Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Osprey Style Hull Rebuilds => 191 Rebuilds => Topic started by: umecheme on May 20, 2019, 07:27:28 AM
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Ok, Looks like I'm in the right forum now. Picked up this 19-1 on CL after lots of shopping. Looking forward to refinishing. Needs a lot of work but I'm excited.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/image1100.jpeg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18340&title=bringing-it-home&cat=500)
Didn't get the E-tec with it... so a repower is in order.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20190428_142316.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18339&title=bringing-it-home&cat=500)
$250 in new trailer tires to get it home...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20190518_141623.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18410&title=things-to-fix&cat=500)
Apparently the PO liked to beach her out.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20190518_140331.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18411&title=things-to-fix&cat=500)
Got a little dry rot here boss... thats ok, every boats got it... every boat....
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looks pretty decent on the outside, hows the deck?
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Spongy.... I forsee myself shopping for marine plywood in the near future...
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I'm assuming this is the "Pad" to which you all refer to?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190518_141934.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18413&title=pad&cat=864)
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The strakes on the hull continue all the way to the transom. Only Aquasport hull like this.
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Hmmm... ripped the console off today and did some pressure washing. I say ripped, I basically puller all the stripped out screws that used to hold the console down. Anyway, the 18 gallon tank I thought I had is actually a 28 gallon. I know there was an option for a 28 gallon tank. Were these poly tanks originally?
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On my 170 it was aluminum.
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Console is off!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190616_134110.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18752&title=console-removal&cat=864)
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That’s most likely not the original tank. I can’t speak to exactly what AS did on that model/year, but red poly fuel tanks are meant for above deck portable uses, not permanent. Most likely the a previous owner replaced the original corroded aluminum tank on the cheap. Are you going to keep the tank in the console? Or go with a below deck tank?
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yeah that is not the original tank. Definitely was aluminum back then.
(https://y.yarn.co/6190c257-1793-428a-9309-8b148aa5d750_text.gif)
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Not sure yet on the tank... I'm afraid if i don't go below deck, I'll regret it. Can never have enough storage. I'm thinking I may do something different up front, Not sure the casting deck is a great design as is for storage. Anybody done any re-designs around this? I think the 19-6 storage hatches look more useable. The deck is a little punky in places, so I've decided to take the plunge and cut the whole thing off. The boat seems heavy, I'm guessing there's some water soaked foam in my future.
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I believe the 19-1 fuel tank was under the console and not under the deck. Now if you replace the deck you can do what ever you want. If you do go below deck I'd make a fuel tank hatch for later access.
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All the older 19's have a relatively narrow space between the factory stringers - I did some searching before I found one that fit between the stringers & had decent capacity, and was low enough that the fill hose fitting was below the deck.
Made by Moeller, don't remember the part # but it's a little over 28 gallons, think I got it from Great Lakes Skipper or Jamestown Distributors.
You'll have to come up with a support system for the tank & get creative with the fill & vent hose but in my opinion is worth the effort.
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I've got some pics of the stringer layout of a 19-1 in my album, if you pull the deck I'd recommend glassing the stringers thru the forward bulkhead - theres a gap there from the factory.
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dbiscayne I'm confused. The pic you attached shows a "knee" on the stringers to the transom but the other pics in your gallery show the typical connection to the transom. Is the pic you posted an "after" pic?
If the OP has the same stringer layout I see plenty of room for a tank under the sole, can't be tall but you could also raise the height of the stringers too.
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transom knees were my doing, width between the stringers isn’t too bad at the top but gets skinnier down towards the hull. Should have said I had a hard time finding a decent pre-made tank that would fit, a custom aluminum wouldnt be a problem at all.
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Did you end up running the 110 Evinrude from the pics? I picked up a similar vintage 120 Evinrude, just curious on how it went and how it sat in the water.
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yes on running the 110, all those old 4 cylinder 2 strokes are light enough they won't cause a problem with how the boat sits.
my 110 is a crossflow design, your 120 is a looper like the 140 and is supposed to be a better/higher revving more powerful design.
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Yeah, its a larger bore, and i think like 50 lbs heavier. Did you end up leaving the liner in on your deck replacement?
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yes left the liner in.
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As i prep to cut the deck out, any suggestions on how i leave this in the best shape to reattach it?
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Demo Day! Every time I start cutting into something, I'm like "Oh its better than I thought." Then I cut deeper, and no its not... Oh well, Lots of wet foam that won't be slowing me down. Figured I owed everyone a token empty hull shot.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190623_163136.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18775&title=20190623-163136&cat=864)
Not-So-Dry Rot
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190623_142441.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18774&title=not-so-dry-rot&cat=864)
New Badges...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190623_163717.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18776&title=20190623-163717&cat=864)
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where’d you find the badges?
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peteseminole@gmail.com I'm pretty happy with them. Cost was about what I would have spent on a decent set of decals.
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Wet.....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190630_150109.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=18794&title=20190630-150109&cat=864)
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I think you'll find the foam closer to the front dry.
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Rick, you are correct, the stuff way up front is dry...
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One of the two outermost stringers is empty... I'm probably making things way worse than they have to be by digging it out through the original openings. Solid 2 hours of really nasty work. Also, what is the concrete-like material that was originally used to level up the stringers for the deck, and what should I use when I'm doing the same.
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Yeah digging out stringer foam is no fun. There are a lot of different ways of doing it. I just cut the tops off and popped it out every few inches with a pry bar.
That concrete stuff is the bonding putty they used at the factory. It chips off pretty easy with a hammer and chisel. Just remember to wear eye protection. FGCI sells it for about $45 a gallon for the poly based or you can use epoxy if you don't mind spending a little more.
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Mike B, if you decide to use TB Mike's suggestion (which is the smart way) I would add that you should leave a couple inch strap of the original glass across the stringer top every few feet to keep the shape of the stringers. Check the stringer bond to the hull for good bonding.
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for the stringers in the middle, there seems to be plenty of open space to dig around. its the stringers on the outside that are a B to dig out. It would probably save me some time to cut more of the stringer tops off... but i'll probably just keep beating my head off the wall and dig out through the existing holes but we'll see. It sucks.
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One other thing I forgot to mention. When you go to pour the new foam, make sure to brace the sides well, especially if you don't have the tops completely open. I clamped a 2x4 to the side of mine and one of them still bowed out a little bit in the middle. That foam has a surprising amount of force behind it when expanding.
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Do you anticipate me having issues with the stringers as they sit now? right now they are almost completely closed, but they should have sufficient support in the cross direction so they can't bow out. Unless there is a fear that it will pop the stringers off the hull??? Am i better off pouring small batches sequentially into each stringer, so it can expand upward not outward until it is close to being full? All advice is greatly appreciated
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Here is a pic of when I did mine. Notice the outside of the starboard stringer where it bows out just a bit. It didn't cause any issues luckily so it's more of just something to keep in mind. Just like you, I figured the foam would expand straight up but it seems to go everywhere once it starts to harden.
I believe your stringer grid is a little different so you may be ok, especially if you leave some of the top on.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20180729_153157.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=17428&title=20180729-153157&cat=500)
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So Im 95% done with cleaning out wet foam... if you had told me i would have pulled 3-400 lbs of wet foam out of the bottom, id have called you crazy based on how dry it looked. Glad i bit the bullet and cleaned all that weight out.
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So i find myself at a crossroad... there is some rot in the transom. Looks like several inches of the wood in the transom near where the crack on the cap seam is. Not all the way across, just in places. Only the rear piece of plywood is soft. Id guess 85% of the transom is solid, but damp. Do i bite the bullet and cut it out. Do i let it dry and fill the gaps with resin.. I never intended this to be a 100% resto... and dont really want to do the transom... but also dont want to be doing it in 3 years... any advice appreciated...
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20190825_163744.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19120&title=20190825-163744&cat=500)
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20190825_180054.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19121&title=20190825-180054&cat=500)
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If you are going to keep the boat, I would just dive in and do the entire transom. You'll feel much better knowing it has been done and done correctly.
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My biggest concern is that your transom is just like your stringers in that it seems relatively dry but is actually soaked. If water got in it's going to keep rotting things out
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If you're concerned about cutting the transom out there is an alternative - Seacast. You cut the top off the transom, use a chain saw to dig out the wood, clean it up as well as you can and dam up any holes in the transom so the seacast can't drip out, either out the back into the boat. Then you pour the composite new transom.
Here is a link to Lar's topic on using Seacast. https://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=12508.msg148473#msg148473
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Screw it. I'm going to pour a Jack and Coke when I get home, and cut it out. Best way is cut the inside skin out and chisel the wood out??? Go big or go home!
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Yes, the best way for most transoms is to cut out the inside skin. It’s thinner than the outside skin, so you’re leaving more structure in place when you build your new transom. Have you thought about your core? Plywood? Coosa? Something else?
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Good plan. It is the right thing to do. No sense in going through this much work and stopping short on one of the most important structural components. As for removal methods, I was advised during my transom tear-out to use a skilsaw with the depth set just short of the outside skin and to cut a grid pattern into the core and then you can pry those smaller blocks out. It worked wonderfully. I then went in and tuned up the rest with a combination of flap disks and sanding disks on the angle grinders.
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https://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=14731.0
Checkout Marco’s response to how he used Seacast to repair transom. If I had a chance for a do over I would have used his method unless I was going for a fully enclosed transom. Good Luck
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My $.02. If your plan is to not do anything to the stringers or the sole then Seacast makes sense as you're not cutting any of the liner, cap, etc. It is a little work though but there are examples to follow - I see you reached out to Lars - he'll answer you soon.
If you are unsure of the stringers or the sole is shot then yes, removing the transom core from inside the boat makes sense. I cut the liner (front of the transom) free and pried it off then using a circular saw I cut 2" wide strips of transom and cut it almost to the transom glass and then used an air chisel to peel it off the transom glass. Makes it very easy. If you can find a long chisel, it's even easier.
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I'd love to not touch the cap, liner, and stringers. Do you have to take the cap off to put plywood in? I'm sure there's 15 ways to do it, and 50 different opinions. I'm contemplating making battery boxes for either back corner, so i think i can live with cutting the liner, but i'd love to not take the cap off and rebuild the back foot of stringers. Me and Jasper Newton Daniel are looking the situation over. I'm going to give this a couple days thought before getting the angle grinder out and committing.... $800 worth of Seacast might be the better option, even though my gut is telling me to replace it with marine plywood...
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Jasper says I'm not putting enough value on my time... and just buy the Seacast....
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Again, if you intend to tear into this boat, then you can use wood, like I did in my rebuild for the transom core.
The question is what is below deck. The stringers are trapezoid design with foam filling - 2 on your boat plus 2 on the outer edges - are they soaked?
https://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=14284.msg141517#msg141517
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Rick,
The stringer foam was soaked. Have all the foam out. At this point with basically everything open, i think i cut the rear foot off the stringers, lift the cap in the back, and replace the plywood...
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Give yourself more room - like 18". Usually the overlap as you laminate is 4", 8" and 12". You'll do that once on the transom skin itself, then add core with troweled thickened resin and fillets and finally do the 3 lams with 4,8 and 12" overlap. By the time you're done your lams should put you about 16-17" out from original transom skin.
And also add this into your plan:
Here is a link to where I explain the thought of the PVC pipe
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133124#msg133124
Here is a link to where I show what is actual problem
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133556#msg133556
Here is a link to Hawgleg's rebuild that shows the PVC pipe installation to keep a drain at the new low point of the boat
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg134262#msg134262
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Rick, the boat had a surprising amount of water in the bilge when i popped the deck off. Maybe its the way its sitting on the trailer. The tides here run between 8 feet in Southern Maine and 20 ish feet up where I am, so all the ramps are pretty steep. Do you think this fix will help, or will extending the pipe just leave more water in the bilge when Im sitting on a steep ramp with the plug out? Thoughts?
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I wish I had thought of the pipe before I did my rebuild. Now I always have water a foot in front of the garboard plug and it takes either raising the bow way up or I need to use a sponge to dry it out. We have a member that drilled a drain in the bottom because he couldn't get the water out of his either.
The purpose of the pipe is to compensate for the low point being moved forward as you add all the fiberglass and core to the transom. You'll be grinding the pipe down after you finish getting the transom in. After you glass the pipe in and finish the laminations of the transom you can pour some water in the bilge and see where the new low is and grind the pipe to that point.
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I gotcha now... 3 times looking at your pic, and this final description i see where youre going.
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So.... it was definitely in need of a transom.... Pretty wet. I'm glad i decided to keep digging.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20191019_150257.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19402&title=20191019-150257&cat=864)
Another question, I can tell that there is a hollow spot behind the liner down by the deck, but up under the cap, it appears as though the liner is attached to the hull..... I'm very hesitant to cut this with the angle grinder... Whats the best way to separate the two?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20191019_150235.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19401&title=20191019-150235&cat=864)
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Here is a pic from the rebuild I linked above.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/825/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_9eb.jpg)
He decided to cut out the transom but you can see the liner along the sides. He cut it and the stringers back about 18" from the transom. The cap will be in the way of you getting the core in the boat. You don't have to cut it but you will need to release it from the hull it so you can prop it up, which allows you to slide the core in from the rear.
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:wink2: One step ahead of you Rick! (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20191019_150229.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19403&title=20191019-150229&cat=864)
I was just explaining to my buddy at lunch who was asking how I knew what to do next. I told him I'd have an answer to my question by the time we got back from lunch. Thank you all for the help! I'm learning a ton.
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:thumleft:
If you want to save the liner on the face of the transom, its possible if you're gentle while prying on it and make sure you release it all around. Take your time.
Having it intact will allow you, after the new core is in, to glue it with thickened resin troweled on the core. It won't be structural but it'll save you from finishing the inside of the transom. If you look in my rebuild of the 170 you'll see the liner I made with side cabinets and glued it all in. I built it from scratch but it might give you some ideas. Everything you see in my rebuild was my first time trying it. Everything you see was made from scratch, stringers, floor, console most of it) virtually everything. You can do it too.
Here is a glimpse so you don't have to spend a couple days looking through the thread. Like your boat, I had a trough and that was the only way to get cables, wires, etc. to the rear, or anywhere. I ran pvc pipe to the corners of the boat and I needed to hide and protect the openness of the pipe - cabinets were the idea
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG0953.JPG)
Liner/cabinets
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG1325.JPG)
Installed and running the cables/wires from them
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG1728.JPG)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG1729.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14077&title=cimg1729&cat=646)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG1727.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14075&title=cimg1727&cat=646)
The thing you need to understand is if you can build a box in wood, you can do the same in fiberglass. Fiberglass work is easy - try something and if you don't like it, grind it back down and try something else. And don't be afraid to spend a day or two staring at the hull, thinking things through.
And remember, we're here to help.
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Free for the taking... slightly used marine plywood.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20191103_081753.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19443&title=20191103-081753&cat=864)
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So... My buddy made me feel guilty for lack of progress, so I spent a few hours in the garage during the ice storm. Cut everything within 18 inches of the transom as prescribed. I've been putting it off, out of fear of damaging the hull with the grinder. Used the Dremel and a Rotozip bit, came out way easier than expected and much less dust to clean up.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200112_143712.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19616&title=20200112-143712&cat=864)
I was about ready to walk away, when I decided to spend a few minutes digging at the wood in the transom. Not really much integrity left to any of it other than the outer foot on both sides. Definitely needed, and I would have regret not doing it as soon as I tried to hang the outboard. All of this has convinced me to break down and buy a below deck fuel tank. I had myself convinced I'd live with an above deck, but, I might as well do it while I'm in here.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200112_151006.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19617&title=20200112-151006&cat=864)
While screwing around, I thought up this little flowchart for decision making in the future.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/Aquasport18.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19618&title=aquasport18&cat=864)
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Love the flowchart LOL
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Nice to see you back at it
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18 degrees out, so why not start pulling the old plywood out of the transom.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200119_150715.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19640&title=20200119-150715&cat=864)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200119_150720.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19641&title=20200119-150720&cat=864)
Thinking about doing bench seats instead of a casting deck up front. Anybody else done this? Thinking some hinged tops on the benches with storage underneath. I can't see a whole lot of benefit to having a fishbox, but see plenty for having extra deckroom to walk around. I have lots of coolers, not sure I need one built in.
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Eighteen degrees? That’s crazy. Split bench would be very doable. Keep going, soon you’ll be moving in a + direction.
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Super progress :thumleft: - looks like a new hammer too, nice!! I have so many new tools from my rebuild I really don't have room for them - maybe a yard sale is in the future.
As for the bench seats - you can easily mod the casting deck to meet your needs. Fiberglass work is really very easy if you have imagination and some basic woodworking skills. The lamination process we can teach you.
If you lay a straight 2x4 across the aft side of the transom is the transom skin flat or bowed? Mine was bowed toward the inside of the boat 3/8" in the center. IIRC the bottom of the transom skin was flat. I needed to pull the skin aft while I layed up the first 3 lams of 1708.
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West system advice... buy the 4.35 gallon jug or use the 1 gallon cans? I have a couple sets of pumps for the cans, but do I need to be that accurate in measuring where i cant just do it in small paint buckets?
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I assume you've made your decision to go the epoxy route. I started with the pumps but tossed them and went back to mixing cups You do want to be accurate with the mix but it is too slow with the pumps when you're mixing good size batches.
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My thought is to use West System on any place Im trying to bond to the original glass. I will probably use polyester on the deck to save a little $. Unless there is an overwhelming response on here that i shouldnt do that...
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My thought is to use West System on any place Im trying to bond to the original glass. I will probably use polyester on the deck to save a little $. Unless there is an overwhelming response on here that i shouldnt do that...
Yes, this works really well. You can use poly for anywhere that you’re making a part, and then use epoxy to tab the part in. For example use poly to laminate your deck, and then tab it in with epoxy. That way you’re using each resin to it’s best advantage, plus saving a bit of money.
I used both mixing cups and pumps for measuring. I actually came to like the pumps. The key for me was forget the small pumps. Just use two full size pumps. With my 2-1 resin it was2 pumps resin and 1 pump harder. You may want to look into Raka epoxy. It’s cheaper than West, a bit thinner and 0 blush.
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What I decided on in my rebuild was everything below the sole was epoxy, everything above to include the sole itself was done in poly, that way I could gelcoat it. All the structural stuff was done in epoxy and like what Michael mentioned, I tabbed in the sole to the hull sides with epoxy (and then hid it behind liners).
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Hmm... I hadn't thought about tabbing the deck to the hull yet... am i going to have to cut the rest of liner out? Whats the best way to do that and salvage it so I can reinstall? Cut behind the gunwale support so its easier to hide if i F*$ck it up? :)
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You're going to be a good chess player by the time you're done with this ;-)
We need a pic of the inside of the boat from the aft now so we can see how to attach the sole to the hulsides. I'm guessing that the easiest way is to pop the cap and liner loose, prop it up like you did at the aft and set/glue the sole in and then tab it in. You'll end up cutting about 3" from the bottom of the side liners since you're raising the floor 3". That's when you'll be happy that you took the time to draw the boat out and get a bunch of measurements. You'll be scribing the bottom to the sole, not an easy thing but having all those measurements will get you close for the rough-in.
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I'm assuming you're fairly confident that the right thing I need to do is raise the deck 3" based on your response. I've read on here that boats can be wet. . What will need to be done to the stringers for that? I'll have to measure to see if this will allow me to put a larger fuel tank in. My original thought was a below deck 28 gallon to replace the 28 gallon under the console with a small reserve tank under the console. If i can put a larger tank below that might leave the under console area open. Any benefit in building a small splash well around the OB. I have a 20" shaft Evinrude I plan on installing. No plan to raise the transom at this point.
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I may be confusing your rebuild with another going on at the same time and that member was going to raise his deck 3" with sealed plywood. That being said, usually everyone raises the deck a little - an inch or 2 anyway to keep the scuppers above the waterline due to heavier motors (and humans).
What was your plan?
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At this point I'm open to suggestions. Haven't had the boat off the trailer so far and everyone has told me to expect wet feet. I have a 91 Evinrude 120 looper off a lake boat in great shape that I'm planning on installing. Weight on that is 365. I'm ballparking that being 100lbs heavier than the 115's were back in 1971. In my head i was contemplating raising the deck, but leaving a 1"deep channel around the outside, so I could Bond the new deck to the 3" lip of original deck without having to cut the liner, but still raise up the majority of the deck about an inch, maybe put a little crown in the deck so that water would channel to the outside and back, then out the scuppers.... but theres no need to be a trailbreaker if there is an easier route.
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What have you decided on the transom? I think you are leaning toward leaving it notched. That's fine.
Raising the sole...can you do it and maintain the strength originally designed into the boat?
Think about how your boat was built at the factory... after the hull was created and before it was pulled from the mold the transom core was set into the hull and bonded in place, this helps the hull maintain it's shape. Next, the pre-made stringers were set, laminated in place and also laminated onto the transom core. Now the shape of the hull is set and can be removed from the mold. Sometimes the hulls were popped out of the mold prior to the stringers being set in place but the hull was set into cradles that held the shape.
Next the pre-made liner (sides, casting deck, floor to include the liner on the inside of the transom) was set in and bonded in place. Finally the pre-made cap was set and screwed in place. The strength originally came from the liner being one piece and bonded in many places (like that stuff you chipped and ground off the top of the stringers) in place. If you think about it, the way everything was bonded the parts became one - stringers bonded to the hull, the liner bonded to the stringers and hull sides/transom.
Now look at your hull as it is now - what do you have? How can you re-create the strength originally designed into the boat?
Since the liner is not all one piece anymore would it ever be as strong as it once was? Could you make it as strong again by glassing onto the sides or remaining 3" of the original floor? These are things that need to part of the big picture as you move through this rebuild. Strength comes from all the parts becoming one, even though you might have changed the height of the sole or have modified the casting deck.
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Another thing to think about is the roller trailer you have. These type of trailers are great for the purpose designed but they are not great for the boats that sit on top of them. Boats were not designed to sit on that type of trailer. The pressure points created by the rollers have been known to delaminate hulls. If you are going to keep the trailer I would beef up the contact places with more glass on the inside of the hull. You may not be able to get to every spot because the stringers are in the way.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20190518_141934.jpg)
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The rollers are pretty much shot... was thinking bunks...
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One thing you can do is build a cradle a little off the ground, offload the boat into it and complete the inside rebuild. The cradle being low to the ground saves a ton of climbing in/out of the boat. You can also decide what to do with the trailer or if it's cheaper to find a better one. Where are you located? 18degrees tell me up north somewhere. If you're way up there maybe you do need a roller trailer to get the boat in/out of the water. A bunk trailer is great for gentle ramps that you can back the boat in and float the boat off.
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Remember, take it one day at a time, think through and look ahead as best you can, and pick the brains of the members here. You're doing good :thumleft:
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Downeast Maine.... 22 Foot average tides... :shock: Lets hope it floats before the outboard is underwater...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/Low_Tide.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19644&title=low-tide&cat=500)
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Wont even get the truck tires wet....
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Haha, and they all say 20’ tides! You could Almost walk across Tampa Bay
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I've been through there - Calais, Eastport, Lubeck, Machias - Bay of Fundy tides are extreme. Down here in FL we have 2' tides.
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95% of the wood is out of the transom....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200126_154836.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19655&title=20200126-154836&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200126_154845.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19656&title=20200126-154845&cat=500)
A few posts ago I said the outter foot was not rotten. Scratch that. Very rotten.
Also Rick, looks like the transom bows out about 3/8 of an inch slowly towards the middle.
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I think that the skin can be pushed back in, maybe with a few 2x4 or x6 screwed to the floor of the garage and pressing in on the transom skin. Build something that is stable and stout so that you can maybe change pressure by backing the trailer against the 2x4 frame until the skin is flat?
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If I cut the liner out.... What would be the best method of regaining stiffness in the hull? What have other people done? Trying to think this through. Tabbing to the hull sides would be a whole lot easier without it there, but i'm hesitant to take the whole cap off and risk losing the shape while trying to save the liner. I'm assuming tabbing right to the hull would give some stiffness... and maybe glass in some gunnel supports rather than putting the teak ones back in? How much stiffness would i gain with a layer of biaxial over the hull sides? Sorry for the rambling... I'm sure someone elses trial and error could save me some pain.
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If I cut the liner out.... What would be the best method of regaining stiffness in the hull? What have other people done? Trying to think this through. Tabbing to the hull sides would be a whole lot easier without it there, but i'm hesitant to take the whole cap off and risk losing the shape while trying to save the liner. I'm assuming tabbing right to the hull would give some stiffness... and maybe glass in some gunnel supports rather than putting the teak ones back in? How much stiffness would i gain with a layer of biaxial over the hull sides? Sorry for the rambling... I'm sure someone elses trial and error could save me some pain.
I cut out the liner on my 200 CCP rebuild to make it three piece. I added stiffeners to regain stiffness. My hull is rock solid now. If I were doing it now, I would add double cut foam core ing to the hull sides instead of the stiffness. I would have saved a ton of fairing.
Simply adding a layer of glass does little to add stiffness, not that they’re aren’t other reasons to add glass to an old hull.
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Mike, have you nailed down the finish on the inside? You mentioned using poly (gelcoat?) up top - the liners are poly. If you look at the liners they are actually just covers for unfinished raw glass. They drop the liner in, stick it to the stringers, transom and hullsides and wham - the ugly glass is hidden. If you pop the liners off and think through either cutting off the top or the bottom to fit after you have decided on the new deck height, you can tab the deck into the hullsides and then glue the liners back on to hide the raw glass. Now you have less to fair.
You can reattach the liner sections that you cut so far, back onto the liner.
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Alllmost got all the wood out.... Whats left at the bottom is a bear. I think just because its frozen. Working in 10 degree weather in the garage. I decided not to waste valuable rebuild time installing the woodstove. I have a 2 year old, my working time is whatever time she's napping on the weekends.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200209_154932.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19833&title=20200209-154932&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200209_154916.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19832&title=20200209-154916&cat=500)
What grit on the flap wheel discs are people using. Also, what would be the prescribed thickness of plywood for the transom. Without looking at it now, i want to say it was 3, 1/2" layers. I've seen some rebuilds on here with 2, 3/4" layers. What are everyone's thoughts?
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Great progress on the demo. You’re getting close to moving in the + direction. An inch and a half is good transom core thickness for your 191. It doesn’t really matter how you get there. A single layer of 1 1/2” , two x 3/4” or three x 1/2” are equivalent in all but work and cost. There’s probably a bit more work with more layers. As for cost, If you can get a bargain on a particular thickness, go with that.
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I have a 2 year old, my working time is whatever time she's napping on the weekends.
I know how that goes... mine are slightly older but the vast majority of my rebuild has been after 8:00pm once they are FINALLY asleep! Makes for a long rebuild but you (and the kids) will appreciate it that much more once you get it out on the water.
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10 degrees and 22' tides! Wow, Florida has me spoiled. I'm planning to go for a boat ride this weekend.
Progress looks great. Keep it up
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You’re making me anxious, just waiting for some shop space to open up and I’m tearing into the 196
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All.... the wood... in the transom... is gone!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200216_143339.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19847&title=20200216-143339&cat=500)
Also, started tearing apart the mess that I refer to as the console. You can definitely tell that this boat has not been owned by boat people, just people who owned a boat. I'm sure that its the same with every 50 year old boat, but WTF. EVERYTHING is jerry rigged. Then again, maybe in 50 years from now, someone will tear this thing apart again and wonder what the hell I was thinking. Its about time this old girl got the love she deserves.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200216_151232.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19848&title=20200216-151232&cat=500)
I'll get the inside skin of the transom sanded down. Does anyone have a good thread of photos of how they glassed the new transom in? I know 3 layers, but are the tops of those layers between the skin and first piece of marine ply (seems like this would leave a gap), or does it all overlap onto the back of the skin? I'd have to grind down a bunch of the outter skin to do it this way, and it would probably be a bear to sand down and fair. Just looking for some input on how I prep for the next step, I'm struggling to picture how people are doing this. I'm certain someone on here has a much better method than I would think up.
Thanks in advance!
-Mike
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Grind all the wood off the transom inside skin. You want to reinforce the skin with 3 layers of 1708 on 3 or 4" overlay - if the transom is not flat across the aft you may need to lay the glass and then clamp it with a plywood (with cheap painters plastic drop cloth in between) or a waxed melamine piece on the outside and inside. The following gives you an idea of how to clamp the wood to straighten transom skin. You will use some form of this to clamp the core in also. Some drill holes and pull it in with all thread, some use, including me, use the above clamps.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG1385.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11459&title=cimg1385&cat=646)
As you lay 3 layers of glass plus 1.5" core plus 3 more layers of glass to tie everything together, you've moved the low point of the hull, which used to be close to the drain plug, to about a 9" to a foot in front of the transom.
Here is a link to where I explain the thought of the PVC pipe
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133124#msg133124
Here is a link to where I show what is actual problem
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg133556#msg133556
Here is a link to Hawgleg's rebuild that shows the PVC pipe installation to keep a drain at the new low point of the boat
http://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=13148.msg134262#msg134262
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Finally got some nice enough weather to drag the old girl outside, which is where it really needed to be to do all the sanding.... I'll have fiberglass dust in all my belongings from now to the end of time. At least on anything that was in the detached garage. Anyway, it was good to get some work done. Finally said screw it and cut the liner out all the way up to the casting deck. I only really have so much time to get stuff done outside until the mosquitos and black flies arrive. Most of the transom is ready to go, need to do some more sanding where I'll be tabbing the new deck to the hull, but I wasn't getting a whole lot out of the flap disc, so i'll pick up another one.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200412_153403.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20033&title=20200412-153403&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200412_153347.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20032&title=20200412-153347&cat=500)
Still need to order a bunch of stuff to move on, but I've been dreading this sanding. Good thing I had a supply of Tyvek suits before Tyra Banks bought em all. Refinancing the house stole all my cash, but should free up $350 a month which I'm putting straight into the rebuild fund. My wife said start making a list of things I need. I'll keep a mental list, I'm not sure she wants to see how much stuff I really need to get this thing wet. I'd rather not have the "why didn't we buy a finished boat" conversation when I can't leave the house. She'll never understand... :-)
Oh, and I know I still have a lot of cleanup to do (a little foam left, plywood chunks), but I figure no sense to clean again until I slow down on the sanding. Bonding putty is my next battle...
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Looks like you've done a good job cleaning up the inside. :thumleft:
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Looking good Mike. I used a hammer and chisel to chip off the bonding putty, grinding it off would've made a ton of dust.
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Getting a quote on a custom aluminum tank.... Without cutting anything, I should be able to get 30 gals down there.... A poly tank is gonna cost me $250+ and shipping... or I get what I want for.....?????
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If you can find a local shop to make your tank, you can save big. A 30 gal tank will most likely be $300 -$400, but freight can add $100-$200.
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If you can find a local shop to make your tank, you can save big. A 30 gal tank will most likely be $300 -$400, but freight can add $100-$200.
....so true.....freight is a killer for these things. I would've been happy with $200 when I got mine.
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Well... the free shipping made the decision for me... Totalboat epoxy it is... Did a bunch more sanding with the flap disc. Need to buy another to finish up. Wife is leaving town for 5 days in a about a week. Let's see how much I can get done. At least for 5 days I won't have to hear the battle of "why are you working on that boat so much" and "I wish the boat was finished so we could use it." Two hours a week just doesn't get you very far. So I've decided I'm going to shrink the size of the notch in the transom to minimize water coming over the back. I want to make sure its wide enough if I ever decide to repower, But i'm assuming the 90 degree Evinrude looper I'm putting on is as wide as I'm going to find? Any suggestions on a universal notch width?
Also... Any thoughts on making sure the deck pitches slightly to the stern? My thought is drop the trailer jack so that the water line drops a few degrees to the bow, then install the deck using a level... seems easy enough?
Oh,and I'm really MF-ing the bonding putty... Lots of chiseling. My cheapest chisel is going to look like Andy Dufresne's rock hammer in The Shawshank Redemption.
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On chisels - you can get a piece of steel bar stock (24" x 2" x 1/4" stock is maybe $8 at Tractor Supply) and put the end to a grinder... then beat the heck out of it without feeling bad!
A cautionary tale on the TotalBoat epoxy in Maine... I found it to be significantly more temperature sensitive than West. If you got the fast hardener, probably no issue, but if it's slow hardener, I'd make sure you're temp is at least 70 degrees and not damp. I had a lot of gooey scraping on my hard top because a batch never fully cured, and that was in my basement at 62 degrees. Heat gun and cooking it wouldn't even touch it. I imagine your spring has been as cold, wet and stupid as ours has been down here.
However - West System hardener works great on any resin as long as the ratio is the same (i.e. designed for 5:1 etc). Resins are basically the same from brand to brand, but the hardener makes a difference in my opinion. In the right conditions though, TotalBoat worked just fine and the price is right.
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Thanks Wingnut... I'll keep an eye on the temperatures, or pick up a quart of the West System slow hardener for days where the temperature is questionable. I'm excited to put something new back ONTO the boat. Will be a bummer if I have to cut it back out due to a bad cure.
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Absolutely, glad to hear you're going to be making some forward progress!
I like to use slow hardener over 70 degrees (especially if on a big job, like a deck), and fast below that, since it cures down to 45 degrees or so. All personal preference though. You can make anything work.
Can't wait to see it start to come together. I'm about 2 weeks out from first splash (hopefully) assuming we can get some decent weather.
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Making Progress.. Wife is out of town, so I moved the mistress back into the 2nd garage now that I'm done sanding the transom. Jamestown came through, so I now believe I have all the glass materials I need for at least the transom. I've got the form for the transom core sketched, and hopefully tomorrow I'll cut those out. Still 58 degrees, and my buddy is giving me a salamander heater, which won't be here til Sunday...
She Just BARELY fits in the door cockeyed enough so I don't have to move my workbench
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200515_124645.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20156&title=20200515-124645&cat=500)
Since I'm at a standstill on the transom, I figured I'd dismantle the console. With as many holes as there are in it, i'm surprised it didn't dismantle itself. I'm assuming I'm not the only one who's curious. So I guess I'll ask. What's the record number of holes (screw holes, wire runs, etc. that someone on this site has had to fill in a console... I have to assume I'm up there...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200515_182555.jpg)[/
My hopes of seeing the water this year are all but gone. Boothbay Harbor has an antique boat parade every year. My goal is to be in that parade next year, for the 50th birthday. Lets just hope she doesn't look 50 years old as it goes by....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20154&title=20200515-182555&cat=500)
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Hang in there man... you will get there and it will all be worth it!
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What is your plan with the center console?
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Not sure how I'm going to tackle the center console. I think i'm going to cut the instrument section out from the top, then re-core it and glass over it...? not sure there is a good way to repair the swiss cheese without putting new plywood in it and glassing over. Probably just as easy to do one big repair instead of 30 small ones.
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You can also cut some of the width out of it so you can get by it on the sides easier.
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^^^ x2 on what he said! I had mine all marked and ready to take 6” out of the middle of my 170, but stripers were closing in on us and I figured it would be fine. It’s not, in fact I’m still seriously thinking about tearing it out and cutting it, wasting the brand new cushions and all.
I won’t be making that mistake on the 196
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Well.... I have finally added something back into the boat. Heated up the garage yesterday, and epoxied the two 3/4 in sheets of marine ply together, and got my first layers of glass over the old glass in the transom. I was a little concerned at 8 pm when I ran out of propane for the heater (38 degrees outside), and there was still a slight tack to the epoxy, but this morning thats all gone. Fortunately the detached garage is insulated, so it holds heat well. Rick, you'll be glad to know I got my pipe in. After kicking it about 100 times away from where I wanted it to sit while wetting out the glass, its in place, and will probably never move again without a grinder. Wow, does that 1708 take some epoxy to wet out. When I was reading and I saw 1 gallon for every 27 sq feet, I thought to myself no way. Yup, I'm about there, but it feels strong as hell. I was surprised how much the original glass flexed on the transom, but just with the glass and no core, I can barely budge it. Now I have to dry fit my marine ply again and shape it to fit snug. I went exxxtra wide on the notch for the motor after wingnuts adventure. Still I've cut 20" out of the back that will want to splash over. Still not sure on raising the deck... I mean I'm in here... I have to level the two outter stringers anyway.... I really don't want to cut the tops off the stringers....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200523_162027.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20208&title=20200523-162027&cat=864)
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Looking great! Glad my misadventure could be a cautionary tale. If the thickness stays the same, I THINK it should be ok, but why risk it?
Caught our first striper of the season this evening, they are heading your way!
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Looking good man!
Stripers are here in earnest on the north shore of MA! I lasted about a week after they arrived and caved and bought a boat
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No way, what did you end up getting Enginerd? That didn’t last long! Hope the rebuild is going well. It’s good to see all of these boats coming together in the northeast.
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Progress.....
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200607_100839.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20296&title=20200607-100839&cat=500)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200607_1014231.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20297&title=20200607-1014231&cat=500)
Had to make a couple batches of epoxy, and had some that didn't seem to want to kick. Cranked the heater up and got the place about 85 degrees... hardened right up. Feels solid as a rock. Fillets and glassing now... Maybe its time to order some half inch marine ply for the deck..... Maybe she will see the water this summer with no make-up on.
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Looking great! You can totally make it for a late summer splash. Just gently encourage your wife to go on trips!
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She left town for the week.... good call!
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Alright... I get it now about the fillets, and 1708 not liking corners.... and that has brought me to a halt in progress. My initial thought was to overlap the 1708 from the inside of the transom, over the cap, and down the stern. There's no way that's going to happen. Fortunately I saw what would soon be my difficulty on a smaller section before I got there. The two 90's I'll have to come over 2" apart from each other to form the cap on the transom isn't going to happen with 1708, at least not as I planned. After what I believe to be the demise of the previous transom (a crack along the cap at the top...I'm inclined to have pieces of mat completely overlapping from the inside to the outside of the transom.. am I wrong in this? Can I cover the transom cap with chopped strand mat instead and will that be forgiving enough around the 2 90's? How do I tackle the cap on the transom?
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/19F152EF-EE80-4A6D-9695-2772CD413512.jpeg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20285&title=19f152ef-ee80-4a6d-9695-2772cd413512&cat=500)
I was able to get 2 layers of 1708 to wrap around the transom cap.I went about a foot down on either side with 1708. I did sand before hand a radius about 3/8 on the 90’s to help the 1708 wrap around. Also kept at it with the roller for a long awhile until the epoxy started to setup to achieve no air pockets. I also want to try to avoid the cap cracking again in the future. The desperation/crack went the whole span of the transom and was hidden by an aluminum plate the previous owner installed for strength. Maybe you can zoom in on my pic. Finished out pretty nice.
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Nice job :great02:
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Agree with Fish Head, you'd be surprised how tight 1708 will turn if it's pulled right. If you have your layers extending down far enough that they adhere, you can put a little tension in it and wrap it over your edges. It won't turn a sharp corner, but it will lay down over a 1/4" to 3/8" rounded radius in my experience.
I didn't have a plywood core but I still put 1708 over the top edges to wrap over my poured core and tie it into the fiberglass. I rounded the top transom edges (I'd guess 1/4" radius) and it laid down flat. Just make sure you monitor it for the first hour or so, and roll out any bubbles that start to appear! You're going to have to sand and fare either way, but you'll be able to put glass where it counts. Here's mine:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/894/fared_transom.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19665&title=fared-transom&cat=894)
Another option is to use 17oz biaxial (45 degree, but no mat attached). Much more flexible and basically same strength. I have a big roll and can carve off a few yards if you ever make it down this way!
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Ok. That makes me feel better. I'll give it a whirl. The piece I was working on I had cut a little too big and it was trying to turn a 90. My plan was to grind the extra off later, but the air pocket would have had to have been ground out after it hardened. We will hopefully find out tonight!
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So... The transom is basically in. Glassed in from the inside, and I need to put another layer of glass over the cap. So I think I should be all set after some sanding/fairing etc. Now on to the next issue. I'm assuming that I'm best off by cutting the tops off the outter stringers and building a ledge for the stringer to sit on along the side of the hull then re-glassing? I thought about just glassing the top and tabbing to the sides, but I'm afraid that will offer little to no support. Am I heading in the right direction in my thinking? I ground off most of the bonding putty, and the stringer essentially falls a half inch short of the side of the hull.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200615_060039.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20323&title=20200615-060039&cat=500)
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If it was me, I would clean and sand the tops of the stringers really well, and use the top of stringer as a form to make a new stringer top. You could even extend the glass down the inner face of stringer (new glass will go down the hull, across the stringer top, and down the inner face of stringer again). This will basically make you a new stringer top, integral with hull and stringer face, without removing the old one first. Which will save you a couple weeks of forming up structural stuff unnecessarily, and get you on the water this fall!
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I'm not following. How would I wet out glass to the hull below the stringer, without cutting the top of the stringer off?
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You can't. Usually you cut the top off the stringers (I recommend 2 ft then leave a 3" strap across, then 2 ft,,,etc - the strap keeps the stringer integrity/shape) to get at the wet foam to remove it.
Your 191 had a liner on the inner hullsides that you removed and hopefully saved - this liner can hide how you re-attach the stringer to the side of the hull when you re-attach the liner.
Maybe you have other ideas - let me know so we can discuss.
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Possibly I don’t understand what’s going on - is there any reason the vertical glass along the hull has to go below the stringer? Can it not go up from where the top of the stringer hits the hull? From a structural standpoint this has some benefits but I may not be realizing all the issues!
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My plan is to ultimately go up with the glass, but figured I'd support it from the bottom as well as the top. I guess to your point, the original had no support from the bottom obviously. Ill just have to sand the top real well to make sure I get a good bond. I'll cut the low spots where they connect with the hull and support them to the proper height so I don't 100 lbs of bonding putty like the original install. Rick, I do still have the liner, but not sure I'm going to reinstall. I think I'll just reinforce the hull from the inside with 1708. I'm not looking to make it look perfect from the inside. It's not all in one piece, and I'm not sure I can put it back together to make it look like it's one piece again. I'll also glass in the gunwhale supports to help with the structural support I'm losing from not having the liner. I'm going to make one on either side rugged enough to help support a swivel rodholder... the last couple years the bluefin have been in super close. Last year we were fishing an 1/8 mile offshore. Not gonna be a tuna boat, but if the footballs are in close, its nice to have an option with a recreational permit.
Oh, and all these plans are dependent on whether or not you all give me better options :-)
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I like that you want to re-enforce the hull sides with 1708. The hull sides are rough from the cloth used at the factory that they hid with the liner. So you have a lot of grinding ahead of you to prep for the 1708. Reason I mentioned using the liners is that even with the 1708 you'll have a lot of fairing depending on how you're going to finish the inside, so re-using the liners can save you a ton of work.
Are you thinking of re-enforcing all the stringers from the inside?
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So.... I'm planning out my deck. I'm going to set up so that all of my plywood seams line up with the centers of the stringer tops, because they'll be the weakest. Whats the best option for joining two pieces of marine ply together. Should I glass them completely and then put them in and tab them together installed? Should I try to make it as much one piece as possible and then try to get it in the boat? What's most successful at the joints?
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You can glass over your whole deck top and bottom and it will be more than strong enough. That’s what I did with my Airex foam deck. It turned out stiff and strong, and that was with the seams going across the beam.
Another option, if you don’t want to glue your deck into the boat in 1 piece, is to glass the bottom of your panels, and use a glassed plywood cleat under any unsupported seam. Glue down the individual panels then glass over the whole deck top. Where you’re seams lap on a stringer, you won’t need a cleat.
I like the simplicity of a one piece deck, but either method works. Your plan to have
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Ok, So the wife is out of town again, so its been a mad scramble to get work done on the boat (and all the other stuff around here that needs to get done). Stringers are all back in and complete. I've got them about 2/3 of the way filled with 2 part foam. Just need to build one bulkhead. That is some neat stuff by the way. Why didn't Santa ever put any of that in my stocking? Today is Deck Day. I may not get there today, but what should I do for glass on the deck? 1 layer on the underside 2 on the topside?
Also, I'm starting to understand why the pics and posts disappear on here. As I look at the other builds and I see the professional quality results... I'm probably not gonna get there. However, first time working with glass, so I'm laying it out there, and owning it! My grandfather was a jointer/boatbuilder and passed on before he was able to instill any of his knowledge in me. My father was a fisherman and his motto was "Its not how bad you F*$& it up, its how good you cover it up." I'm definitely in the latter portion of that. Oh, my apologies on the condition of the garage... I'm still not taking a whole lot of time to stop and pick up.
Its cooler today. Maybe I'll sand. Not sure how you guys in the south are able to get any work done in a Tyvek suit. 20 mins and I'm soaked.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200627_155040.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20373&title=20200627-155040&cat=500)
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Ok, So the wife is out of town again, so its been a mad scramble to get work done on the boat (and all the other stuff around here that needs to get done). Stringers are all back in and complete. I've got them about 2/3 of the way filled with 2 part foam. Just need to build one bulkhead. That is some neat stuff by the way. Why didn't Santa ever put any of that in my stocking? Today is Deck Day. I may not get there today, but what should I do for glass on the deck? 1 layer on the underside 2 on the topside?
Also, I'm starting to understand why the pics and posts disappear on here. As I look at the other builds and I see the professional quality results... I'm probably not gonna get there. However, first time working with glass, so I'm laying it out there, and owning it! My grandfather was a jointer/boatbuilder and passed on before he was able to instill any of his knowledge in me. My father was a fisherman and his motto was "Its not how bad you F*$& it up, its how good you cover it up." I'm definitely in the latter portion of that. Oh, my apologies on the condition of the garage... I'm still not taking a whole lot of time to stop and pick up.
Its cooler today. Maybe I'll sand. Not sure how you guys in the south are able to get any work done in a Tyvek suit. 20 mins and I'm soaked.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200627_155040.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20373&title=20200627-155040&cat=500)
I am thinking you mean people don't finish their builds and stop posting? Not that their posts were removed?
You work looks fine - usually people are their own worst critics. Rarely do we get a person posting that is a pro working with fiberglass. We do have some guys that are pros but the rebuilding of 99% of the boats here are by people that have basic carpentry skills and have not worked with glass. Me included.
So don't be too hard on yourself, your work looks great. And we're here to help you out, keep on trucking on this.
So you've decided on using wood for the decking. Running the wood from front to aft and laying the joints so they land on the stringers is fine. You will end up with some seams going across the boat because the wood is not long enough. Make sure you add a bulkhead to support those seams. We have seen all kinds of rebuilds using all kinds of materials, and all have come out to the expectation of the person rebuilding.
I see a piece of PVC going from the transom up into the fuel tank area - what are you thinking there?
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Thanks Rick, hopefully this boat is good practice, and someday I'll build something a little bigger. It's always easier the 2nd time. That pipe was originally there, spanning the rear section that originally had foam. I'll join the two pieces with a coupling before replacing the foam.
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Oh, and I mean that for some reason a lot of rebuilds tail off, just by looking, I'd say 1 in 10 shows start to finish... I'd love to see all the ones finished that I've read through and the posting stops 1/4 of the way through. It's like leaving a movie early.
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And how many layers of glass on the deck
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Rear 2/3 of the deck, cut and ready for glass. All the seams sit dead center on a stringer or bulkhead... Now to build a trough...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200628_171051.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20374&title=20200628-171051&cat=500)
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Exciting to see the build start taking shape. I know what you mean about the builds that leave one wondering. I typically start at the end to see how far along they are or got. However, there is a lot of great info even in the ones that don’t hard a start to finish. At least regarding glass. I’m curious how one is suppose to keep the deck flat.. :shrug:
Keep up the great work
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In terms of flat, I'm gonna pull it out, lay it on the garage floor on plastic dropcloth, then put 6"×8' deck boards wrapped in wax paper on the seams, weighted with concrete blocks... ;-)
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And how many layers of glass on the deck
As stated earlier one layer on the bottom, two on top should be fine. What thickness of plywood are you using? When you say trough, are you talking about at the back of the boat for the scupper drains or the one that runs from the console, down the starboard side to the aft for cables, or both?
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1/2" Marine Ply... and both. I suppose there's still time to change my mind. But I decided to keep the under console fuel tank, after a string of astronomical quotes for custom tanks. I didn't want to tear into the stringers to make them wide enough for the Moeller tank Enginerd installed. So I haven't taken a measuring tape out, but that will seriously limit my ability to get a pipe up through into the console from underneath. I wanna say I only have an inch or two on all sides. Let me look again. It would look a lot cleaner without the trough, and a lot less work.
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as mentioned above, 2 on the top and 1 layer on the bottom is fine - unless you've got a really long unsupported span but in these little boats I don't think you'll run into that.
In addition to the glass, I've had really good luck with getting wood to last by coating the wood with thinned resin, then regular resin before you glass, really helps seal up the wood. If you can schedule it so that you can apply all the coats & glass 'wet on wet' you'll be in good shape.
And of course any holes you drill make sure you seal the wood the same way.
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Hmm... a 75 foot roll of 1708 just doesn't last as long as you'd expect....
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Alright... So I've got 7 inches to play with under the console where I can bring a pipe up through for controls/wires. Looking at what I've got to run through there, I'm assuming 3" pipe minimum. What have other people been using?
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I think I used 3" but I also ran a second 2.5" pipe for the fuel and hydraulic steering lines. The elbow at the end is more important. Use a bigger sweep instead of a 90, and make sure you can bend a shift and throttle cable through it.
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I ran 2 2" pipes out the back and a 1 1/2 out toward the bow (for trolling motor cables and nav lights). As Mike said, make sure you can get the controls through the bend.
I had to step up to 3" and use a 45 degree elbow to get the controls through.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/646/CIMG0747.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7495&title=cimg0747&cat=646)
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So.... with a little bit of work, I was able to get my control cables through a 2" piece of PVC with 2-90 degree turns (2-45s to make a 90). As you all mentioned, the fittings were the difficulty. The adjustment knobs on the controls were hanging up on the fittings, so I ground down the edges of the 45s with a dremel. Then they were still getting fetched up, so i looked closer, and they were getting hung up on the edge of the pipe now that I had ground down the fittings, so I ground down the edge of the pipe and voila, control cables slide through no problem. I"ll have to run 2 in parallel, but by keeping it 2" I won't have to cut my bulkheads, and they'll fit nicely under the deck. I think I can do control cables and wiring harness through one, and the steering and fuel through the other. I got one layer of glass on the deck this morning. Don't mind the mess... I was foaming and still not taking time to clean up before starting the next job. Bye Bye Trough.... lets hope...
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200704_121846.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20415&title=20200704-121846&cat=500)
You can see all the extra room I got out of a 45 when I did some work with the dremel. Won't have to hold pressure, so I'm not too worried about the strength loss.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200704_115050.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20413&title=20200704-115050&cat=500)
Ending up taking it down all the way around the pipe, but you can see how much I took it down to make the transition through the fitting easier.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200704_115106.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20414&title=20200704-115106&cat=500)
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Make sure you drill a drain hole in the bottom of the pipe at the low point.
Edit: There was no way I could get the engine control cables for a Johnson through a 2" pipe 45, not sure how you accomplished this. I made one pull and made sure I started with the engine plug, then staggered the ends of the cables and then battery cables, power pole hoses and anything else for that side. It all came through barely.
The other side was fuel lines, hydraulic steering lines.
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Rick, it was definitely the butt ends of the pipe hanging you up. I forgot to grind one down and got hung up on my last dry run of the controls. I've run two sets of controls through, one from a 91 Evinrude 120, and one set from a late model 115 Etec. Slides through slick now, 2" pipe the whole way, and 4-45's.
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Cool - thanks for explaining your process for the other members that will need this.
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Here's the Deck, with 2 layers of 1708 and epoxy. Need to flip it and glass the other side, clean up the edges. Its still a little weak at the seams. I'm going to reinforce them with glass before the full layer of 1708. Then I need to figure out what I'm doing with the forward deck... and I need to order more epoxy... I should get an epoxy subscription for a gallon a week until further notice. It will be very nice when I'm not walking around the stringers. I think I recall a reinforced section around where the cooler seat was. Maybe i'll put another piece of 1/2" plywood there, in case I add a leaning post at some point. Is that what people typically do?
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/500/20200705_104453.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20422&title=20200705-104453&cat=500)
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I used polyester resin and 2 layers of chopped strand mat for the underside of the deck to save on epoxy and 1708 cost. I figured I was just concerned about water proofing the underside of the deck only. Almost certain I got that tip from somebody’s build on this site. :thumleft:
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Thanks FishHead, I think at one point I had considered doing the whole deck in polyester, but I've had blinders on cranking through building. I appreciate it, that will save me like $100, and keep me working until I get another shipment of epoxy.... Local store has it fairly cheap.
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Now working on the fore section of deck. Got it cut, need to shape it to the bow contour. Also reinforced the seams on the back of the rear deck. Much more rugged now. I'll finish it off with a full layer of 1708 and poly resin. Wife is out of town again... time to make hay.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200713_155523.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20445&title=20200713-155523&cat=864)
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Forward section of deck is cut to shape. Need to trim a little off to square it up. It will be awful nice to not be tripping over stringers.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200716_205705.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20447&title=20200716-205705&cat=864)
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No casting deck? That’s my plan, the storage seems useless to me ( kinda like a junk drawer) I’ll just put a cooler up there for added seating and a good platform to stand on. I will extend the cap back to incorporate a anchor locker and standing area, which will make the deck straight across the end of the stringers.
:great02:Keep up the work, inspiration to get back to mine
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Looking great! It is a huge accomplishment getting floor down. Almost feels like a boat at that point.
I like having a casting deck for kids, but then again I have a bow dodger and I’m not really set up for dedicated fishing.
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Yeah, no casting deck. Eventually I'm going to add bench seating along the sides, with hinged tops for extra seating and storage. I think for the first year at least, it will be a decent set of marine beanbag chairs. It will also allow me to keep the 3 year old in front of the console without fear of her going over for now.
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Ugh... already regretting the polyester resin... tho much easier to wet out, despite the terrible VOCs that periodically elevated beyond what my respirator could remove, it looks like what was previously wet out 1708, is now not completely wet out, like it soaked into the plywood... now I'm not sure what to do... I guess i coat over it with epoxy to seal it up? It wasn't going to bond well before, worse now I'm sure...
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May not be too bad. I put what little resin I had left over what's there. I'm not convinced I won't be able to pull the glass off in one sheet, and do It all over again in epoxy. We'll see how it looks tomorrow.
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What are you working on today? The topside of the floor? I tried doing a little work with poly the other day but it was so hot down here in FL that it was kicking before it could even wet out fully. We stopped before getting too far. I've heard that refrigerating the resin first can help when it gets hot.
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The underside of the deck. We'll see what tomorrow brings. It was only 75 degrees here today, not too hot. Someone has been suggesting a coat of thinned resin on the plywood first. I should have listened to that someone. I'm just afraid that if it's not bonded to the plywood, if I get any water under it, it will just migrate around in the deck and ruin the whole thing.... I hate to think I'm going to grind it all off...
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My guess is you could probably recoat, almost like a hot coat and you will be fine. If it drained downwards on its own, it will do it again and should fill in the voids. Foam roller may do the trick. The important thing for that type of layup is that the glass 1) got wet, and 2) is fully adhered, which it should be, in order to get your tension fibers engaged.
That said, I am not an expert in polyester... my limited knowledge is enough to know that I hate it though. I will take the extra expense of epoxy for almost any project.
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75?! Man, that's wintertime weather down here in FL lol. It's been 91-94 here everyday recently. I've heard about coating the wood first but I haven't tried it. I would make sure it's fully cured before you try peeling it off. Hopefully it will surprise you and stick well enough. Good luck 👍
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And the Bluefin tuna are in thick... I also hope it stuck, but either way I'm taking a week off to tuna fish. Let's hope I have a pic to share....
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I'll give it a couple of days, but it doesn't look good. I'm fairly convinced it can pull the whole thing off in a sheet other than a couple of spots that still look fully wet out. I put very little pressure upward on one of the edges, and it popped up about an inch in from the edge. Maybe I can pull the whole thing off and then epoxy it down, or just start from scratch. If i didn't know that it was fully wet out when I left, Id say i hadn't rolled all the air out. Thats how bad it looks. The low viscosity that made it so easy to wet out, kicked my A$$ in the end.
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Yikes, that sounds worse than I was envisioning. Very curious to hear how it cures.
Good luck going after tuna!
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Anyone else think theres no hope other than to rip this off and start again? I think it will peel right off the plywood. I wish i had a pic of when it was fully wet out to compare to. What a waste of time and materials. I figure its worthwhile to post this failure, to help others in the future. Whoever it was that recommended I start with a coating of thinned resin first, I should have listened. I'm assuming I was also supposed to let the thinned resin harden to keep the marine ply from wicking all my resin out of the glass mat.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200720_115909.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20454&title=20200720-115909&cat=864)
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20200720_115919.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20455&title=20200720-115919&cat=864)
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Is the glass actually delaminated, or just not saturated? If you press on the white areas, does it press down at all?
From a structural standpoint, if the glass is not delaminated and just has voids open from the top, I’d say it can be resaturated. Being that it’s the deck underside, it’s kind of redundant.
However, if the glass isn’t fully adhered to the ply, I’d say scrap it unfortunately.
If you have a little time, maybe make a small batch and try to soak one of the undersaturated areas and see what it does? May be worth a try and should only set you back a day for a potential fix.
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Its hardened up at this point, so I can't push hard enough in one spot to move it. But I guess my thought is, if i can rip it off with one hand... I'm probably better off to just do so? I have no polyester resin left, which only leaves me epoxy, and if i only partially get where I want to go with epoxy... its going to get to be a lot harder to clean up......
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I would stick with your plan - poly is fairly inexpensive compared to epoxy. Remember that 1708 has a 1.5 oz layer of CSM and that is really what the poly can dissolve and saturate. Poly doesn't melt anything on the 1708 itself, so the 1708 just hangs in the poly as it kicks.
If you have to redo this, you can possibly reuse the wood and sand/grind it down to about 80 grit. Then just hot coat it with poly, especially the edges. After that kicks, sand it with 80 grit and then prep it for the cloth again. You have to have the wood sealed because initially it soaks up the resin (as you found out).
I replaced my deck on my 170 back in the early 90s with 1/2" plywood and sealed the wood first. I had a small area somehow getting water on it by the casting deck, which became soft and I decided to do a total rebuild and bring it up to a new century of materials. The poly coated wood on the underside still looked like the day I coated it (not even sure if I put glass on it), but I did coat the bottom.
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Definitely not trying to sway your opinion one way or the other - you’re the one who’s had hands on it! If you don’t feel safe with it, rip it off for sure. I’m an optimist though, and it’s possible all may not be lost.
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Good news and Bad news... So I tried putting some epoxy over it, and no dice, just rested on the top, no absorption into the mat. The good news: I muckled onto the edge of the glass and pulled, and about a 3 foot section pulled up clean. Looks like in another 5 mins, I could have been right back down to the plywood. I'll sand it down a little and do It right. Only be down $50 in poly and 18 feet of 1708. Lesson learned. Epoxy, epoxy, epoxy. I'll look at the underside when I get it off. Maybe I can make new liners out of the 8'×9' sheet of fairly flexible fiberglass I just made... should be pretty smooth.
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Whether you use epoxy, poly or vinylester, it’s important to hot coat wood before you do your laminating. Otherwise, the wood continues to absorb resin throughout the cure and your layup is resin starved.
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So Bluefin Tuna season is over, so its back to work on the boat. 6 tuna, which beats our previous record of 1. One of the few positives from this whole Covid thing, pretty much spent all my free time tuna fishing. We learned a lot that I think it really took 2 weeks straight of fishing to work out the final details I think we needed to be consistently successful. Caught fish on 4 of the last 6 trips. Several big thresher sharks and a bunch of small porbeagle sharks as well. Back to the boat tho. All the glass on the underside of the main section of deck peeled off in 2 sheets (fairly easily). I'm not sure why, but i'm saving these sheets. They're fairly flexible and surprisingly strong. Maybe they will come in handy? I got 1/2 of the underside of the deck done with 1708 and EPOXY. Now I'm out of epoxy and am waiting for more from Jamestown. I also ordered another 25 yards of 1708. I'm hoping this is my last 25 yard roll. Should have the main section of deck finished by next weekend. Winter is comin... ugh.
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search around locally for epoxy resin, I've had good luck with a local place in west palm beach, FL called Glue Products. Their 1 gallon kit of epoxy resin goes for about $55/gal. Not sure if they ship though.
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US Composites has some considerably cheaper. I used their 2 part foam and it worked well. I may try using their product for my fillets when I put the deck in. After my polyester resin debacle I'm highly skeptical. Anybody have any experience with their products?
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Polyester resin starts hardening the instant it is produced. Most often your supplier receives 55gal drums of poly and then pumps it into smaller containers, like 5 gal and smaller. If air doesn't get to the poly. it can last longer, but once you start pouring from a 5gal can, it's a race to get the project done before it gels up.
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So.... Back at it. Covid has had me busier than usual. I work at a facility that makes toilet paper.... Anyway, I yarded the deck out, and trimmed all the excess glass around the edges, and sanded 4" in all the way around. I'm going to wrap glass around all the edges to fully seal up the deck. Then I need to cut out a hole for the controls tubing to come up through the deck into the console and by the transom. Need to clean the garage up a little too, to help make it easier to work. Shouldn't be too far from reinstalling the deck. That should help make it feel more like a boat again. I'm sick of walking around the stringers.
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20210411_133229.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21749&title=20210411-133229&cat=864)
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Good to see progress... hope you are able to get her out on the water this season! Finally starting to feel like spring around here.
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Put this in just to get some measurements... It will be awful nice to be putting it in permanantly. Hopefully here in a couple weeks. I'm damn tired of walking between stringers.
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20210417_155037.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21764&title=20210417-155037&cat=864)
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The first "new" thing I'm putting on the boat in 2 years... excluding glass, plywood, epoxy, my sweat and tears.
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20210527_060759.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21828&title=20210527-060759&cat=864)
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Getting Ready to install the deck. How much bonding putty should I use to keep it secure. I'm assuming I can stick to the center two stringers as I'll be glassing to the hull all the way around the outside?
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I went through about two gallons on the two stringers and then I ran a fillet around the sides before glassing it down.
https://classicaquasport.com/smf/index.php?topic=14797.210
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At a standstill on the deck, while I'm waiting for some wire for the running lights. So... on to the console
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20210616_190855.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21904&title=20210616-190855&cat=864)
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Rear section of Deck is in! Forward section is getting glassed... Should have the deck fully installed and tabbed in by the end of next week?
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/thumbnail_20210627_162202.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21922&title=thumbnail-20210627-162202&cat=864)
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Nice! :thumleft:
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Good progress. Nice to work indoors I bet.
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Some days indoors is great... Unless I'm sanding.... and the fit through the door is so tight i hate to pull it out and back it in. Our winters kind of suck for glass work though... with no heat in the garage.
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That’s awesome, can’t wait to see it in the water! Yep, garages are great but pretty much December through March is out for any real glasswork.
I saw a really nice, fully restored 191 down on Bailey Island yesterday... definitely very distinctive lines, and made me look twice because the color and rig was very similar to my 170!
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I'm actually starting to feel like I'm putting it back together. Its a good feeling. I'm sure when I get into the whole sanding and fairing thing I'll come back down to earth.
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Great work! :thumleft:
I love your shop!
//Lars
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Deck... Check! Need to do a little more sanding, but should be setting the forward section soon. Fits nice.
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/thumbnail_20210708_060621.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21936&title=thumbnail-20210708-060621&cat=864)
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:thumleft:
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Foreward deck section is now epoxied to the stringers. Also tabbed the rear deck section to the hull sides. Starting to look like a boat again.
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20210729_195329.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21975&title=20210729-195329&cat=864)
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That's awesome! Are you looking to get her floating this summer/fall and finish it up over the winter, or get it completely done before you splash?
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I'm gonna push for this fall, but realistically it will be next spring. I'm still tossing around in my head whether or not to put a split bench seat in the front. I think I'd be happy with just bean bag chairs, which would leave that space open for fishing if I wanted, but I'm literally going to have no storage. The under console area is already full. I have the original cooler seat, which I'll probably reinstall to put lifejackets and a first aid kit in. Decisions decisions.... I hate to paint, then decide I want the split bench seat.
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I have an open, level deck up front in mine. We run two beanbag chairs up there, wife loves them. While it would suck, you could always add a bench seat later. That would suck less than A) not using your boat for the amount of time it takes to fab the seat, and B) spending time and money to fab the seat then wishing it wasn't there when you are fishing. Two cents.
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Two years... Really? I'm still alive, and started working on the boat again today. Funny how you have one task that you just dread, and find every reason to not complete it. I needed to take the cap off fully, so I can finish lining the inside of the hull with 1708, and it took me 2 years to grind the heads off 20 bolts. Either way, tonight the cap is OFF! Now I just need to remind my wife why I resumed my $300 a week epoxy habit.
Quick question. I'm going to grind off all the material they used to bond the liner to the hull, but what have people done in situations where they're not reinstalling the liner? Should I run a couple layers of 4" fiberglass tape all around the top of the gunwale to give some meat to reattach the cap to? It would also stiffen things up a bit I'm assuming. Thoughts? Suggestions?
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20230624_182014.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=23505&title=20230624-182014&cat=864)
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20230624_183843.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=23506&title=20230624-183843&cat=864)
(https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/data/864/20230624_183933.jpg) (https://classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=23507&title=20230624-183933&cat=864)
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Those were some really tough bolts I guess :confused1: :coolB:
As for refinishing the hull sides you have a few options. The liner did a good job of hiding the unfinished hull sides and now you have to finish them. You can step down to something like 12 oz material and then top that with 6oz?
My 170 had a piece of wood along the top of the hullsides that the cap was screwed into. It was like a 1"x2" piece that was glassed to the hullsides.
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Glad you're back at it. I used leftover coosa that I ripped into one inch strips and puttied to the lip. Then went over the inside with a little more putty and a strip of 1708. After a little sanding to clean the tops off, I had a nice spot to set the new cap on.
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Fair, sand, repeat, fair, sand, repeat, fair, sand, repeat......
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yup....one day at a time.....you're getting there.