1973 Aquasport 222 Rebuild

[dirtwheelsfl]

It is a little more work, but it is really worth the extra effort in my opinion, as there isn't a whole lot of glass in these old hulls.

Agreed. Very nice to have a clean, uniform surface to bond to. Cant have enough stiffness...

[Fuelman]

I got the transom all prepped for glass today. I am going to clamp a mold surface to the stern and glass the transom closed, then bed the coosa board and glass it all in. Using a variety of mat and biax for each layer.  

I am about to start glassing but need to make a decision. Vinyl ester or epoxy? I've heard all the pros and cons and about how epoxy is better for secondary bonds etc...  But I have a buddy who has been in the fiberglass repair business for 30 years and has never had a failure using nothing but poly and vinyl ester resin. His method is to bed parts in epoxy or adhesive but laminate, glass and tab everything with polyester after a 24 grit scuff up.  Am I missing something here? He warns
That epoxy can crack, must be mixed perfectly and is much harder to work with. I've read all the threads on the topic but still can't make up my mind.

[dirtwheelsfl]

The only negative epoxy has is the price if you ask me. Epoxy fillers will crack certainly, but nothing like a polyester-based will. Like dry angel hair pasta compared to dry ziti. Mixing is simple, usually 2:1. No mek ratio guess work. There are different speed hardeners, but i always just use slow unless i really want a small batch of glue to kick off or something. Cleans with denatured alcohol and water, no acetone to burn you and no fumes. Using epoxy on some things and PE or VE on others would complicate things i would think.

Laminate some glass on plywood with epoxy and then do it with P/VE. See which one wins when you try to pull it off.
I might be biased because its all ive ever known, but ive seen too much poly delam to ever REbuild with it.

[Fuelman]

I am proabably going to go with epoxy.  It's just tough having a guy whos been a master of fiberglass his entire life strongly suggest otherwise.  Maybe he's just stuck in his ways, but he had a lot of reasons not to.  I guess I'll make up my mind here shortly.

In the mean time here's some more porn.  I got the template made and will be cutting the Coosa board this afternoon.  Measure twice cut once. Going to try and have the outer skin coat molded this weekend if all goes well.



Working into the night... sorry for the dark picture  :afro:

[dirtwheelsfl]

Yes im set in my ways too haha. Try some small samples of each and see how you like it maybe?
Make sure your template goes all the way out to the hullsides and down to the hull bottom though...

[Fuelman]

yea it does... the first picture looks like i was just "filling the hole" but i just had it taped on the outside so I could trace the hullsides to get a rough shape.  The second pic is dark but the template laps over the outside skin and goes all the way.

[dirtwheelsfl]

Gotcha. Good deal...

[Fuelman]

Well I went to order my transom materials today and my buddy brought me to a screeching hault... again.  This materials decision is a very big one so I need to think it through.

My original plan was my 1.5" coosa transom with 3 layers of glass on the outside, 4 on the inside... all laminated with epoxy resins.  

His opinion is that it is WAAAYYY overkill and adds a lot of uneccessary weight and money.  His idea was 3 layers on the outside for thinkness, one complete layer on the inside, tabbed in on the inside with 3-4 overlapping seams, and add a strong back... his view is that with all the large tabs and stong back there will be very little area that doesnt have A LOT of glass, and the strongback will add more strength than all that glass.  And he wants it all done with POLYESTER resin.  

Again this guy is GOOD.  He has a great rep and does great work so it's really hard to second guess his opinion.  I only want to do this transom ONCE in my life and I want it right.

His arguement about the epoxy/poly pull test is that yes epoxy is sticky, and is great for a glue, but as far as laminating all the glass with epoxy is not needed and in some cases a bad idea.  He seems to think for boat building it is not the right product....

Any more ideas?

[Georgie]

FM-

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread, but what plans do you have for a finish coat?  I can tell you from experience that, if you plan to re-gelcoat any of this work, you will absolutely need a barrier coat of vinyl-ester primer over any epoxy that you use for your lay up, which is another step and another cost to consider.  If you plan to paint or use some other epoxy compatible topcoat, then it's less of an issue.  If your guy swears he can get a good physical/secondary bond using poly or vinyl-ester, then that's my vote for all exposed work based primarily on price and simplicity, and also partly to keep with the character of the original construction.  Also, if he does most of the transom work with a wet layup then I'd imagine the only secondary bonds that could possibly delam will be at the sides/corners where the new transom glass is tabbed into the old hull glass.  Any hidden stringer/under deck work that won't need to be finished could be done in epoxy b/c it absolutely will have a stronger bond to the existing glass.  I can't comment on strength of layers of laminate around the coosa though.  Zero familiarity there.  Can you explain the "strong back" your buddy's recommending?   Take your time, consider all the factors that matter to you, and be confident with your final decision.  There's obviously a WEALTH of information here from which I'm sure you'll be able to glean your answer.  

...and DW - this is NOT meant to undermine any of your previous comments re: epoxy.  I've read your threads and your work/experience is impressive.  

[Fuelman]

The strong back was basically a composite 2x4 going across the back of the transom to add ridgidity.  I know that overbuilt can't be bad besides weight which I am already saving by using composite, I just want a nice, clean build that I hopefully dont ever need to re-do in my lifetime.

As far as topcoat, I will probably use paint so compatibility shouldn't be an issue.

[dirtwheelsfl]

Georgie- no worries, i cant be offended haha and thanks

Certainly alot of ways to do it. If youre comfortable with going that route and trust his methods, then go for it. The proof is in his pudding, which youve seen firsthand and sounds good. Big stringer to transom knees is something to think about too...

[Fuelman]

I laid the first two layers of 1.5oz mat..  I am going to lay 3 layers of 1708 before I bed the coosa board.  I laid the glass and it was flawless, but this morning I went and looked and there was a bunch of bubbles in between the layers.  I am going to sand them out and lay one more layer of 1.5oz just to be safe.  Anyone know what could have caused this?

[dirtwheelsfl]

Could be a number of things. Youre hard-rolling correct? From the pics they dont look that big, maybe like some of the mat strands got folded back onto themselves and just got bunched up and pushed up the layer on top? Sweat and moisture can do that too, any contaminant really.

Looks like youve got her under control!

[Fuelman]

I tried rolling them out but the mat just stuck to the roller and messed it up.. I'm going to do one more layer today and use a lot less catalyst.  I think it was tacking up way to quick.  We will see what happens.  

This is my first time really doing fiberglass but i'm learning.  Just gonna grind and re-do anything that is questonable

[dirtwheelsfl]

Yea, its pretty hard to hard-roll mat with perfect results. the biaxial will roll out nicely. Looks like you've already done it, but i was going to suggest taping or clamping the top edge of glass and fold it over the back, then wet out underneath, then flip the glass back onto the inside. pretty much have to do that with 1708... keep the grinder flat and youll be fine!