringers are going to be 6 1/2" wide at the top, so I should have plenty of surface area for gluing the sole down.
I'm sorry that some of the pics are a little blurry... :?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140409_171342.jpg)
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Once i got my line scribed, I started started building the frames. I attached gussets to the hull sides with hot glue, that way I could adjust my frames to maintain level. Once I got them in, I marked my center line, and started installing the uprights (for lack of a better word) to frame out were the stringer sides will be. I made a template for this...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140412_120439.jpg)
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Once these were in, I set up the laser level again, adjusting the vertical to match the 15 degree angle of the trapezoid and scribed were the stringers will meet the hull.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140412_213835.jpg)
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After the scribing was done I strung out some mason's line to establish where the top corners of the stringers will be. Then I set a mark at 12 inch intervals (starting at the bow) so that I could measure down to the line I had previously made (see pic above). Once I had all of those measurements I could then transfer them to the MDF (which I forgot to take pictures of :roll: ) so that when I dropped the pieces in the would be a match to the (compound) curvature of the hull.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140412_213718.jpg)
Unfortunately, these are all of the pics I have taken so far. I will post more up after I get some foam poured.
Till next time. :salut:
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You're doing a top-notch job there, Carl! Those are going to be some pretty big stringers, which doesn't leave a lot of room between them. How are you going to allow for the tank?
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I will have a "notch" in the stringers (like Rick). Part of the reason i added the extra width at the top was to compensate for the where the tank is going to be. That tank that I bought, after adding the 2 percent for expansion, is 29" x 47", so I put the stringers at 29" on center.
They are so darn tall that they leave quite the footprint on the hull, but at least i see what I have before they are done... If you see and glaring screw-ups please don't hesitate to say something.
Oh, and thank you for the compliment. You need to post some pics of your progress too. Everything you have done so far is very, very impressive. :thumleft:
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Looks like good progress Carl :salut:
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I will have a "notch" in the stringers (like Rick). Part of the reason i added the extra width at the top was to compensate for the where the tank is going to be. That tank that I bought, after adding the 2 percent for expansion, is 29" x 47", so I put the stringers at 29" on center.
They are so darn tall that they leave quite the footprint on the hull, but at least i see what I have before they are done... If you see and glaring screw-ups please don't hesitate to say something.
Oh, and thank you for the compliment. You need to post some pics of your progress too. Everything you have done so far is very, very impressive. :thumleft:
I figured you would have it planned out...just checking though :thumright: . I haven't done much picture-worthy lately. When I do, I'll be sure to capture the moment :roll: and share with you all. Thanks for the words of encouragement!
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Looks awesome Carl! How much slope are you thinking down the deck from bow to stern?
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I raised it 1 1/2" from stern to bow. Also I have the two center stringers 1/2" higher than were the marks are on the hull.
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I think you got a good idea there.... should come out nicer than the factory ones. I can see you have spent considerable time thru all phases of these stringers. Congrats.
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Really like !
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Thank you gents!
A small change of plans after talking with some of the members here... It was brought to my attention that 1/2" of crown may be too much and give an undesired feeling while moving around on the deck, so I am going to go with less. I'm not sure exactly how much, and I can simply adjust the amount by raising where the sole hits the sides of the hull. Honestly, I am reconsidering going with a perfectly level deck since the boat isn't static in the water anyway.... Any input from you guys would be appreciated.
Also, I had hoped to get the foam poured yesterday, but the temps dropped almost 40 degrees. :evil: It takes a little too long to get the garage up to 80ish when it is that cold, so it was not really the best idea to chance it. It is supposed to warm back up for the weekend, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can get it done this weekend.
:salut:
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agree with you on the flat deck logic, I've always figured why put a crown in the deck if you're really never sitting still anyway.
I like the front to back profile too, anything to help the water move back & out is good - hate it when that last little bit of water on deck doesn't want to leave after a good offshore bucket rinse.
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Carl,
I am probably not going to incorporate a crown in my deck. I'm going to lay a straight edge across my 205 to see if it has a crown - I don't think it does - and it does not have any problems draining. I think the crown in the deck will just add unnecessary complexity, especially if the deck has coosa inserts for the tower and console.
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Well, I got tired of waiting for the weather to cooperate with me for pouring this foam, so I got the halogen lights out and cranked the wood stove up! All in all, I think it came out pretty good and I hope to get glass on it by the end of the week and then depending on how the glassing goes I will do the port stringer the same way.
Setting the tank location.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140416_172451.jpg)
Here is after the foam was poured. I rough cut the extra foam from the top and fine tuned the top with a Stanley Sure Form. In the foreground you can see the notch for the tank, the coffin will be 1 1/2" larger than the tank to allow room for the poly tank to expand.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140420_154719.jpg)
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I got so excited about getting this done that I completely omitted two very important steps... :? :oops: 1) I forgot to put mold release on the forms and 2) I forgot that I wanted to set the chase tubes inside of the stringer. What a dumba$$ :!: Oh well, I'll have enough room to run them down the side of the stringer and still have enough room for the planned hatch behind the livewell leaning post.
I had to cut the MDF loose with a hand saw, but it worked out just fine.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140420_175044.jpg)
The stringers are 8" wide at the top, and that leaves 4 1/2" of width where the notch is for the tank.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140420_175557.jpg)
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I forgot to upload one more picture...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140420_175929.jpg)
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Beefy! Whats the laminate going to be?
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3 layers of 1708, doubled in the corners of the coffin. I plan on glassing the stringers firs and complete and then adding and tying in the bulkheads and knees at the transom. Also, I am on the fence about adding a stiffener down the keel...there will be almost 3/8" of glass in that area by the time it's all said and done.
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adding a stiffener down the keel
You could use this
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... +Stiffener (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=57774&familyName=Prisma+Composite+Preforms+Hull+Stiffener) as the price is really cheap for 4 foot sections. Just wet and stick. Then tab the seams
Or this http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... ull+Planks (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=57773&familyName=Prisma+Composite+Preforms+Hull+Planks) for flatter stiffing, Same as above. Or use both, the above for the shapt part of the keel and the plank for the flat part of the keel.
Looking great, Keep the porn a coming :cheers:
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Came out great, Carl :thumleft: . Looks like you only did one stringer so far - are you going to run the chase inside the other stringer? I ran a 3" PVC pipe in each of my stringers. Given the size of your stringers, you may be able to go with 4". That may be enough for everything you plan to install. Of course, you can never have too much chase space....
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Kevin, thank you for the links. That first one is what I had in mind and at that price, I just may go that route.
Craig, yes I only have one done so far. The obvious answer is to just put the chase tubes in the port stringer, but I dont know if the shift and throttle cable will make the bends without binding (maybe Seabob could help with that) since they need to come out of the transom on the port side. The forward bulkhead of the transom cap will be 12" forward of the transom, so I will have 10"or so to make the bend and with a rise of about 12" before the bend to go out through the transom it will be iffy.
I am open to suggestions.
Thanks guys!
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Hey that's a pretty cool idea to pour and shape the foam first. Cool idea. Just proves there is more than one way to skin a cat! :shock: You going to radius the corners a bit to make it easier to lay the mat over it?
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Yes, and I will lay a fillet of thickened epoxy down on the bottom and in the corners of the coffin area too.
I am on the fence about doing an ambient layup or vacuum bagging it.
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Looks good Carl - nice idea :salut:
Be sure to leave way more than you think you'll need for expansion of that tank - don't want to get into the saga I did :oops: All that cloth will fill in your gaps quickly.
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Thank you Rick.
I have 3/4" all the way around for expansion, which by my calculations should be good to go for my size tank.
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Hey that's a pretty cool idea to pour and shape the foam first. Cool idea. Just proves there is more than one way to skin a cat! :shock:
with all the rebuilds going on right now we're seeing a lot of dead kitties :lol:
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Craig, yes I only have one done so far. The obvious answer is to just put the chase tubes in the port stringer, but I dont know if the shift and throttle cable will make the bends without binding (maybe Seabob could help with that) since they need to come out of the transom on the port side.
Good question. I will have one tube (2" if it will fit) going straight from the front of the bilge area to under the console just in case....
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Carl, if you use Teleflex XTreme or Morse 33C Supreme cables, you'll have no problems. Both can do 4" bend radii with no problems. Not that you want to get your bends that tight, but you know what I mean...
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I got ya, thank you Sir. I appreciate it. I may just say the hell with I and put a chase in the port stringer then.
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Wow the stringers came out nice even through the miss haps. The pipe in the stringer for your wires would have been really cool too but....
It seems like every plan has a way of changing. Looks really good though. :salut:
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Thanks Fish. I'm in the same frame of mind about the rigging tubes... I'm over it. :lol:
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Second verse, same as the first...
I started moving the forms to the port side last night. I was very happy to verify that the boat hasn't shifted and the forms from the starboard side match the hull perfectly on the port. :cheers:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140423_194444.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/20140423_194459.jpg)
The original plan was to completely build the stringers one side at a time, but now I am going to glass them both at the same time and have an overlap of glass down the keel. This will beef up the hull there and should eliminate the need for reinforcement down the center. I will alternately lay the glass so that the both stringers will become one piece once it is all said and done.
I have also decided that the rigging tubes will run down the stringers instead of inside of them.
Now it's just down to waiting for the weekend, the temps are supposed to be 15 degrees higher than today...
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Looking good, Carl :thumleft: gotta ask...did you remember to put release agent on the forms on this one?
Also, did you include drain tubes to allow water from the outboard cavities to reach the bilge?
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Looking good, Carl gotta ask...did you remember to put release agent on the forms on this one?
Also, did you include drain tubes to allow water from the outboard cavities to reach the bilge?
LOL! :lol: Yes, and thank you for looking out. I did mine like yours, all the way in the back at the transom. I'll have to get pics of that too, I guess.
I used 1" schedule 30 PVC for the drains.
Have you had time to mess with the Fire Boat at all lately? I'm going through rebuild porn withdrawals... :wink:
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Custom fuel tank?
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No, well not custom that I ordered anyway. It is a new old stock tank for a Chapparal boat, 55 gallon.
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Have you had time to mess with the Fire Boat at all lately? I'm going through rebuild porn withdrawals... :wink:
Unfortunately not too much. I did order a console and a half tower though :D . I wanted to get the console before I install the deck so that I can make sure everything matches up and I can reinforce where needed. Then I decided to take advantage of the deal Randy is offering on the Vendor's forum for a tower (free leaning post). I am certainly no where close to needing the tower yet, but his prices are very good and he sounds like a good guy who is trying to get his business rolling. I figured I could help in that regard. Plus, I'm hoping that having a nice shiny new tower sitting around will give me some added motivation :thumright: . As for the leaning post, I always wanted one in the 205. So it will likely end up in her, as I plan to build a livewell like yours for the flatback.
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Looks great, love the way you are going about your stringers. Everything looks great. Im hoping to have some more time soon to go back and read all the back post on your build.
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Any progress Carl? Warming up there yet?
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Been on the road for work. Haven't done much besides the stringers, I'll get some pics up shortly.
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Well, I never did get around to uploading pics, but I wanted to give this thread a bump so I thought I would give a quick update. I haven't worked on the boat in quite some time, mostly due to traveling for work. Now my kiddos are home for summer break and I don't like push them into work that they dont want to do. So, I dont know how much I will get done before the middle of August.
Other than that, I was lucky enough to get the porta-bracket that was in the classified section. It is scheduled to be here on Friday. Hopefully I will get around to post some pics then.
Other than that, I'll be lurking and watching your posts! :salut:
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Good to "see" you buddy. Enjoy the summer and them kiddies.
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My Porta-Bracket showed up yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would post pics, but I am an idiot and managed to delete all of my folders, so I will wait to see if a restore can be done on the gallery. That means no point in adding pics as they will be wiped out... :eye:
Having said that, I wanted give a public Thank You to Mr. & Mrs. WannabeDeepSea. :salut: They were awesome to deal with on the purchase, very honest and just plain old good people. They really embody the spirit of this site, and I would not hesitate to buy any of the other items they have if I needed them. I wish you guys the best with getting the rest sold off! :cheers:
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Hey Cally, did you get a chance to try the gallery on the new site?
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Well, for those of you that remember I had a rebuild goning at some point, LOL! I have regained my motivation to get back on the project and after removing a lot of random stuff out of the boat and a good cleaning I got started again.
Since I managed to wipe out all of my pictures :bangbang2: I will work on getting them all uploaded again. However, as a quick refresher I boat a boat that the P.O. installed a transducer on, didn't seal it and as a consequence waterlogged the foam, kept the stringers wet (which mostly disbonded from the hull), and had a very soft transom. As time permits I will backfill the pictures, but for now here is the quick version...
A good (bad) boat.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20120825_152838.jpg)
Sole removed
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20121124_092238.jpg)
New stringer foam going in (male mold/lost mold)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20140416_172451.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20140423_194421.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20140423_194459.jpg)
Pretty much where I am at right now. The fairing was because I got a little crazy with my sure-form... Oops.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20150512_175647.jpg)
I have a little more I want to do and I'll be laying glass. The foam is 4lbs foam, and I plan on going with 3 layers of 1708 on the two stringers. Then I will be adding bulkeads which will also be covered with three layers of 1708. Should be pretty stout, but not massive overkill.
Tlak to you later.
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I didn't go back and re-read this thread yet but will, did you decide on how you're going to do the diver door?
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Welcome back Carl! We missed you, man!
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Thanks Craig! I am glad to be back.
Rick, the door itself will remain stock/original. The open/lock/latch mechanism is going to get an upgrade though. I have it worked out in my head but I haven't put it to paper yet. Please standby on that one.
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No new pics, but one of my indecisions let to a decision... After reading reviews online and hearing a first hand account from a friend, I have decided to go with EMC paints and placed an order with Shine (Gufstream Composites) today. As expected, the transaction was smooth..... I am really looking forward to using this paint. The DOI is suppose to be amazing and it is repairable. I can't even express my excitement at using this product....
*EDIT* I had originally posted this from my phone and it autocorrected some words that I didn't catch.
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I'll be watching. I'm still on the fence as to what to use as a top coat.
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Rick, I will be spraying everything, but the majority of the reviews/posts I have seen the paint was applied by roller application. Apparently no tipping is needed because of the leveling ability of this paint. Also, I had the head painter at work take a look at the Spec sheet from EMC for the Quantum 99 and he said that it looks very similar to Jet Glo, which is what we used to use on out airplanes before we switched to a cheaper paint.
As a side note... I am going with cream (Joel said it is very close to Awlgrip's cream color) on everything. I was originally thinking I would do the sides a different color, but as a wise man once said, "boats are supposed to be white".
One other quick side note... Yesterday was the first time I had talked to Joel on the phone and I wanted to let everyone know that he is one hell of a nice guy! Very personable and very willing to help in any way that he can. I can tell you that he made a lifelong customer out of me after talking with him.
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I was originally thinking I would do the sides a different color, but as a wise man once said, "boats are supposed to be white".
Can't go wrong with white. But I'm still on the fence on this. White always looks good, but a color can set it apart from the masses. I'm torn between white and seafoam green. May come down to a flip of a coin.
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Craig, I like the Seafoam too. I sent you a P.M..
Up here in Michigan a 22' boat that can go as skinny as these flattys can sets itself apart plenty. More than once I had another boat come up to us to see if we were stuck while fishing the river....and that was only one season LOL! I can't wait to see what she'll do being quite a bit lighter.
Until next time!
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First off, I owe Rick a picture from a very long time ago... Rick, I told you that my original stringers had a "stiffener" built in. Well, I finally took a pic of a section I have in the shop.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150525_140531.jpg)
Secondly, I finally got some glass on the stringers. They are far from done, as I will be adding the bulkheads and the knees and then a final "veil" layer to tie everything together.
You will see in the pictures that there isn't any glass on the forward and aft sections of the coffin, this is because I will cover this area when I place the bulkheads in.
I did all of the lay-ups by myself with medium hardener in 65-70 degree temps. Thank goodness it wasn't warmer because it was really pushing the edge of how fast I can work. I did my typical method of wetting out on the table, but with these long pieces I roll them on a piece of pvc to make it easier to place in the boat. I mark everything out with guidelines to minimize the amount of pulling/shifting of the glass once it is in place. All said and done, I had about 4 hours from start to finish.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150531_122414.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150602_203323.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150602_203311.jpg)
Til next time! :103:
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Top notch work as usual, Carl :clap01:
What size fuel tank are you going to put in there? I guess it is fairly narrow? I ended up basically notching the inner sides of my stringers to fit my tank.
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The full length shots by yourself must have been tough and yet it still came out superb :13:
The stiffeners where split PVC? That's different. Maybe you could have run wires through them also?
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The full length shots by yourself must have been tough and yet it still came out superb :13:
The stiffeners where split PVC? That's different. Maybe you could have run wires through them also?
Thanks Rick, not as nice as yours though.... The stiffener (???) was just molded into the shape. In fact, if you look closely you can see that it is just filled with bedding compound. strengthening the top of the stringer is the only purpose I can see it serving.
Top notch work as usual, Carl :clap01:
What size fuel tank are you going to put in there? I guess it is fairly narrow? I ended up basically notching the inner sides of my stringers to fit my tank.
Thanks Craig, it is a 55 gallon poly tank, 28"x 44"x 12".
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Carl, in hind-sight I think your way of making the form of the stringer is the way to go - what simplicity - genius. :salut2:
I wish I would have thought of it.
That's the beauty of this site is there are so many things you can learn from other members as they do a rebuild. I learned the "weighing" resin method from you too and it is spot on for mixing resin quantities - any kind of resin.
For the members that are doing a rebuild, if you have a question don't hesitate to ask, that's what this site is about. If you're lucky and a Master Rebuilder comes into the conversation to offer help it doesn't mean they are an expert, just that they made it through a rebuild and have probably made the mistakes you don't want to and can advise what not to do along with what worked for them.
We're all here to help. We don't do this for a living, we're just guys and gals with boats that need fixin' and need and/or offer help.
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Well, after a few days of going back and forth on how I wanted to approach doing my bulkheads, I settled on vacuum bagging the skins onto the foam. The foam btw, is a 3lbs density foam (from work :shhh:)... I am not sure of the actual brand, but the composites guys told me it is a high quality product, so I'm in.
Anyway, I did 3 layers of 1708 for the skin, this will reinforced with four layers of 1708 tape once I place them into the boat. This should compensate for the lower density of the foam and give me a transverse lamination (between the longitudinal stringers/hull and the bulkheads) of roughly 7/16", plenty to transfer the forces across the foam.
I started bagging last night and left them under pressure until this morning. I haven't removed them from the bag yet, but I will after work and get some pics of the finished pieces posted.
The point where I remembered to take pictures... I decided on two separate bags because of the ease of handling. On the right I have the R/H bulkheads already under pressure, on the left are the L/H bulkheads ready to be wet out.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150609_205524.jpg)
Both bags going... Note the vise grips clamping off the left bag.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150609_214820.jpg)
I could only pull 26ish inHg, which may have been a full pull for the day???
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150609_214832.jpg)
Picked up a full roll of spiral wrap on ebay for a good price, this stuff makes great manifold material.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150609_201422.jpg)
I get some pics up after work tonight.
Have a good day everyone! :49:
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Awesome!
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I got them out of the bag, and I have to say, for not using peel ply and bleeder cloth I think they came out pretty good.
I still need to clean up the excess resin that was pulled from the glass, but you should get the idea.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150610_170423_1_.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150610_170450_1_.jpg)
cae out pretty flat and fair
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150610_170533_1_.jpg)
Like I said in my previous post, the core is a 3lbs density foam. The reason there is a piece of 2x4 on it is because I want to do a quick (and very unscientific) test of the compressive strength with the 3 layers of 1708 (epoxy resin) on it. Well, I am 220lbs and I could stand and bounce on that piece of 2x4 (on end, as it sits in the pic) and it felt as solid as the concrete floor underneath it. Yes, I am very happy about that.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150610_170643_1_.jpg)
Until next time,
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Sweet :whistle:
Nicely done Carl :great02:
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This is a good illustration of the "sandwich" composition I was referring to in Que Pasa's rebuild thread. You can see how with little increase in actual structural strength you can still equate to a huge increase in functional ability. The fact that you "point loaded" your component is even more telling in how much you gained in both aspects.
Great stuff. :great02:
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Thanks for the kind words.
I just wet out and got the last of the bulkheads under vacuum. I got a perfect seal right away! :weehee: :woohoo:
I'll let these guys sit overnight and planning on installing them tomorrow.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150612_183401.jpg)
Sorry for the blurry picture...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150612_183418.jpg)
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Does the vacuum pump run constantly?
I haven't used my setup since I did the floor and hatches, which seems like years ago :? I was thinking then that I needed a storage tank of sorts to give the pump a break.
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Depends... I have let it run for 8-10 hours and I have clamped off the bag and let it go. If the bag is sealing 100% then clamping is my preference, but if I want to make sure I have good pressure on the part throughout the cure I will leave the pump run. My pump is an A/C pump (oiled pump), and I am not afraid to let it run all night if that is what it takes to get a good laminate.
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Got the bulkheads in today. I still have the forward transom closure to install (as a bulkhead) and one more for under the livewell, but it is something new to post, so here it is...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150616_195017.jpg?113)
The "rod locker" (only the one side shown) which will also serve as a fish hold sometimes... Note; this area spans the dive door area. This will ensure access to the hinges.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150616_195054.jpg)
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Looks really stout Carl :tu4:
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Man, that is a clean job you are doing. Looks great!
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Carl
When adding the bulkheads is there any concern about creating hard points on the hull. I have been going over this and would like to do bulkheads in mine as well.
Chuck
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Thanks Craig and Rick! :singing:
Chuck, no concern, if done properly...which is really simple. Just make sure you leave at least a 1/4" or so gap around the perimeter, then fill the gap with thickened resin. This will create even pressure around the bulkhead and eliminate the hard spots.
If you need some more explanation I'll be glad to do my best to help! :salut:
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I have also seen PL used to hold bulkhead in place about the 1/4" up then glass in. What do you think of that system
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I have also seen PL used to hold bulkhead in place about the 1/4" up then glass in. What do you think of that system
I suppose... I haven't personally used it, but I have read about it. It seems like people are having really good success using it. I would say go for it, I mean you are really going to get the majority of your strength from the composite sandwich anyway, the PL would just (more of less) be a filler. As long as it is a fairly dense(which I assume it is) material and truly "locking" the component in its place, as opposed to being spongy, I think it will be just fine. The only down side I can see is it being more expensive by the time everything is all side and done.
One quick question... What types of core material and resin are you using?
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Thanks for the reply. I still have some time before I get to the bulkheads. I'm adding 1780 across the entire hull bottom. For the transom I have Bluewater 1 1/2" Cosa . I have always used poly but upgraded to vinyl ester for this on. I am using epoxy for the transom to outer skin bond.
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Good deal, North! Coosa is some pretty awesome stuff, plus it wille never rot. If i was to go back and do it over I would have used coosa too, oh well.... Too late now.
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This may not be a big deal to anyone else, but it made me pretty happy...
After being in the shop for the last three years, not moving, not seeing the light of day, I finally got the boat out of the shop! The trailer that came with her, well....sucked. Really sucked... The boat sat almost two feet off of the ground and was a nightmare to launch and recover. I plan on buying a nice new aluminum trailer, but I happen to stumble across a free bass boat trailer tat is actually in really good shape, so I am going to spend my trailer money on other thing for now and put that off for a few years. Hell, after all I live in Michigan, and there isn't any salt water here, LOL!
She fits pretty good. I cut off the outer two bunks, but she is only going to be right side up for a few more hours anyway.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150620_123834.jpg)
She sits much, much lower. This makes me very happy.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150620_124006.jpg)
I forgot how big this freaking boat is! Now wonder I got sick of grinding the inside of her.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150620_124443.jpg)
This enjoyment will be short lived. Next on the agenda for today is to get her flipped... Wish me luck!
Talk to you later.
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Can't beat the deal Carl and it does fit nicely. :coolth:
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Between this trailer and the ports bracket, you have found some great deals! What is your plan for flipping her?
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Between this trailer and the ports bracket, you have found some great deals! What is your plan for flipping her?
I know, and I am very thankful for it too.
As for the flip... I had a few people lined up to give a hand with the flip, but that didn't exactly happen. So, there wound up being three of us and my tractor to make it happen. I wasn't as bad as I thought it would be with three people, but it was harder than I planned on working and I felt bad for the two that did show up to help. My back hurts, and I'll leave that at that and show some pics.
First, to lift her off of the trailer. I used a 6"x 2"x 8' steel C channel for the spreader bar and some nylon straps. Easy-peasy!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150620_175119.jpg)
A quick profile shot. These old Flattys really have a lobster boat profile. Beautiful if you ask me!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150620_175143.jpg)
Sorry, but I didn't get any pictures of the process of the flip. Here she is blocked up and sitting back on the trailer.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150620_192044.jpg)
She is now back in the shop and NO DAMAGE!!!!!!!!! :weehee: :singing: :woohoo:
Now, time to go to town sanding the left over spots of bottom paint.
Happy Fathers day everyone! :103:
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Good job! I know I was pretty nervous when they flipped mine. I was just waiting for them to drop it or something to break.
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That's a great milestone to achieve :salut2: Glad it went safely and smoothly.
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I was very nervous about something breaking and the boat crashing to the ground. Now I am very focused on getting her sanded down and faired.. Then I can flipper her back over, get her painted and get her done!
Should be in the water by the weekend.... :s_laugh:
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You better pass me a little of what you're smoking - I need that magic too :laugh03:
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Lol, I didn't know you moonlight as a comedian!
As far as sequence goes, you might consider painting her before the flip. Should be much easier, I would think.
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Lol, I didn't know you moonlight as a comedian!
As far as sequence goes, you might consider painting her before the flip. Should be much easier, I would think.
Firstly, my second career as a comedian fizzled out years ago, LOL!!!!
Secondly, I have been thinking quite a bit about your recommendation. I think I might just paint her before I flip her, but man I don't want to screw up a new paint job though. Keep in mind I don't have a rotisserie, I have to use straps...and the straps plus a green paint job. Yikes. I don't know I guess I still have time to make up my mind.
In other news, I started getting the bottom cleaned up. I had purchased a blasting attachment for my pressure washer quite some time ago which finally got put to use. I have to say I was pretty impressed with it! My expectations were pretty low, but it did a great job at stripping away the top coat paint and bottom paint. It isn't the fastest thing in the world, but much faster that sanding or scraping for sure, and I did a quarter of the hull with less than 80lbs of medium sand ($8.35 per bag). Much less expensive than the amount of sand paper of grinding disks I would have used to clean the same area.
Here is the box. I don't know why I didn't take a picture of the pressure washer with it all put together????
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150624_205531_1_.jpg)
So, I only had about an hour to mess around, and the amount of paint I removed (I thought) was pretty good for the amount of time I spent on it. Of course, I will have to go back over it again with the sander and clean it up better for paint, but I suppose you get the idea. BTW, there are multiple layers of bottom paint to contend with.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150624_205210_1_.jpg)
I should have some more pics by the weekend.
Until next time...
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Looks really good for an hour of work only. Jeez, I battled my bottom paint on the 230 for weeks and finally gave in and let them sand blast it.
You could build some gantries to flip the boat like I used to flip mine. Might come in handy later around the shop?
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What size pressure washer are you using? I tried that on my bottom paint, but it didn't do too much for me and I ended up sanding. I figured my PW wasn't up to the task (I think it was like 2.5 gpm @ 3000 psi). And yes, I used a lot of sandpaper.
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I'll double check when I get home, but i am pretty sure mine is the same specs... I'll take some pics of my setup tonight too.
I was using quikrete medium sand, 80lbs bag though.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uWxWCDvEVIQ/maxresdefault.jpg)
Rick, I am also giving thought to building a gantry...
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Craig, Sorry for the delay....
My pressure washer is 2600 psi, 2.5 gpm. I first used a 5 gallon bucket like the instructions suggested, but I went through it so fast I decided to just fill a 55 gallon drum. This way I could just keep on going without having to keep filing the bucket back up. The only persistent issue I had is the suction hose kept collapsing. I plan on getting some reinforced hose the next time I go to the hardware to fix that. Overall, I have to say it works pretty well!
Here is my setup for the wet blaster.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150628_100011.jpg)
I used a scrap of OSB to make a lid for the drum. I stuffed a rag on the hole to help keep water out.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150628_100038.jpg)
They only thing is to make sure you put it where you want it, before you fill it up! LOL!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150628_100057.jpg)
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I had the same problem with my hose, and I replaced it just as you are doing. But I still didn't have much success. I'm glad it is working for you - should make things much easier. Have you removed enough of the bottom paint to get a good look at the gelcoat? Hopefully it is not all crazed like mine.
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Have you removed enough of the bottom paint to get a good look at the gelcoat? Hopefully it is not all crazed like mine.
Yes I have, and yes it has a bunch of crazing, but it is limited to the area round the end of the skeg. I suspect this is where the (ill fitted) old trailer used to hit the boat first. It is also where the old stringers were disbonded about the worst. Also, I am very happy to report that there is only a very slight hook (which I believe is supposed to be there) like 1/16th or so, if even that much. So fairing should be pretty straight forward.
The bigger problem I have is that some a-hole used a grinder on the forward portion of the bottom in a fairly large area, and they were not very cautious at all. :a0002:
I am pretty sure I will wind up going down past the gelcoat before I get the marks out of it...
Here's where I left off yesterday. Thank goodness for good weather! The forward left looks like it isn't sanded all of the way, but it is actually the deep scratches with paint in them. The forward right is where I ran out of sand for blasting. I am very happy with the job the blast did, as I have only used 8 pieces of sandpaper so far on the outside! Seems like money well spent.
Oh, and the sides are done too. They are in really good shape.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150627_182225.jpg)
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Looks like you made good progress Carl.
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Excellent progress and good news (for the most part) on the condition!
I assume you are going to extend the keel? I brought mine to within 10-12" of the transom. I'm not sure it would be detrimental to go all the way to the transom if you want, since your engine is going to be at least 17" further back on the porta bracket.
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Thanks guys. I really just want to get a coat of primer on her so i can really see where I am at with fairing.
As far as the keel/skeg extension, I honestly never gave it a though. I know you haven't had the opportunity to run yours yet, but they will spin withing their own length at lower speeds (like an old American Skier with the fins in the center of the boat). I really don't want to alter that handling characteristic, and I didn't really think that the higher speed handling was all that terrible either. I have been kicking around putting splash rails on it. I do recall water creeping up to the rub rail in really sharp turns, and think they will help quite a bit.
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I keep thinking about spray rails also. If I could find a set at a reasonable price, I probably would do it. But shipping costs are significant, so I will most likely skip them.
Other members have complained about high speed handling, leading to the keel extension. Glad to hear that you don't think it is all that bad. I have actually considered adding a set of additional strakes to the bottom, maybe 3-4' long and about 2' off center, to help prevent sliding at speed. But I'm not ready to go that far outside the box yet.
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You guys are certainly at that "decision time" for a set of spray rails. What pricing were you seeing Craig (and shipping)?
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The only brand I could get a price on was Smart Rails, and yes they were very proud of those. So I am thinking about building them myself. Still on the fence though.
About the high speed handling of a flatback... It is simply NOT a high performance hull. It is like driving a Jon boat...you are not turning on a dime at 30 mph. As long as you understand and respect what it's strong suit is and it's design limitations are you are all set. I regularly ran mine in two completely different environments and never had any issues with the performance of the hull in the open water of Lake Huron or the winding channel of the Ausable River. The river narrows to less than 60 feet in many areas and winds through several 90 degree or better turns and it can easily be navigated with a flatback at 20 mph or better. Does it slip? Sure... My thoughts are to be a good Captain and throttle back... Would the longer keel help? Maybe. How much? I don't know? My bottom line here is not to plan on making this hull something it isn't.
Personally, I don't know that you can without some very heavy modifications, like the stakes Craig spoke of. And speaking of strakes, I would be inclined to build "reverse" strakes so that they bite in during a turn as opposed to "planing" strakes that you normally see on current hulls.
Just my two cents, and bouncing some ideas off of you guys.
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You guys are certainly at that "decision time" for a set of spray rails. What pricing were you seeing Craig (and shipping)?
It's been quite a while, and I don't remember the exact amount, but it was something like $150 for a set of spray rails, and about the same for shipping. The material itself wasn't too bad, but I have a hard time paying that much for shipping. I think I got the quote from Barbour Plastics.
Carl - I appreciate your feedback on the handling of the flatbacks. I'm certainly not trying to make mine into a race boat, but I don't want it sliding too much in the turns either. Extending the keel is something that many have recommended before us. How much it helps, I don't know. But if it is going to help at all, now is the time to do it, IMO. And as you can see on my thread, I have already done it.
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Craig, I certainly did not mean that post as a dig on you. I guess I was intending it more as a food for thought on all those considering modifications. I am sure that extending the skeg will help with slipping, but how much I am not sure.
I hope you didn't take my post that way. Hell, there is only the two of us that even post in this forum anyway....
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LOL, no, I didn't take that as a dig. I appreciate the sounding board and feedback. Having never actually been on a flatback in the water, I look forward to your insights.
And there are some more flatback rebuilds on the horizon...hopefully with lots of pics and more ideas :weehee:
BTW, I just got back from getting some more supplies from my local builder. I asked them to get a price on spray rails. They use Barbour Plastics as their source for these as well as rubrails (I think). Maybe I could get a break on shipping if they have any other orders going in. I hope to hear back this afternoon or tomorrow.
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I finished getting all of the bottom paint off! :danceSm: Now I need to make a decision on good enough...
After I finished up with the bottom paint (I still have some work to do on the transom) I washed her down and noticed that the bottom is wavy. It isn't as noticeable in the pictures, but it looks like the pressure points from a roller trailer. I am not sure if I am going to fill them or not, I mean the boat ran fine with them there before and it is the bottom.
Any input is welcome. :tu:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150702_203529.jpg)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/759/20150702_203534.jpg)
Thanks!
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Congrats on getting the bottom paint off - big milestone :thumleft:
I am not the person to tell you when it's good enough - I am still fighting that myself :shrug:
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I am fighting a lot of waviness on my hull sides right now. It makes my bottom look good, and yours looks much better than mine. I am going to do some quick touch up on my bottom, but I'm not going for perfection there. It's up to you, but I would probably not spend too much time on the bottom.
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ive seen new boats with bottoms wavier than that... looks good!
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Thank you guys for the input. :salut2:
I will just address the few areas I need to fix and leaves the rest as is.
To all of us in the U.S.A., Happy and safe 4th! Please never forget that we founded this great country in opposition to tyranny and oppression. Let's keep those principles alive and well for our future generations to enjoy. :aom:
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Well said Carl. Happy 4th!