4 or 2 Stroke

[fishbonz]

Tom and Wilson-  If you guys want to go for a little ride- give me a call.  I'm in the water at TYCC.

[RickK]

The weight is a killer on these older hulls that really weren't designed for them.

I know this has been hammered around before and now it's my turn I guess: I'm considering updating my motor (17yrs old) and can't believe how heavy these newer motors are. (AND expensive   ) My '88 'rude 110 is 305lbs dry (according to NADA - only place I could find weights for this old anchor - and while I was there, I also found it to be worthless :cry: ) and a new 2-cycle 115 weighs in between 360 & 380 !!  I would have thought that they would be getting lighter as they got newer.  The 4-strokes are easily 100+ pounds heavier at 115hp   .  My little boat would probably sink as I let it off the trailer with one of them on it.
I used to have an old (late '70s) merc in-line 6 150 that was lighter than these new 115s.
I sure had my heart set on a 4-stroke due to the quietness and clean running of them - a boat with twin 4-stroke 150s pulled into the dock today beside me and you could barely hear them running, my wife even commented on them - I started mine up and they couldn't hear (nor see) theirs anymore.
I really don't want to step down in hp to get something comparable in weight to the 110 - would rather step up :twisted: , but don't think my boat/transom could handle the weight.  It already sits pretty low as it is (scuppers under).
Any ideas?

[Radioshop]

I've sort of been wrestling with the same issues.  I've got a '91 175 Mercury Black Max and it's heavy, but the newer stuff is really heavy.  I'm kind of also at a loss as to what to do.  Out of all the new four strokes the Yamaha f 150 is the lightest 150, because it's a four cylinder, everyone else has a V-6.  I've also done some bizarre out of the box thinking too.  I thought about twin Tohatsu 70's, which are the lightest 70's you'll find or, even more bizarre yet, tripple 50's, but the support gear for all of that would be unreliable and, what would the neighbors say?  I'm just not sure how much I trust Tohatsu's, plus try to find parts for one.  We can put a man on the moon, but what about a lighter outboard?  I don't see any weight loss in the outboard's future either in light of the portly Verados.   You notice how engine makers are buying boat builders?  Notice how new boats are designed for the heavier motors?  How's this for a conspiracy theory, manufacturers make heavier motors so you'll eventually be forced to buy their boats that can handle the fat motors?

[steved]

How about the Suzuki 140, 4 cyl 4 stroke? - their site puts it at 410 lbs, which is a lot less than the Yammy 150 at 466 - although still no lightweight.

[Bluesbrother]

Guys,
I have debated quite long if I would mention anything about something that happened to me an is still ongoing, but here it is:
I too have been wondering what engine to choose to put on my CC, secretly wishing for a 4 stroke but reality checking for anything affordable. Now you all will most probably have seen a couple of Florida dealers offering great deals on 4 stroke Johnson engines. Especially 140's Unfortunately I need a 20" shaft and I was looking for a 115 HP, so the 140 was no good to me but I decided to contact them anyway. Just my luck, they had one 115 4 stroke, 20" at a great price! Shipping to Miami would be peace a cake since they were only three hours away and I would make sure it would then be shipped here(Aruba). I had to transfer the money and they would ship. On August 26th Roadway picked up the motor, and had a scheduled delivery for Sept 1st. To make a long story short, they lost the motor for about two weeks and then found it in a warehouse in Maryland. We then had to wait a week for a South bound truck who didn' deliver it to Miami, no, they dropped it back at the dealer it left from. On Friday the 23rd of sept, the moter was finally deliverd in Miami by a different trucking company after leaving the day before....
But, I also needed controls and rigging stuff for the motor the dealer couldn't supply the stuff so he reffered me to a friend dealer who is also advertising the 140's and he could help me out no problem. I had to pay by credit card and he would ship to Miami. So I ordered all the stuff including a so called Commander gauge which was about $ 30 more expensive than the regular OMC unit, but according to him well worth the money. I was in Miami on business, so I picked up this package before it would load in the container, to bring it in myself and save some$$ on import duties (22%) But when I opened the box I discovered the "cheaper" Omc tag gauge as well as a second hand wiring harnass tha actually has plier cut ends! When I called they made all kind of excuses, and apologised, they had sent the wrong stuff. We agreed that I would pick up the right stuff next day. Next day came I called before we would leave and he told me don't bother coming  because the Commander gauge has a crack, so I have to send it back. As of last Friday they finally have the right stuff ther, but now he doesn' t want to send me the stuff before I have send heim back the old stuff saying he has $ 300 "out there". I don't know what to do yet..
I am sorry I have posted such a long story, but I wanted to warn others, that don't live close by and can't pick up the stuff themselves. I have spend a fortune in phonecalls in an effort to get something for the money I paid, to both companies. I sure hope this engine is worth it.
Rudy.

[DEFIANT]

WOW! What a nightmare!

I sometimes wonder if all the time, money and effort to have a boat is worth it.

Fortunately when I get out on the water chasing fish or just crusing I realize IT IS!!!

Just an FYI that may help you in the future, Johnson 4 strokes are made by Suzuki.

[RickK]

Blues - That sucks!!  Dare you tell us who the dealers are?  The mis-shipping was not the fault of the first dealer (I assume) but the rigging....  I'd rather know who not to go to.  If there is something I can do from this end to help nudge them, let me know.  Maybe you can PM me if you don't want to "say aloud".
I've not had much luck surfing for prices on the internet - maybe don't know what keywords to use besides the obvious.
About Johnson, is that the low end of the Evinrude/Johnson family now?  In the old days they were pretty much the same, now, in my research I see that the Johnsons are cheaper.
Steved - I don't know if my boat would handle another 100 lbs (Suzuki 140).  I think I'm going to launch my boat and then put some sand bags (100lbs) on the motor and do some before and after pictures of how the boat is sitting in the water.  Then I can mull over this until I can make a decision - if I let a dealer make the decision I know what the answer will be. Wrong.
I also am thinking of going to Ellis Outboards in Bradenton and look at used o/b.  Hate to do this but not sure I want throw the amount of a new moter at the boat compared to the low amount of hours I put on it each year.  A used o/b would last me forever just like a new one.

[Bluesbrother]

Maybe, possibly, hopefully some good news, UPS is on their way to my forwarder in Miami with a package with the correct gauge and wiring harness. If all goes well I will let you guys know.  
I don't know much about the Johnson - Evinrude tug of war, but what I understand, Bombardier wants to put all effort and research into the E-tecs, who knows if they will ever bring a Johnson E-tec into the market. They went with the "Suzuki" deal to be able to compete in the years that there wasn't a full lineup of E-tecs available. I guess Johnson was the easiest to use since they would have been able to sell both the 4 strk Johnsons and Evinrude Etecs simultaneously for a while. The import duties thing on the "Suzuki-Johnsons" 4 strks however killed that plan, pricing those motors completely out of the market.
It seems that the Suzuki 4 strks are about the best there is, I am assuming the Johnson- Suzuki's would fall in the same category. At least I hope so for my own sake.

[RickK]

I decided to make the visit to see Drew at Ellis Outboard Marine in Bradenton Monday and it was a very pleasant encounter.  Drew (owner) was very informative with a lot of AS knowledge and I talked to him about putting a 4-stroke on my boat.  He took me out in his yard where he has a couple AS, to show me why I shouldn't put one on my boat.  Seems one of his friends had a '83-85 170/175 and against Drew's advice, put a bracket with jackplate and a, I think, 4 stroke 150.  The boat is in Drew yard and he showed me it - nice - but on the maiden voyage the fella either turned and stopped, stern-facing, a following sea or just stopped too fast and water poured over the stern and the boat capsized. He had a bilge pump but couldn't pump it out fast enough I guess.  That answered all my questions!!
Anyway, I decided to go with one of his totally rebuilt 115 Johnsons.  He sends every head out for total rebuild and goes through the rest with a fine tooth comb replacing all wiring, anything that is the least bit suspect, paints everything and puts new decals on it to boot.  He showed me one that was ready to go on a boat and you couldn't tell it was rebuilt -looked new.  He also backs it with a 1 year full warranty. Less than half of what a new one costs.
I also asked him to see if he had a used hydraulic steering system, he said he thought he did and would put it on.
I should get it back next week and I'll let you know.

[Radioshop]

Rick the 150 4s on 170 is a really extreme example.  I think a 150 2s would be too much engine for a boat rated for 130.  I think a 4s 90 would be okay but that's about it.  Oh and a bracket on a 17' boat?  What an ultramaroon!!!

[RickK]

As I posted earlier, I had a 150 straight 6 Merc on mine when I bought it.  It would fly and I was always watching the backwash as I came off plane - too close for comfort.  Didn't have the problem anymore when I put the 110 on it.  The newer 115 is about 20 lbs heavier than the 110 - no worry (but more power   ).  As for the 150 4s on the 170....boyz will be boyz...the mechanic that rebuilt my lower unit told me he would have put a 200 on mine if he'd of rigged it...I have a guy at work that has a 17 Mako with a 200 on it....boyz will be boyz  :twisted:

[gcapehart]

Thanks for the input.

As far as I have read the E-tecs use VERY little oil (especially when using synthetic).  They are slightly noisier at Idle, but about the same at WOT.  The hole shot is comparable with 2 strokes as is the wieght.  The fuel economy is as good if not better than the 4 strokes.  The service is much cheaper than with a 4 stroke too.  The real kicker is E-tec = 7 YEAR WARRANTY. 

Hard to beat that.  Only place it loses is on idle noise.

Wilson,
       Do you have an ETEC and have others found what you said to be true? We have an 82 25xf with a Johnson vro 225 that still runs great. Is an ETEC with the weight savings and Evinrude claims true to form. We are considering a repower. Thanks, Gary and Suzy

[CTsalt12]

Can you even get new 2 strokes these days?

4 strokes sure are quiet and smooth and nice.  Easy decision for me if I were to get a new engine.

About 60 lbs more if I remember from my research.  On a 23 foot boat how much of a difference could it be?  You're not going to get your feet wet.  Throw a sandbag in the bow.  Little extra weight, it will help pound through chop. 

[CLM65]

Can you even get new 2 strokes these days?

Yes.  Evinrude ETEC and Mercury Optimax.