Classic AquaSport
Aquasport Model Rebuilds, Mods, Updates and Refreshes => Family Fisherman/Dual Console/Sport Rider Rebuilds => Topic started by: 4shore on October 06, 2013, 07:50:06 AM
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Knowing that there was a 22-2 named the miss Delmarva and it is involved with one of the best rebuild threads on the web I figured I'd pay homage with my thread since I live on the eastern shore of Maryland .(Delmarva)
I'll start by telling you plan for the boat. It will be used almost year round starting with the spring rockfish season which involves a lot of trolling. Down to the tunnel for drum and cobia. Then some offshore trips in the summer. Then back to the bay for the fall rockfish run. The biggest departure from all this will be in the winter when it gets used for duck hunting. There is a great opportunity on the Chesapeake for diver hunting on open water especially using lay out boats which the large deck on the 246 will come in handy.
Pic of boat in driveway
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/6201563862b0d64da89fbb40235c969e_zps70f66c7b.jpg)
Pic of stern and the huge 68"x20" cut out. That's going away!
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/b7afd35de8943eccbb549cfe5b9c6172_zps05d7e187.jpg)
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This is my idea for the new transom shape. I had already spoken to bondobill about it and he has provided some really good info. I was told by others that I could go as narrow as 28". I would like to enclose the transom as much as possible due to the removal of the splash well.
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/953241d10d8fe946d186276575f52ac9_zps92cec510.jpg)
This is the splash well that is getting cut out to gain more floor space,almost 3'!
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/8f3b4a39b4d8d830456ab97eaf9a2677_zps151e8597.jpg)
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Very 8) to have another Ms. D aboard! Keep the pics of the progress coming, and good luck!
:afro:
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Looks like another rebuild I can learn from, let the skill saw/jig saw/sawzall melee begin :cheers:
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Ask and you shall receive
Putting her to sleep in her crib. The shop has an overhead gantry chain hoist which helped a lot but it still needed some good ole country strong on it! The rear chines are actually resting on those heavy steel platforms that car dealerships roll their cars up on for display. Scored the four boat stands off of Craigslist $160!!
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/7e48fabb115d40e5e069a60f6813428b_zps02511284.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/c0fb93b60e0bcdcad280d221fa0c4e8d_zpsb2cce838.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/e72ea290a28e67bca8bc356802a5a3a7_zpsf5ef18e0.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/05835c6f3ca2b30bac525b52e36a490c_zps14eef1c3.jpg)
Removing the teak and rub rail
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/1b4f4d7c061b19013d25792baf0b952d_zps57375e03.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/bc50f3bea9bd5e0490a683cd61bf805b_zpsc8f28b68.jpg)
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Btw there are two more boat stands supporting the stern. More pics soon, off to train the bird dogs!
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Good to see you started your own thread! I went down to OB and retrieved Slipaway on Friday before Karen got any closer. Now (of course) it has pretty much fallen apart. You asked for measurements on the cutout on Slipaway so here you go. It has a 25 inch transom measured from under the keel to the top of the transom. The cutout at the top of the transom is right at 37 inches if you square off the rounded corners. It then slightly widens out to where it reaches the cap to about 38 inches.
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//602/boat_005.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4958&title=boat-005&cat=602)
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Nice, thanks. So with a 200-250 you don't think I could squeeze it down to 28"? Btw are those those tabs that self adjust? How do they do for you?
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I like the width on mine, it makes it a easy to step off the swim platform into the back of the boat and not have to squeeze past the cowling. Yes, those are smart tabs and they help with the porpoising problem and getting the hull out of the hole. They do help with tracking in turns and not letting it slide.
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How do you get paint on your phone? is it an app?
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It's on my iPad but its called draw on photo. Cost a dollar or so. Comes in handy for work a bunch when trying to explain things to my crews
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Beveling the seams and then cutting the liner out. I used a laser measure so ill be able to line up the sides correctly when I reinstall the liner
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/c048a3113c165c44a48f0611fe91836c_zpsd47000cf.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/00249cf4d7328a8e0bc70f517e5afb37_zps5cf81546.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/d81b33546be95c9537d3d643aeee7f1b_zps0d5364a1.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/990ab10b448c438385dd2a360e5ed29a_zpsce445394.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/ca4b6d4d95d2e704ffae26c6cb792c95_zps43813862.jpg)
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Plywood in the splahwell was rotten
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/ee08fc01d55609d22a5df8cc4d1b0277_zps36f65e87.jpg)
Drilled some test holes in the stringer and found it to be hollow. Drilled the other stringer and found the same thing. I was under the impression that they were foam filled
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/d4910ac71948ec372ba939235bb0e4ed_zpsb6d9c35a.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/24ea48cb9eca642069d488047246963e_zps3b447532.jpg)
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Plywood in the splahwell was rotten
Drilled some test holes in the stringer and found it to be hollow. Drilled the other stringer and found the same thing. I was under the impression that they were foam filled
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/d4910ac71948ec372ba939235bb0e4ed_zpsb6d9c35a.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/24ea48cb9eca642069d488047246963e_zps3b447532.jpg)
Maybe it was a Friday boat.
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I kinda hope that's the case because the floor is the next project and if they are hollow then I don't have to cut the tops off and fill them with foam. I can just drill holes and fill.
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Transom core coming out
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/null_zpsdacb7c38.jpg)
Holes in the hull from where I guess the aquasport logo was riveted?
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/37b5b22f94bf2457ccdebf82eac450b6_zps3bafa9b3.jpg)
Not sure what I'm going to do about this yet but there is a small strip of wood core right along the top edge of the hull where it's screwed to the liner. Do I just dig it out and replace it with solid glass or do I just glass the original back in?
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/a71d8ba786d45c6087fe9e5f6cf0cbfe_zps4161fd22.jpg)
Next question. In this photo you can see where there is a mixture of CSM and roving. Do I need to gring all the CSM out down to the roving or can I just grind until I get to clean non delaminated glass
regardless of the type of glass?
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/ac9090df81ba634695e8462cae13dfa3_zpse7629f9c.jpg)
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4shore - I have a 246 as well, though it's a CCC not the FF version you you have. Nice looking project. Will be watching intently. Looks like you're primary goal is to close and raise the transom more for single engine? What is or will be your engine? :salut: Did you keep the teak bench seat? They are VERY hard to come by if even remotely solid and may be worth some $$. At the very least, can you get a pattern from it? I might even be interested in the original hinges if you're not re-using them. Pretty much every 246 remaining on the planet is missing it's bench seat, and it cost me nearly $500 in teak to make my replacement.
Re: the wood trim in your gunwale, unless it's in your way and/or rotted, I'd leave it and work around it (if it made it 30 years in it's current location, it can probably make it a few more), but I'm just not that into replacing and removing things that are still functional unless it conflicts with your rebuild plan. 2 cents.
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The teak was actually in really good shape and I do have the bench or at least what looks like half of it. I'm guessing there's a top section that folds back on itself that I'm missing?
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/bd3d66564ea98e64f1d4febafe2e3c1c_zps59098d47.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/8f3b4a39b4d8d830456ab97eaf9a2677_zps151e8597.jpg)
Haven't decided on an engine yet but leaning towards a mid 2000's 200 hp Yamaha hpdi. Those seems to be the best motor in my price range
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DUDE! Did you do all of that yesterday? If you can can maintain that pace throughout this whole thing, you are a savage. :salut:
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Ha ha no that's a bit of a time lapse. I only get to work on it an hour or two at a time but when it's 90 degrees (where the hell is the real October at anyway?) I sweat my butt off in that tyvek suit and don't want to be in it much longer than that. If your gonna do one of these projects invest in some of them, a box of nitrile gloves, duct tape(to tape where the gloves met the suit.) and a full face respirator. The respirator gives you respiratory and eye protection. I have been able to negate 95% of the dreaded itch that everyone warns about, but you're gonna sweat!!!
Thinking ahead to the lamination schedule for the transom. I am thinking of laying down at least two layers of 1708 prior to laying in the coosa core. The original thickness of the transom was 2" I am using 2 sheets of 3/4 coosa. Thoughts?
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4shore, where are you on the shore, if you don't mind saying? This the first build on the board that is closer to me then any other. Wouldn't mind seeing it first hand if its ok. :mrgreen:
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Salisbury. Pm me if you wanna discuss or meet up. By your sig I'm guessing you're in southern Sussex county?
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Heck, over here we call Salisbury next door. I’m just 4 miles east of Selbyville, in a little town called Roxana. I come over that way 4-6 time a month. I get all my welding supplies their as well as a number of other things. :thumleft:
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Yup I go thru roxana all the time on my way to the deleware beach area. If your getting welding supplies in the industrial park on the north end then you are right around the corner from my office.
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Welcome aboard!!
Thanks for the nice words about Miss D, very much appreciated. That build was a group effort from all the gang here :thumright: and when it was finished, to be totally honest.....the thrill of the chase was what it was all about :mrgreen: It was a lot of fun.
So now we run it pretty much....then I clean it A LOT :mrgreen:
We're all looking forward to your work. There is great experience and knowledge here, and as I'm sure you're aware everyone gives freely of their expertise.
Again, welcome, and my apologies for not responding sooner. Just getting back into town after the weekend.
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I get my supplies from Matheson valley. On a road just off 13 just south of the by pass. And now that I think about it, it is on the north side. nerve really though about that. I've got a friend who's business is just south of the college. Burnie has been their forever.
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Christ, you guys are still seeing 90s up there? Hell, we're getting REAL tired of that chit down here! Supposed to get a change when this rain moves through, mid 80s, upper 60s...c'mon winter!!
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Yep 80+ deg today high humidity and blowing 30 mph with the sun out! Welcome to the eastern shore! We are pretty much a sand bar between the ocean and the Chesapeake. Makes for wacky weather.
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Yeah saltfly you are one block away at matheson. My company is the one right around the corner with the yellow trucks
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Next question. In this photo you can see where there is a mixture of CSM and roving. Do I need to gring all the CSM out down to the roving or can I just grind until I get to clean non delaminated glass
regardless of the type of glass?
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/ac9090df81ba634695e8462cae13dfa3_zpse7629f9c.jpg)
Yea that mat's gotta come out. Probably be able to chisel most of it off. Other pics look good and wet out, but id take the mat down as well while youre in there grinding. Not much there it looks like...
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Good thing I bought that 7.5 " grinder!
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Good thing I bought that 7.5 " grinder!
An air chisel and a multi-tool really come in handy too. An air chisel especially makes quick work of bulk removal.
Oh. Also, i don't know how relevant it is but the last 3 feet or so of my stringers didn't have any foam either. It was almost like they only get so much per boat... :scratch: But, then again my boat is a 1966, may not have anything to do with your stringers being empty back there.
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Is there any way to put enough foam in the stringers to gain neutral buoyancy or will I have to re pour foam into the hull?
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Is there any way to put enough foam in the stringers to gain neutral buoyancy or will I have to re pour foam into the hull?
You will get about 62 pounds of bouyancy for every cubic foot of foam you have. If you can determine the weight of your boat and your engine, then divide by 62, that will let you know approximately how much foam you will need. I'm not sure how much volume there is in your stringers, but my initial guess is that you will also need at least some amount of foam between the stringers to keep the boat from going under.
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Welcome to the site and I look forward to following your build. I Just foamed my 1979 246ccp stringers and I needed 3 1/2 gallons of 2 lb foam to do it. I think 3 gals is just a bit short even taking into consideration the waste I had. I have my build in progress on here as well if it can be of any help to you. I look forward to your progress
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I have been watching yours also!
How many cubic ft did you get out of your 2# foam after pouring 3.5 gal?
My thought process is this: 3000 lb for the boat taking into account fuel
500 lb for motor
Another 500 for incidentals. On board water, ice beer food fishing gear.
1000 lb of people (5 guys at 200 lb)
So 5000 lb total which means I will need 80 cu. ft. Of foam at 62 lb of buoyancy.
Do these #'s sound right how feasible is 80 cu ft in this hull?
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how feasible is 80 cu ft in this hull?
How much room do you have?
8' x 5' x 2'= 80 c.f
Start chopping up space below deck. Include the stringers.
Good luck.
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I wouldn't include most of those incidentals: the water is going to be neutrally bouyant, gas will be slightly bouyant, people can float, etc. I would only include the things that would sink by themselves and are attached to the boat. Still going to be a lot of foam, but not as bad as you might think.
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With some wicked math help from captain bob, we were able to figure that the stringer volume on a 246 is about 14 cu ft. Thats 28 sq ft to start. I think 80 is impossible. You may be looking at about 40-50 in total. Its hard to say what kind of expansion you will get per gallon as it affected by temperature, how well it was mixed, an even the angle at which it was poured. I had voids that I had to touch up because they were on the other side of a low spot in the stringer. Also, mixing it 2 quarts at a time (1qt a, 1 qt b) left "hills and valleys" of the foam which affected flow.
As for your math on buoyancy, you have not taken into account the inherent bouyancy of various materials. For example, the plywood in your boat, the cooler, your fishing buddies and even the fiberglass itself have bouyancy. So the foam is adding bouyancy to items that are already bouyant. I hope to never find out if my boat is buoyant when swamped, but in preparation I am foaming the stringers and adding foam (sections, not poured) anywhere I can like in spots under the floor under the coffin box, and the outsides of the stringers.
The immediate importance for the foam job is to get any potentially wet, heavy foam out, and to re-foam the stringers for the rigidity that the foam adds to the stringer. Some guys pull 2-4 hundred pounds of wet foam and wood out of their boats. The old generation foam held water while today's foam is closed celled and will not hold water.
Tearing a boat apart allows you to investigate every inch of it to make sure it is sound or to correct what isn't. The work is Bittersweet as I love it and hate it for different reasons, but the cost savings and the pride factor is what keeps me going. I can't wait to get out there and get asked "who did your work??" I will stand there and smile
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I wouldn't include most of those incidentals: the water is going to be neutrally bouyant, gas will be slightly bouyant, people can float, etc. I would only include the things that would sink by themselves and are attached to the boat. Still going to be a lot of foam, but not as bad as you might think.
Good thinking.
Load up the stringers with closed cell foam. Then plan your runs, tubes etc.
In the areas that are left open....put in foam sheets/blocks. They'll float up under the deck in case of emergency. In the meantime, they sit there, deadening the sound of hull slap. Available in varying thicknesses/configurations. And add the safety you're looking for.
The good news with a floating system....they're not bedded to the bilge per either side, holding water.
Also makes it easier to dry the bilge in the off season.
Koz...came behind you as posting. More good thinking. And as you say, when you're asked who did the work....give 'em that big smile. As we discussed, the thrill is in the hunt. The build is the deal :thumright:
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How about filling the void between the inner liner and the outer hull in the freeboard/gunwale area? I am running the new floor all the way out the the outer hull so I could drill holes and pour thru the top. This would also deaden any hull slap, no?
I am also looking for opinions on lamination schedule for the transom if anyone has them.
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I guess you could add pieces between the hull and cap. I dont see how you could pour as there are way too many holes for the foam to come out of on a pour. Im fairly confident that it should float if you fill most of the area under the floor. ALso, not that the foam weighs much, but i dont know if I would want to add weight above the waterline in the gunwales. Im not sure if that would affect steering and roll to some extent. I dont think anyone has gone to the level of adding to that space. Im not an expert, but I do not immediately see why you couldnt. I guess its up to you. Theoretically it would float better if swamped with the bouyancy up high and the dead weight low. As stated before I hope we never have to find out.
I am trying to mindful of overall weight. There have been a few times where I have said to myself that I would like to add glass here and there, however taking out 200 lbs of wet foam and wood and replacing it with 200 lbs of building materials could be counter productive. The boat isnt going to break. Mine hasnt broken in 34 years so it doesnt need me to make her stronger. I am trying to keep it within reason. I have no idea how she is going to run with the changes I am making. Think about the effect your buddies have on the boat when walking around on her while under way. Basically just be mindful of weight and ask yourself if what you are doing is necessary.
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I am trying to brainstorm ways of keeping my floatation foam out from under the deck. I don't mind it in the stringers but I really would like the water that may make it below deck to be able to move uninhibited to the bilge.
I like the idea of the foam sheets but wouldn't they bang around in the bilge if not glued to the hull or floor or stringers? What about if when I install the floor I adhere the sheets to the underside of the floor? That would provide floatation and sound deadening properties and still allow water to flow to bilge.
Keep in mind I will be adding below deck storage ( fish boxes) and seating like bondo bills. I could incorporate foam into these builds also to pick up a few cu. ft.
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/e725bc8b5716c7bea57a9c9eabc20f98_zps53ed678d.jpg)
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Don't worry about adhering the sheet foam. It just sits in there outboard of the stringers, and doesn't move around much. Even if it did, there is no noise associated. It doesn't float, as (hopefully) there is no water there. The water will be below this area in the bilge.
If you decide to foam the area between the liner and the hull sides, do it in small increments. As we all know, a little goes a long way, sure don't want to push out the liner. Seems like a member a while back was talking about gluing this area :scratch: Can't remember the thread though.
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Floatation and foam..
The big question is why. The answer is not always that obvious.. Scotty mentioned noise deadening. Good reason.. Another answer is “because it was there for me to take out so it must have been there for a reason”.. Plausible but not the best, we all know that “it has always been that way ” isn't always the right answer..
If you are interested in foaming the voids to give the deck a big landing area and plan on gluing the deck to the foam that will make it crazy solid and strong and that would in my opinion be the best reason to foam the void. But with a good glass schedule for the deck that strength for normal sport use is way overkill. (Not a bad thing mind you)
Strength, that is a good one, the trapezoid stringer is no where near as strong with out some type of core material, putting foam back in there only makes sense. But as far as the rest of the boat? What do you want to achieve? If the hull is holed, Scotty’s foam blocking will keep her from completely filling, and as long as there is no water on the deck to slosh around to make you unstable and flip, your ok. On the other hand if you hit bottom and holed the boat you have other issues and by the way you are on the bottom already so is sinking really an issue...?. If someone hits you at the speed of heat :shock: the only thing that is gonna save you is luck, PDF’s and quick accessibility to the healthcare system, their insurance (if they have it) will take care of the boat :oops: ...
When you replace the deck, you are going to make it water tight (I am sure). Rigging tubes will keep water out if they go from console (helm station) to stern are glued and terminate above deck level.. Another possible entry is an anchor locker drain, again not likely to get submerged unless the bow is underwater for an extended period of time..
So, worrying about keeping the bait, boys and beer (all movable ballast) afloat when swamped has more to do with the skill of the operator, the scupper size to get rid of the deck load of water, then the amount of foam you have.
Adding foam in between the stringers adds nothing to “floatation” of a sound hull other then add weight to the overall rebuild. In the event of a catastrophe of a holed hull the foam will keep out the volume of water it displaces…
Just a few thoughts and if I have stated the obvious, my apologies...
Really nice project too! :salut:
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Stupid question then. Does a water tight compartment then not have the same displacement as a foam filled cavity? Obviously the drawback here would be if it then became not water tight like you were saying.
I just cringe at the thought of clogging up the below decks drainage with foam hence the thought of putting in between the gunwales and the outer hull where drainage is less than an issue.
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All the foam does is hold air... the same as a watertight compartment. Actually less, due to the displacement of air by the material (styrene) itself.
I'm with Dave, if you don't need it, you don't need it. Throw some foam block under the deck after the routing is completed and call it good. Save that time, effort and money for other things....and trust me, there will be a TON of stuff to spend (or as my wife says, waste) extra money on :mrgreen:
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X3
Foam helps these boats only in two ways:
1) it provides a filler for the stringers which makes them stronger than they'd be if they were air filled.
2) it will provide an additional measure of safety and help prevent/slow the rate of sinking ONLY if the airloc of a compartment with the foam isbreached (b/c the closed cell foam prevents the entire chamber from filling with water, therefore preserving some of the buoyancy).
Under normal everyday operating conditions the fact that you do or do not have foam under your deck will NOT come into play, and as Scotty mentioned All the foam does is hold air... the same as a watertight compartment. Actually less, due to the displacement of air by the material (styrene) itself.
it actually is quite a bit heavier than air even when not saturated.
You can achieve the same buoyancy assistance that foam provides by constructing a grid system of sealed compartments under the deck such that if your boat is broadsided and the starboard hull is breached, all of the compartments on the port side the at maintain their integrity will still be airtight and therefore buoyant.
In essence, the more foam in boat the lower it will sit in the water, but the safer it will be in an accident. :eye:
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Well there is this, put as much flotation in as feasible. more life jackets then you need. Stored it out of the way places, add to the flotation. Then use it have fun and just don’t swamp in to find out if it works or not. :twisted: :roll: :thumright:
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Hey saltfly. I may or may not get out there to work on the boat tomorrow but will definitely be out there Thursday and Friday if u are in the area
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Stupid question then. Does a water tight compartment then not have the same displacement as a foam filled cavity?
No such thing here!!!
Displacement is the total volume of water that the 246 will displace at it's design waterline. In that volume (hole in the water) is all the crap you have in the boat, the boat included.. It could be foam or beer, when you put an equal WEIGHT of each in the hull she will sink the same amount..
The displacement volume of an enclosed space does not change regardless of what is inside the space, the object with something in it will however will have a greater mass and sit lower in the water and ironically be less buoyant.. It makes a big difference how much lower it will sit based on the shape.
Hope this helps... :salut:
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Buoyancy is based on the weight of the volume of the medium it displaces. In this case we are talking water (seawater I'm guessing) and designers have to take into account the density of the water. For the most part, a boat that floats in seawater will also float in fresh water. The same design hull will however ride lower in fresh water because of the variance in density between the two. Hull shape does not change and by design, will displace a given weight of fluid. Seawater is denser than fresh so the actual volume displaced changes but the weight remains constant. This is based on forces acting on the surface of the hull pushing it down (gravity) and compression of the water column pushing it up (pressure change at each end).
Hull design is therefore based not only on its weight but all the crap you place inside (as Dave stated). Thus the hull must displace more medium (in this case water) by weight than all your stuff in order to remain afloat. Altering its shape or adding more than its designed displacement weight and you and Davey Jones are shakin' hands. :salut:
Like so many things in science, it's a concept that for me, takes a leap of faith. Then again it could be Neptune's pinky under there holding it afloat. :scratch:
Whatever it takes.
Good luck. :thumleft:
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If I remember correctly seawater weighs 64 lbs per cubic foot. So if you take one cubic foot of something and it weighs less than 64lbs it will float in sea water. For example a plastic one foot cube that weighs 30 lbs will float in sea water since it weighs less than the cubic foot of water is displaces.... in fact it will have 34 lbs of buoyancy.
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/b5af8b2aeb66c2a23576f9c694238519_zps65e82bd7.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/33d0ca05976ba86ccfd1e345d1ac8bc3_zpsdc54d4d7.jpg)
Let's play"who has the most awesome wife ever???!!!!"
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:shock: :shock: :mrgreen: :thumright: :thumleft: !!!!!!!!
Wow, authorized the purchase and then works on it too... :salut: :salut:
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Hard to beat that :thumright:
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/da68e1ebc2e99dd99b533e32fd87075a_zps1e832975.jpg)
What's the deal with the wood core? How far does this go?
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What's the deal with the wood core? How far does this go?
That sucks. :? Sorry, I don't have an answer. I just feel your pain.
Is it wet?
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Port side is dry starboard isn't. I'm not sure it is even structural. I think it may have been cored for I/O purposes
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Port side is dry starboard isn't. I'm not sure it is even structural. I think it may have been cored for I/O purposes
Makes sense although that thin layer doesn't look like it would beef it up much.
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How thick is the glass? If it matches the rest of the stringers I would be tempted to leave it. However, consider the fact that the polyester will also become wet over time. That can lead to a weakened laminate... In my opinion it all depends on your ultimate goal. Option A; You don't plan on keeping the boat and just roll with it. Option B; You don't plan on keeping the boat and you are going to loose some serious coin. Option C; You are going to keep it and you go with A. Or C....back to B.
The other thing to consider is the amount of water the foam has soaked up over time. If you push into it do you get any moisture out of it? If so, well...I think you know what needs to happen. At least your wife helps with the grinding. I wish mine would.
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I have given serious thought to just adding more glass over top to strengthen the stringers and roll with it. Saltfly and I were looking at it this evening and we think it might have to to with the height of the stringer and the lack of contact with the deck. It didnt originally contact it due to the big splashwell? This would cause a chance for deflection of the inner face of the stringer so maybe they cored it to stiffen it up?
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Remember that the stringers are usually made as a complete insert and glassed/glued into the hull.
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Right. ...but what's stopping me from laying glass over the top of them? I guess I don't get where you're going with the above comment?
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What I was thinking is the gaps or lack of contact you mentioned and how the liner is prefabbed and then set in place and may not make 100% contact. I had some gaps where the connecting heavy cloth that connected the stringers didn't lay flat thus not bonding to the hull well.
There is nothing wrong with beefing them up with a layer or two of bi-axial. If you really want strength go with epoxy.
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/cab21099cf17fa5076253416fc86dde9_zps2cf2c942.jpg)
Right where I'm standing is where the splash well started. No foam either. So all the way back to the transom was not in contact with any floor structure. It will be when I'm done though.
Next question. What is everyone's opinion of the floor scuppers that drain via Garden hose to plastic fittings on the outer hull? I feel like this entire set up is cheesy looking and asking for trouble. If either side fails it would allow water into the bilge unnoticed.
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Plastic thu hulls have no business under the waterline... I would change them out and install a seacock just in case you did have an issue. I would take a look here (http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2068), the links in that thread have some very good info. Also the flexible schedule 40 PVC gives me a lot of confidence for below the waterline plumbing.
What Rick was referring to is this:
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//644/liner.jpg)
The red is the stringer system that is set into the hull mold and glued in. You and Salt seem to have a good plan though, tabbing the aft section in should be good to go. Just make sure you grind back to get a solid bond to the hull.
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What is everyone's opinion of the floor scuppers that drain via Garden hose to plastic fittings on the outer hull? I feel like this entire set up is cheesy looking and asking for trouble. If either side fails it would allow water into the bilge unnoticed.
Can only speak for myself.
I liked the design, hated the access. Really haven't read where 80s era CCPs were sinking with alarming rates but then again if you feel uncomfortable in installing thru hull fittings, proper type hose and connections you would be best served with some other type drain.
You're rebuilding your hull so the fear of install doesn't seem to be a problem plus you can incorporate easy access for inspection/repair.
The concept of a displacement cockpit drainage system may only appeal to engineering types and "slope" drainage out the rear is pretty easy to do. Isn't that the type that was on your hull to begin with?
"Cheesy" look :scratch: Maybe we're talking two different concepts here.
Good luck.
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4shore it was good to meet you and see your boat. I got into my CI 21 this morning. It had a I/O. I drilled a few small holes in the stringer were the I/O mounts were bolted to the stringer. Their was a piece of wood on both strigers in the same place you have wood. Same thickness as well. It's not an AS but most boat companies did the same thing in those days. So I think you are right on about it being done to mount a I/O if someone wanted one instead of an outboard.
As for those plastic drain fittings. I replaced the ones in my ccp when I had water in the bilge and couldn’t understand the reason for the amount of water. The one plastic thru hull was cracked on one side and the other side had a split in the hose at the deck drain. So I got a few different fittings from seabob and new renforce hose and replaced the holes system. I never liked plastic if it ends up blow the water line. You can ask seabob where to get the type I got from him. Their so much better then the plastic ones.
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The look of the scuppers is cool it's just the execution of it is cheap looking
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The look of the scuppers is cool it's just the execution of it is cheap looking
Solution
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10197 (http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10197)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o140/jdupree_photos/IMAG0034_zps3e89b044.jpg)
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Enjoyed meeting you and discussing things also! That's what these message boards are all about!
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/e5eddafb472bae124d0d4e93a33d831c_zps28d48ee9.jpg)
This is my prescribed lamination schedule as I see it right now. I am still very much up in the air about core material. Coosa or wood I don't know. Opinions??
I need some real input on this lamination schedule guys. As it sits now this project is gonna consume 15 gal of resin :shock:
My research has found that 1708 and 1808 consume a gallon every 4 yards and CSM is about the same. I am figuring on 12' lengths per lam so I get overlap down the hull sides( hull is 8x4 with a 26x20 cut out)
15 gal sound right for a transom???
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Looks good to me. Maybe a third of that 15 gallon number though...
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You got any calculations to back that cause the ones that were provided me say 15 gallons. I wold like to be wrong on this obviously?!
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Each of those layers should take around half a gallon to wet out. Probably add another gallon for thickened glue and fillets. 5 gonna be close...
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/93314f6a0564e7d7d5b0f4cfed60b7b8_zps35b20029.jpg)
Progress.....
Grinding and grinding and more grinding.....
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Ok apparently photobucket has decided it doesn't like me anymore. Any suggestions on a different program?
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Looks like you've exceeded your free storage. Time to delete some non-boating pics. :P
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Nope not working
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I have 246 pics on photobucket - Let's see if they still like me....
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/rkins/AnnieOnBoat.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/rkins/media/AnnieOnBoat.jpg.html)
Edit: So you must have a ton of pics there?
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No I only have like 20 pics. I think it has something to do with the fact that I'm accessing it thru an iPad app.
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Going to pick up my transom plywood today. Decided to go with 2 sheets of 3/4 okoume instead of coosa. Just didn't see spending the extra when it doesn't offer the strength that ply does.
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Sweet! Another wood guy. As long as you over-drill and fill I don't think you should ever have issues. It is just a matter of keeping the water out.
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Man I tell ya for any of you that haven't handled this okoume it is some pretty impressive material! Extremely strong and surprisingly light for 3/4 ply.
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Apparently I am only allowed 10 G of memory transfer per month with the free sign up. I am taking them with an Ipad so maybe I need to look for another photo host. Any suggestions?
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I use an app called "snapbucket" on my iphone. Just take a pic and the app sends it right to photobucket. Not sure how many you can do or anything though...
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PB resizes the pics down to 1024x768 automatically so the transfer size should be down. :scratch:
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Well come nov 1 the pics will be back. Doesn't really matter right now as I am smack in the middle of the great grind-a-thon!
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Ok so I have a question. My transom has a bit of a crown to it, meaning it bows out a little at the point where the motor mounts. I am guessing that this is the way it should be since I have the boat blocked and stands under it it isn't oil canning. I have two layers of 3/4 okoume to lam in to it and I don't want to squeeze the crown out of it.
Will the okoume conform to it?
Will there be too much pressure from the okoume wanting to spring back to flat that it may cause a delamination?
Can I kerf cut these sheets to allow them to bend without weakening the boards?
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Kerfing the ply will work, just don't go too deep.
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ok so then the obvious follow up question here is how deep is too deep?
I would think that after kerfing the ply wood that you would then squeeze thickened resin into the kerfs to add strength?
I am planning on kerfing it on the inside so as I clamp in the ply the excess thickened resin should squeeze out and I can remove the excess.
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Before you cut anything do a dry fit and clamp the tar out of it.. You may find that the ply conforms to the camber of the stern. Once you do a kerf bend you will lose the strength of the ply core. The kerfs can be filled with goop but then the strength only lies in the glue strength of that but joint..
That ply should flex enough to allow for a 1/2 to 3/4 bend in the 7 feet or so you have to go. If you glue it flat on the floor of the garage, you will have to come up with a plan for filler, that isn't the end of the world either..
You can also make a steeler piece to build out ply and fill the gap.. Be a bunch of fairing and filling but it is also an option..
To many options.
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Before you cut anything do a dry fit and clamp the tar out of it.. You may find that the ply conforms to the camber of the stern. Once you do a kerf bend you will lose the strength of the ply core.
I agree 100% :!: Do not kerf cut a transom core :!: Okoume bends pretty well anyway. If need be make a jig to match the curvature of your transom and glue your core together on that. Filling the kerf cuts won't really do much for the strength unless you are using epoxy, but either way i would advise against the kerf cuts.
Good luck. :salut:
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My plan is to create a profile stencil with Popsicle sticks across the outer skin. Then translate that to a 2x4. That 2x4 will then get holes drilled thru it and I will run my threaded studs thru them and then thru the transom and then the core will be clamped in on those studs.
I guess in essence what I'm doing is profiling the jaws of my clamp to fit the crown of the transom
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If you can 4, you would be better off making a pattern from a rough cut piece of scrap held perpendicular to the transom face the tracing the shape with a compass. If you don't have enough hands, your glossing it up anyway so you could screw the scrap to some temp bracing.. It might go a little faster then making a pattern with Popsicle sticks, although that is a kicka$$ idea..
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My plan is to create a profile stencil with Popsicle sticks across the outer skin. Then translate that to a 2x4. That 2x4 will then get holes drilled thru it and I will run my threaded studs thru them and then thru the transom and then the core will be clamped in on those studs.
I guess in essence what I'm doing is profiling the jaws of my clamp to fit the crown of the transom
Sounds good to me. Id take it a step further and use some 2x8 material then just cut your curve down the middle of that. that way your clamping boards on both inside and out have the same curve. Like Dave said do a dry run first...
)!!) )=clamping board !=core
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Yeah I was thinking of using a 2x8 but I was afraid that it would be unstable due to the the sideways T shape it would make when u put a 2x4 behind it and clamped it down.
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You could notch the 2x8s and make a solid grid structure. Thats kind of what I had in mind for a jig, maybe overkill but is sure would work.
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I was thinking the same thing with notching in vertical supports
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What about doing 3 sheets of 1/2 inch with chopped strand in between each layer? That kind of sandwich would take any shape. I would think if you did one layer first so it would offer the least resistance to the bend, let that set up then do the other two together or one by one. With the glass in between that transom would be crazy strong. I remember pulling my transom. The wood was wet but there was a layer between the sheets that made it much more difficult to remove. Or, as we discussed, you can pour a transom which will take any shape
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Unfortunately I have already purchased my okoume 3/4 and the supplier is almost 2 hours away.
I think I can make the 3/4 bend if I do it one layer at a time though.
Yeah I am definitely doing a layer of CSM between the two cores just to soak up any imperfections or gaps between the two surfaces.
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Sorry for the delay in additional posts guys. So far I have completed all necessary grinding on the hull, profiled my clamps to fit the curve of the transom, cut the transom core out, test fit it, and prepped it for install.
Let me tell any of you that are questioning this 3/4 okoume, this stuff is solid iron!! Just to get it to conform I had to back my clamps with an additional 2x4 and a section of steel hat channel, otherwise the clamps themselves would deflect!
koz and I had spoken in the past about the amount of deflection the center of the transom had from the sides and I agreed with him that it was close to 2 inches. I have gotten 1.5" of deflection out of it and I think that will be ok.
I ended up doing about 6 vertical kerfs in it to relieve what I thought was too much pressure. I was concerned that two layers of this wood clamped into this bow would cause an ever present pulling affect on the lamination and eventually cause a failure. The only other option was putting the core in in sections which I decided not to do.
Next step is to hot coat the transom core prior to install. I am going to thin my resin with styrene for this to promote absorption. I believe the dilution rate was 10% per volume and my hardener was 1%-2% per volume. Here's the question, 1% pre thinned or 1% post thinned?
By the way thanks again to Saltfly for his thoughts and suggestions!!!
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Ok first layer of core is buttered up and clamped in. Sorry I have been lazy with the pic's. I will try to take some soon. The Kerfing did the trick! core still seems quite strong and laid in without any drama. I will offset the kerfs on the second piece so they don't line up.
I can tell you that this vinylester resin gave me a heart attack when I first started using it. It has a very distinct color change from pinkish to green/blue. Color change I'm used to but this stuff didn't change color until about 10 min after catalyzing it! I thought the stuff was hardening too soon! Everything went well though and we had about 45 minutes of pot time at 70*F.
Two questions.
How long should I leave it clamped?
Do I tab the first layer into the hull and then lay the second layer in and tab again or do I just laminate the two cores and then tab?
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in my amateur opinion, and if it were me, I would add a layer of 1.5 oz chopped strand between the two plywood sheets, laminate the two cores together, then tab when its all done and set. I would want as little between those two sheets as possible and I wouldnt want the forces of the tabs pulling differently on the seperate sheets. The 3/4 chopped strand is basically to hold more resin in place to fill any voids or micro imperfections that may not mate the two sheets perfectly together.
As for drying/clamped/set time, as always it depends on tepmerature and humidity. I think 3 days in 60+ degrees is safe. It could be as short as 24 hours but maybe others will chime in on that.
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Koz you and I are like minded across the board on this one. I think the core should be tabbed in as a unit.
Thanks for the reply on the pm. I am still trying to figure out what I want to do with that dead space behind the tank coffin. I really like what u did with yours. If you can shoot me the photos/ info on those molds I will be sure to get you my photos/info on my transom
I thought you were gonna do a SeaCast poured transom?
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I would tab in at each layer. All so fill between the akoma on the transom and the gunnels. Any air gap will allow condensation to build up in the air pockets. Just my thoughts. :thumleft:
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SaltFly,
I have filleted the edges all the way around and laid thickened resin down between each layer with a 3/8" notched trowel. This should be sufficient I would think. Opinions?
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Koz you and I are like minded across the board on this one. I think the core should be tabbed in as a unit.
Thanks for the reply on the pm. I am still trying to figure out what I want to do with that dead space behind the tank coffin. I really like what u did with yours. If you can shoot me the photos/ info on those molds I will be sure to get you my photos/info on my transom
I thought you were gonna do a SeaCast poured transom?
I'll get you a more detailed play by play for the molds in the next few days. And yes, I am definitely going pourable transom for many reasons.
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Ok let me try to do a photo update here since I've been slacking n that department
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image99.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8460&title=image99&cat=500)
Cutting the stringer back on both sides about 2'
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image98.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8459&title=image98&cat=500)
Transom torn out. The CSM that you see on the port side was ground out after the photo.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image91.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8452&title=image91&cat=500)
Used Popsicle sticks bought from the local craft store and hot glued them together to get a profile of the inside of the transom. Then used this profile to trace out that shape to a piece of 1/4" door skin. We will use this door skin throughout the transom project to cut out the 3 core pieces, the tabbing,and the full sheets of glass .
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image90.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8451&title=image90&cat=500)
This is the door skin template cutout and installed to test fit it and drill the holes for the all thread that will be used to clamp down the transom.
The small wooden blocks were hot glued across the transom to then hot glue Popsicle sticks across them to pick up the curve of the transom. That curve was then transcribed to the clamps so when we tighten it down it would retain that curve
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image101.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8462&title=image101&cat=500)
Wife grinding and digging out the old transom. Choose your women wisely fellas!!!!!
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image96.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8457&title=image96&cat=500)
Motor cutout done on template. Ended up being around 3' wide. This should be wide enough to facilitate hydraulic steering.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image97.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8458&title=image97&cat=500)
Inside clamping
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A picture is worth a 1000 words.... Now I understand how you used the Popsicle sticks to create a pattern.. Similar idea, a tad more creative, but the end result is the same.. From the looks of it the fit turned out relly well! :thumright:
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image95.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8456&title=image95&cat=500)
Outside clamping. That is not an optical illusion. That 3/4" okoume is so damn stiff it was deflecting a clamp that was made up of two 2x4's and an 8' long section of steel hat channel!!
Needless to say I felt that with that type of pressure kerfing the core was a necessity.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image92.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8453&title=image92&cat=500)
Cores cut out then round the edges and hot coat with thinned resin
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image94.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8455&title=image94&cat=500)
First layer of okoume pressed in and then waited a few days and released the clamps.
The stray white fibers you see are not sections of poorly wetted out glass they are just stray fibers that found their way onto the core.
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(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/image93.jpg) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8454&title=image93&cat=500)
Filleting done and then laid in the tabbing while it was still wet to avoid bubbles. Also used some of the thickened resin left over to smooth out low areas in the kerfs so now they are completely filled.
Question for the crew... Where I removed the wood core where the cap and hull are bolted together I did not put wood back I just filled it with thickened resin. Should this be a problem?
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alright guys this winter just doesn't seem to want to go away but I'm starting the glassing back up slowly but surely! Recoring hatch covers now and then I guess I'm kinda stuck until the weather warms enough to finish the transom.
Question. Once I finish the transom and I am ready to reinstall the cut sections of stringer I am going to add transom knees. How far up should I install them? How many layers of 1708 are sufficient after they are tabbed in? I will more than likely use scrap okoume from my transom to mock up the coring of the knees and then fill with foam when I re foam the pre existing stringers.
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Bueller
Bueller?
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Looking good Dave.
:thumleft:
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Nothing wrong with running the knees up as high as you can without having them cause interference with engine/bracket mounts.. Are you leaving the ply in or just using it as a form? As far as thickness goes, if what is in the boat has 1/8 inch in it, go back with at least that, and that would be at least 3 layers of the 1708.. Craig, Ryan or Rick will have a better idea because they are/have built Brick Outhouse style stringers.. Rick posted his schedule if you look back through his thread..
Really nice progress! :salut:
Bueler's not here, he took the day off!! :mrgreen:
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yes I intend on building the knee out of ply then hot coating and then glassing over. I gave thought to building the box as a mold and popping a glass form out of it also.
Pros / cons?
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Pro's to making a mold? No wood in finished product to worry about. Con's? - See Pro's. :D
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/daa7b767e84ef926ab077b38ff10e458_zpse01a13b4.jpg)
Recored the hatch cover forward of the fuel tank. I have a fresh water tank i will install there
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/ba80befc9f8f71297cb87bdc5e4257d0_zpse6f545e6.jpg)
75 gal fuel tank, I've since coated it with coal tar epoxy. There is about a foot of excess space in the coffin. Is it worth shortening the coffin to gain more space for a third below deck storage area behind it?
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/3c7c5e2deaa678e5c84d961f41c0aa3f_zps9b630553.jpg)
Third layer of ply laminated and clamped into transom. The wife is proud of her work!!
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/92f67f8aa158d93e344474192823ea41_zps7c5cf70e.jpg)
Ok here is where i need help! I have laminated 3 layers of ply. 2 18mm sheets of okoume and one 1/2 sheet. I'm at roughly 2 1/4" before glass. Is this enough core? How thick should i build my glass layer?
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/92f67f8aa158d93e344474192823ea41_zps7c5cf70e.jpg)
Ok here is where i need help! I have laminated 3 layers of ply. 2 18mm sheets of okoume and one 1/2 sheet. I'm at roughly 2 1/4" before glass. Is this enough core? How thick should i build my glass layer?
Plenty of core... Inside skin or outside?
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Im going to glass it back in from the inside and add knees up about 25" on the transom. My plan is to use alternating layers of 1708(45*) and 1808(90*) to get that biaxial effect. Should i build to 1/4" or maybe 1/2"? I know that each layer of laminated glass is about 1/16". I plan on hanging a 200-250 hp motor on it
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Dav I think your core thickness is fine. I personally like to add a1/4 inch of glass over that, giving you 2 1/2 inchs. You can hange any motor on that. Just my opinon.
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Great squeezeout! Looks like you used some of those shapes off my transom, looks really nice!
(http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/data//500/Fishing_Orange_Beach_Sept_2013_012.JPG) (http://www.classicaquasport.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=9380&title=fishing-orange-beach-sept-2013-012&cat=500)
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Yeah id say its almost a direct copy of yours, just scaled up to 246 size.
Couple questions
I have about 19 1/2" holes in the transom from the clamping process. They are more or less horizontal. What is the best process to seal theses off? My thought was dish them out with a grinder, seal with thinned resin, fill hole with thickened resin and then build back up with csm.
Lamination schedule of tabbing. I was thinking three tabs. 6", 8", 12" and then laminate the entire thing.
Top cap. The original top cap of the transom is gone. The sides of the transom are covered by the liner but how do i reproduce the squared edge at the top of the transom?
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Your filling the holes sounds like the right way. I would think to reproduce the top area of the transom either pile really thickened resin and grind it to the correct shape. Some fairing compound and paint. Or, you could lam a piece of ply on top and grind it to the correct shape then fairing compound then paint.
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Uh oh i may have a problem here! I am grinding down bevels around where i had thru bolted my clamps and i am finding sections where the outside skin has not adhered. What do i do?
Do i finish tabbing the core in from the inside and then completely remove the outside skin?
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/35465afea9a64a1ebcdb847c7d22133e_zps84f9a801.jpg)
Ok so i ended up just cutting the outer skin off 6" up from the bottom. Everywhere i had run a bolt thru and tightened it down it pressed the resin out of the joint. The only thing i can figure is that because the skin flexed more than the wood i pulled it too tight and the joint didnt have enough resin. The 3 layers of wood show no signs of delamination. I guess I will start laying up glass from the outside to build back up and then continue on the inside after that.
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It looks to me like you did the right thing, you definitely don't want voids in there. What's the plan now? Will you grind off the rest of the gel and finish the transom with new glass?
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Yeah i think i will gring the gel off, build up the beveled areas and then lay glass until its even with the existing skin. Any guess as to how many layers of 1708 this will take? Im thinking 4.
Will it build too much heat to lay 4 layers at once?
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Count on 1/16" per layer, well at least that's what I count on. I think the transom skin should be around 1/8" plus whatever you added to it when you put the core in.
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So how many layers can I apply to a vertical surface like this without having it slip or causing the layers to over heat?
Won't excessive heat cause shrinkage or poor lamination?
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I really doubt you will have enough thickness there to have the resin exotherm on you. That is pretty much something that only happens when it is left in the pot for too long and is a few inches deep. I would suggest you lam the fillers pieces in, and then (wet on wet) lam your full transom pieces on. Hold them in place (keep them from sagging) with spring clamps. Just use some packing tape to keep the resin from sticking to the clamps.
If you want to get crazy about it you can cut the full transom pieces long and wrap them around the sides and secure them with a quality tape. I don't not recommend applying resin anywhere on the sides because you will have to grind and fair the sides back in, which isn't easy.
Also, one more suggestion is to wet out your glass on a table and take your saturated glass to the boat instead of trying to wet it out vertically. Just trace out were you need to stop the resin if you are going wrap the glass around the sides and use tape.
It will be much easier, I promise. :wink:
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So to be clear....
Would you build the new skin on the exposed wood up and then lay new 1708 across the wholes transom or would you just fill the small recessed areas with patches and then lay new full sheets across the entire stern?
I would think the second option would cause the areas with existing skin to be thicker than the center and I'd have to lay up some CSM to level it out.
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I'd do both - Once you knock the old gelcoat off, fill in the isolated lows, and add a heavy layer of glass on the new exposed wood you should be pretty close to level. Then a layer of mat over the whole transom, sand the hell out of it, then fill the remaining low spots with fairing compound as long as they're not too deep.
Whatever you do try and get the area where the outboards mount nice & flat.
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Ground down all the gel coat and beveled the existing skin out the the edge. Got my glass cut for my isolated low areas and will be cutting the glass for the large areas today after work. Gonna wait on the glassing til i get some warmer weather...
I would like to try using a paint roller to pre wet the resin. What type of roller covers can i use? I picked up some mohair rollers from lowes with a synthetic core but they are $5 a piece! Any cheaper options?
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/8064b280db925d74cdb88c66bc1893f9_zps1f798320.jpg)
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I'm sorry I missed your earlier post. If you are using epoxy, just use cheap wally world foam roller covers. However, keep in mind poly will melt them, so that isn't an option. Personally I would use a squeegee and wet the pieces out on a horizontal surface (unless you are using CSM, which will just shred during when you go to pick it up), I would use 1708/1808 for a quick build up.
As far as the layup goes, if you can't match the thickness of the existing skin, build it up so that your "patches" sit proud, then go over the whole transom. It is easier and more sound to grind down the high spots (from the patched areas) as opposed to filling low spots. Especially since you are hanging the motor there... I would rather have more glass and less fairing compound back there.
Good Luck!
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Get the cheap 3/8" green rollers from the big box stores (6/$5). Roll resin on the table, lay the cloth into it, roll some more on the front and then use a hard roller to roll it in. Just need a big table or sheet of plywood to work that much cloth.
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I'm using 1708 and 1808 together to pick up the extra strength from the different axials (45 for 1708 and 90 for 1808). The patches are from where i had beveled and filled the bolt holes that had all thread thru them to clamp the ply in. It may be hard to see but I have two patches in each area to feather it out. I will add more as needed.
So the 3/8 nap rollers wont dissolve or gum up? What type of squeegie are we talking about here?
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Just the plastic ones that are usually used for applying bondo.
(http://www.shopmaninc.com/Images/squeege3.jpg)
I like them because it is easier and faster to work the resin into the cloth.
This doesn't really show everything because it is a time lapse, but you should get the idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-2eUZ4qQps
Again (my usual disclaimer), this is the way I like to do things and that doesn't mean it is the only way, it's just "my" way.
Here is some more on "my" methods... The wetting out part starts about 3/4 of the way down.
http://www.classicaquasport.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10014&start=75
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the thin cheap plastic cutting boards work pretty good too, & you can cut them into any shape you want.
put a nice radius on them for fillets too.
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Looks to me like youre using epoxy. Will those squeegies work for vinylester?
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Yes they will. I thought you were using epoxy for some reason... I don't know what kind of times you have been getting until it starts to kick, you will have to make a judgment call as to whether or not you will have enough time to wet it out and get it in place before it kicks. Just remember that if you chill your resin you will get more working time and the faster you get it thinned out (out of the pot) the longer you have also.
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Been getting about 45 min if i kick at 2% i would imagine a little longer today if its stays cool. Any concerns with using vinylester below 70 deg?
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I would think that you would be okay. I would consider the temps being to your advantage.
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Just checking to see how you are coming along with the glass...
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Hey thanks for checking up! I have been building up the isolated low spots as time allows. It has taken two layers of 1708 and i have a couple spots that will need one more layer and then I will be ready to lay the big sheets.
I have had varying opinions on how to do this from sources i respect for their knowledge.
1. Start small with the area that the skin was removed and continue to overlap until the entire transom is covered
2. Start with the largest piece and work back to the smallest to create a taper and then fill the taper
3. Build up the removed section only, bevel it where it meets the old, tape and fill that and then cover the whole transom with 1.5 oz csm and fair.
One more thing. I have about two gal of vinyl ester left and then i have to get more. My supplier is 2 hours away in norfolk. Is two gal enough to get this outside skin done?
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One more thing. I have about two gal of vinyl ester left and then i have to get more. My supplier is 2 hours away in norfolk. Is two gal enough to get this outside skin done?
You will have to figure out what you total amount of glass is going to weigh and that is how many of ounces of resin you will need, plus about 15% or so for waste.
Personally, I would do the lamination in the order of #1., but it can be done whatever way you want to do it I guess.
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It's a 1:1 ratio?
that seems too easy!
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Yup, sure is... The ideal lamination is 50% glass, 50% resin.
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use the cheap roller covers from box store like Rick said. I don't use the foam ones use the hair ones they don't melt or fall apart. 70 should be fine but pay more attention to how cold it's going to get at night. If its going to get 60 or colder get some visqeen and drape it over the area your working and place a halogen work light in there to keep the temp up. I have done this plenty of times this spring with the yo-yo temps.
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In preparation for some big layups im doing i was checking over some smaller patches on the transom that i had laid to even it up and noticed small pin head sized bubbles in some spots. i guess it off gassed on me when i wasnt watching. They are kinda dispersed thru the patch area, no big collections in one spot. I wouldn't think it would be a big problem right?
Any tips for reducing these off gas bubbles when doing large laminations? I'm getting ready to lay down 2 layers of 1708 and 2 of 1808 on the transom tomorrow.
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In preparation for some big layups im doing i was checking over some smaller patches on the transom that i had laid to even it up and noticed small pin head sized bubbles in some spots. i guess it off gassed on me when i wasnt watching. They are kinda dispersed thru the patch area, no big collections in one spot. I wouldn't think it would be a big problem right?
Any tips for reducing these off gas bubbles when doing large laminations? I'm getting ready to lay down 2 layers of 1708 and 2 of 1808 on the transom tomorrow.
After I do my layup using a roller I come back with a roller with a bristle brush on it. It helps to release all the bubbles through the wet out glass. You can pick one up at a fiberglass supply store. It works like a charm and really speeds the layup process.
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U do this between layers or after youve layed it all?
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U do this between layers or after youve layed it all?
At each layer of glass.
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Late in.. Option 2, big to small, on a patch lay up will be less likely to give you trouble with air pockets at the edges of the glass patches, I found that out the hard way. Fairing small patches like that is also easier with a sharp cabinet scraper.
Off gassing can be slowed down if you get the sub straight you're glassing to as warm as it is going to get before you lay the glass down. If you glass in the morning prior to the part heating up you will have considerably more chance for entrained air expanding and causing bubbles then if you waited until the day started to cool down.. A wood skiff builder down south (Robb White) was known for heating his shop to over 100 and letting it sit for a while then laying down epoxy as the shop cooled down. He swore that the process produced better penetration and adhesion..
Used gift cards (iTunes etc.) make great scrapers/spreaders as well..
Good luck!
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The patching has been completed and I did notice some bubbling on the edges for sure. Ground them out when I faired the patches into the existing substrate. The next step is 4 layers. 2 that are the size of the skin I removed (1 layer 1708, 1 layer 1808) and then 2 layers that stretch the width of the transom ( same fabrics) I'm pretty sure this will be more than strong enough for the outside skin. Wouldn't you? Would you still go big to small on laminations of this size?
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That will be plenty strong unless you over HP the boat but that is another discussion.. Yes I would go big to small wedding cake style on the lam..
Reasoning: The strength of the lam is the system as a unit. The resin is strong as Heculies but very brittle. The uncut glass fiber is fuggetaboutit strong and together,well, you get the picture. So, to make us all happy when the goop has cured, we instantly whip out a destructive device (sander) and start destroying (fairing) that psycho strong unit you just created. So, why take off the biggest load dispersing layer first? Never made sense to me.
Now, all that egghead stuff aside, there are probably an equal number of guys with supporting arguments that will swear to you it doesn't matter. Around the shore up here, guys have been using the wedding cake technique for as long as they have had glass to use it with for strength and ease of faring..
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http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx11 ... 30c26e.jpg (http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/4776f99e4926c0d568f9b01ecb599095_zps8a30c26e.jpg)
Alright i have run into a bit of a problem. I tried to lay up the first layer of 1808 "wedding cake" style and i was trying to lay wet on wet. Well the 1808 started drying on me prematurely. I did the best i could to get it laid down but have probably 15-20 bubbles to grind out. What happened?
I used vinylester at 1.5% catalyst. Rolled it out with a roller and it hardened waaay fast. I used a paint tray to hold the resin. Maybe just pour the whole thing out instead of a tray?
Should i be worried about the entire layer not holding or delaminating?
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(http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/86aqua/f0b074a5-4b88-4a00-9f8b-2575136c724a_zps40ce6cad.jpg) (http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/86aqua/media/f0b074a5-4b88-4a00-9f8b-2575136c724a_zps40ce6cad.jpg.html)
I resized it and posted it to help
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Update: sorry haven't taken a pic yet but i ground out all the bubbles(ended up removing about 30-40% of the new glass. The rest of it seemed pretty strong. Laid patches down and ground the seams even,scuffed the rest. Everything looks pretty strong and we are moving forward with the lay up. We plan to do this work in the evenings because we are in direct sunlight in the afternoon. We are also using bondo squeegies now and that made a HUGE difference.
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Ok sorry for the delay in posting. I have gotten the transom back on track and have laid a layer 0f 1808 and 1708. I will need to lay some CSM across it in spots to get it roughly leveled out but for the most part the outer glass is done. Running out of Vinyl so will have to make a 2 hour trip south to buy more soon. I can get poly locally so I think I will use that to repair the soft fuel tank hatch cover.
I need to make some "L" shaped boxes for seating/cooler and I am thinking about making them with the stich and glue method.
Any opinions or tips for doing this?
Also I was planning on keeping this boat relatively open but have been recently toying with the idea of building a sport cabin (think maycraft/parker style) with the roof extending back a bit.
Opinions? Photos of 246's with this seem to be rare.
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Oh yeah one other thing. I need some opinions on what thickening agent to use for fairing compound? I use Aero -sil for my fillets but have been told its too hard for sanding and such.
Can I use poly for this to save a bit of $?
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Re the cabin:
Those Parker style cabins are cool, lot of space and headroom. C Hawk out of Bailey, NC makes one too if you want to check it out. Heck, they'd probably sell you the part/door/windows etc.
Neat thing about a cabin, you can put an A/C/heater inside. Sit in there and watch the game until the fish hits :mrgreen:
One thing to consider if you go that route....forward weight. You're probably going to want to move the tank back somewhat to compensate. Don't want the bow to dig if you can help it.
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I need to make some "L" shaped boxes for seating/cooler and I am thinking about making them with the stich and glue method. Any opinions or tips for doing this?
S&G would be a slick fast way of putting together the box sides. I have gone over it since last night and I can not come up with enough negatives to rule it out.. (I have built both skiffs and kayaks that way so I am a tad biased).. I would recommend spot ties/zip tie/tie wraps instead of copper wire because it will so less damage to shaping tool edges.
I am a fan of Aerosil, it is a great filler (thixotropic agent if you wanna be a dork about it) and fairs easily. Ease of sanding is a relative..
For cleaning up runs/sags a sharp cabinet scraper can not be beat. An old hand saw blade can be cut up then resharpened to fit any shape/radius and the speed at which you can clean stuff up is startling.
For small areas "on the flat" a home built tool of stacked hacksaw blades with the teeth not all lined up is a vicious little bugger that cuts really fast. Think little Sure Form tool that you can custom make for your application. If you have access to a small welder the sky is the limit on the shapes and sizes you can make and the blades don't have to be the good ones either..
:salut:
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I was speaking to a fella at a supply house who told me that you absolutely cannot laminate wood substrates together with anything but epoxy. What say u?
As far as stitch and glue goes i think i will move forward with that to build the boxes. 1/2" all the way around or can i save weight and money and go with a door skin type material for the sides? I was on a friend of mine's maycrqft and i noticed that their similar structures are made with no wood at all, just chop gunned mat.
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Door skin is fine for a form but has no strength so you will be doing multiple layers of glass to get some rigidity, something like 2 on the outside and one inside of the box. If you are going to use it as storage space I would go 2 layers each side with the corners filleted and taped inside and radiused and that should be fine.
As far as epoxy being the only thing to bond layers together, that is flat not true. It might be the best and strongest, but on new installation both poly and vynal ester as well as resorcinol have been used for years. If you have epoxy, that will give the best result but there are other options.
Good luck!
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/th_5b7212c4cdf82d02d202c6fd7bd90799_zps5f47706f.jpg) (http://s747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/?action=view¤t=5b7212c4cdf82d02d202c6fd7bd90799_zps5f47706f.jpg)
Started building my stitch and glue fish boxes and quickly realized that the L shape would cause the seat to be too high even if i used a flush mount instead of a pedestal. So i'm going with a straight box. 48"L x 20" w x 18"H
Anybody know how to resize these from photobucket so i don't have to post thumbnails?
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Have you ever taken a pic on your camera or phone and when you viewed it on something else (like a PC) you had to rotate it somehow to see it in the right orientation? I didn't realize the orientation of the pics I took with my phone when I just held my phone vertically to take the the pics, for a little while. Then I started remembering to turn the phone. A dedicated camera is easy, it's in the WxH orientation when you hold it horizontally. You know you are going "portrait" when turn the camera 90 degrees.
Most forums have a width by height setting for pics, not height by width settings. Most are 640Wx480H, not 480Wx640H. Some are larger but usually a WxH thing.
Photobucket has a 1024x768 orientation limit in any direction so when you rotate the pic and upload it they still size it to their limits even if the pic is "portrait" (HxW). (yours are 768Wx1024H). Most forums are still "landscape" oriented (WxH)
I reset our remote link settings to 1100x1100 so we can show your pics. Try posting the original pics again. (Edit your post and remove the "thumb/") and they will appear ok)
Keep this in mind as you are taking pics in the future. If you look at the pics you posted, there is a lot above the "subject" that you really don't need, so a "Landscape" pic might have been better.
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/238b59da07d3c89c23c4a72d093943a1_zps847344ba.jpg)
Putting together panels
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/4dc675a513ea5e98a36e68b4dc07dcb3_zps160d696b.jpg)
All stitched together and test fitting port pedestal seat. The corners will be foam and then be glassed over. Door will open towards port when cut
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/e6bb9f6697a46632da0a033a12ae5dbe_zpsa9677c21.jpg)
Box will slide forward about 10" once i get the damn bolts out of the old pedestal, broke a bit and never budged one.
Will the foam boards from lowes melt when resin is applied?
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If it is blue foam and you use epoxy, no.. Poly/vynal needs special stuff and I don't recall the name of the stuff OTTOMH.. Construction foam is often faced with plastic that nothing adheres to so if that is what you are going to use, make sure you skin the plastic off..
:thumright:
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I think im going to try to find urethane board that they use for roofing. I believe those are compatible with vinyl resin? If not foam then what would be best for the corners? Don't think im gonna get ply to bend that much.
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If you have any of that 2lb pour in foam left over or know someone, make a small mold, then shape to fit. You can glass over that and make it how you want shape wise.
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I'm late to the party on this one, but I'm going to throw my two cents in anyway. First of all, those boxes are going to look sweet! Secondly, I think you would have been wise to kerf cut the plywood and steam bend it around the corners. My logic for this is to avoid the pressure points on the corners (where there will be no wood). Of course this can be compensated for by increasing the skin thickness in those areas....
Either way it looks good.
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/8a47caed7c048d41c20396c67396cc91_zps37592f0e.jpg)
Cut the corners off of a 2x4 and mixed up some thickened resin and glued these cleats in. Tabbed them in with 1.5 oz csm. Unbelievable how much that stiffens it.
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/d419727b97f5ede4ebe979324078a37f_zps4e5eecef.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/ba4f91c70dbfb2de601945c6108a58ce_zps29cb1a5b.jpg)
Built the second box today. Still gotta figure out my seat heights and all but thats the general idea. What do you guys think? By my figures i will have 32 cu ft of cold storage when its all done.
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Looking good :thumright: . If I may make one comment/suggestion...I just got back in from fishing a 2-day tournament on my buddy's Wellcraft 270 Coastal. He has seats/storage areas that are somewhat similar to what you are making, including the gap between the box and the liner. Over the course of 2 days, several things fell into that gap. Not the end of the world, but some of the things were a bit of a pain in the arse to get out. If you can figure out a way to seal the gap, I think you will save yourself a bit of a hassle.
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Yeah i thought about that. I think what i will do is lay some plastic on a sheet of ply and lay down a few layers of 1708 and cut out a flange to cover the gap.
I think I'm gonna use pvc pipe to cover the corners
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After further review I decided not to use PVC pipe. I found a sheet of plastic that is a bit thinner than those floppy cutting boards and I'm gonna bend that around the corner, wax it and then lay some 1208 over it. Should work like a mold. Then I can glue the glass into the corner and glass over it. Got the second box all tabbed in with the wood cleats last night. I will try to take some pics after tonight's work
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/1af574e1c397c55a78e54b42442e6246_zpsc6a279c1.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/09bb768e53ecdf1f51b5cba802de9edb_zps806a7ad4.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/35693790a5461ad74b02dac73e848e42_zps937f3644.jpg)
Had the wife with me today. We stapled that plastic sheet in place and laid some 1208 over it after waxing. I will glue them into place and lay a few more layers over it to stiffen it up.
I also drew out the door that will be cut out. The edge is 2" wide. It will be backed up with some ply and glassed in to support the door.
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/fb01bb891708b8def9e9c8d56ef448fd_zps43d19c90.jpg)
Popped them off the mold and they turned out pretty good, little bit of color transfer from the plastic but it should scuff out.
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Sorry for not checking in lately. Been busy with summer stuff. I cut the holes in the top of the ice boxes and glassed in a 18 mm thick chunk of okoume for a backer for the pedestal seats. Next step is filetting the corners and laying in some tabbing.
I am thinking of laying in some csm on the entire interior and then gluing in my insulation, then glass over that. Overkll?
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The boxes are coming along fine. I have to admit I am a little lost on what you're trying to do though.
Is the wood permanent or is it part of a mold? If it's a mold, is the outside the mold or the inside?
I see that you built a box and put stiffeners and supports inside, so I'm thinking the outside is the mold and you'll lam csm and mat on the outside. Now you're talking about adding glass and insulation to the inside so I'm lost again. Hopefully you can steer my thinking in the right direction.
Sorry for the confusion.
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Rick, I am fairly certain that the wood will be the coring for the boxes.
Shore, How did the transom come out?
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The wood is permanent. I know some on here are going to think that is a poor idea and the wood will rot but I guess we will see. I will hot coat all of the surfaces and the outside will get biax at the seams and at a minimum csm all over. On the inside i want to add urethane foam panels for insulation but i am up in the air as to whether or not to lay glass on the wood and then foam or foam directly to the wood and then glass over.
My instinct is that even after hot coating the wood thats probably not enough moisture protection and the foam isn't designed to be a moisture barrier
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Hey Cally, thanks for checking in. I had a bit of a setback with the transom not adhering correctly to the outer skin. I believe i didn't properly clamp it so i had to cut a bunch of it out and rebuild the outer skin. 1708x2 +1808. So the outer is done all i have to do is tab in the inside and do my lamination across the transom on the inside. Then i will be adding knees. I ran out of vinyl and had some poly laying around so i built these boxes.
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The wood is permanent. I know some on here are going to think that is a poor idea and the wood will rot but I guess we will see. I will hot coat all of the surfaces and the outside will get biax at the seams and at a minimum csm all over. On the inside i want to add urethane foam panels for insulation but i am up in the air as to whether or not to lay glass on the wood and then foam or foam directly to the wood and then glass over.
My instinct is that even after hot coating the wood thats probably not enough moisture protection and the foam isn't designed to be a moisture barrier
Ahhh, I see. I don't think you'll get any nay sayers here as to what you use. Wood has and is still being used in boats everyday. As long as it is prepped/sealed properly it'll last decades. We have rebuilds going on right now here that are using all kinds of different substrates.
I was going to go 5/8" ply for my sole but changed tracks at the 11th hour. My console is mostly wood and my transom is wood.
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We have one small triangular piece of plywood in ours. It is embedded under the casting deck. We took a look at grinding it out....but it was as shiny as a new penny. It had been there for 41 years, entombed in glass and resin.
41 years from now, Good Lord willing, it will still be there.
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The only thing I would advise, is to cover the plywood with at least 12 oz. cloth to keep it from checking (fir WILL check on you down the road), and some abrasion/puncture resistance. If you do that inside and out you will be golden.
If you just hot coat the wood and it inevitably checks on you, you will get moisture intrusion. :ncool:
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I've got some 1208 hanging around i will lam it inside and out, should be pretty strong.
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That will do the trick! :)
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Pretty much the idea that goes with using wood in marine use is that it must be fully encapsulated from the elements to last. Once the fiberglass has a small breech water will soak the coring drop by drop. Also 1208 (as with 1708 and 2408) has the bulk of the weight in a weave which if in Single layer could actually end up more porous than doing multi layers with a lesser weight. Sure it's strong as heck but I don't think strength is the issue as those boxes look stout. If it were me I would think about a few layers at a lighter weight glass to ensure there is enough overlap of fibers and weaves to insure water tightness.
1208 is good stuff but does not like right angles. It doesn't bend well at sharp 90 degrees as most fiberglass doesn't. I see that you have rounded the vertical edges but my concern shifts to the upper and lower horizontal edges. Those may be really tough to get the glass to conform to especially in a heavy weight like 1208. You may have to go with multi layers of a lightweight chopped strand matt to get those covered properly, at least for maybe the first few coats until a slight rounding occurs.
In any event, what you are planning to do is possible but you will need careful glass work to skin them properly. That's part of the reason why so many guys on here resort to mold making as it produces a professional looking product that is well suited for the characteristics of fiberglass materials. Those pieces would come out awesome out of a mold. Sure it's more work up front to design and make the mold but it appears you have great wood working skills. A mold takes the hardest part out of the process which is manipulating the wet fiberglass. You do not have to be a good fiberglasser to fill a great mold. You can almost screw it up and still pop out a great piece from a good mold.
Just some food for thought. If your curious as to how to do what you are doing by mold, pm me and I'll clarify in greater depth.
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Good point Steve about the weave.... The kayak and other stich and glue builders are adamant about filling the weave. If one layer of glass is all that is going down then as soon as that layer is green (to keep the glass from floating) another layer of resin is squeegied down, followed by a third once the second layer is green. In Shores case the inside is going to be covered with foam so to speed up filling the layers he could get a bit of his favorite, non wicking filling agent and save a layer and a bit of weight.
If the surface is going to be bright finished then an extra coat for a total of 4 unthined coats has worked the best for me. As for pouring foam on wet glass, some destrctive tests (not the most scientific methods employed) showed me that wet on wet has no noticeable adhesion difference when put down on a properly prepared surface but makes a big mess.. If you go over epoxy and you did not get rid of the blush, nothing is going to stick to it other then the marshmallow fluff that your kid just spilled on it. :mrgreen: Otherwise the 2 part urethane foam will stick well.
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I'm going to have to stand my ground on this onnt ways to go about this, but he has the 1208...and the two points here are 1) keep the wood from checking (with the least amount of weight), 2) These boxes are to be sat on. They need to be as strong as the rest of the boat. Would you take a chance (on you boat) of having the seams cracking or worse, catastrophic failure because there isn't enough glass on the box to transfer to loads to the boat and away from the gaps where the panels meet in the core? This isn't a production environment. We can use superior materials to reduce weight, otherwise I would say bust out the chop gun and coat the hell ot of it.
As far as the weave goes... I apologize in advance, but that is ridiculous... You need to prime the wood anyway, and you need to fair everything after the fact. If you have voids in your weave because of a dry laminate, I'm thinking you are going to have worse problems than rotting wood down the road.
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I'm going to have to stand my ground on this onnt ways to go about this,
As far as the weave goes... I apologize in advance, but that is ridiculous... You need to prime the wood anyway, and you need to fair everything after the fact. If you have voids in your weave because of a dry laminate, I'm thinking you are going to have worse problems than rotting wood down the road.
1. This site is about advice, guidance, help and moral support. When advice or guidance is given in the past the poster has made certain that his/her guidance is of sound experience or researchable fact.
2. Take a look at CLC light-craft, ANY of the over 250 issues of WoodenBoat (been in circulation for over 20 years) and you will see the SAME info about filling the weave.
Admin Edited
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Dave, I'm thinking that you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Please re-read what I was saying. I agree that the weave will be filled, but I am saying that cautioning about it is the ridiculous part. It gets filled by virtue of finishing the part. Therefore If you have water penetration through the weave of your cloth after you are done with the lamination, you have a dry lamination, which means you have bigger problems than rotted core material down the road.
Admin Edited
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Alrighty brothers, gonna use my PR appointment here.
This place has never been THT, and never will. We pride ourselves on a club atmosphere.
In many instances, as we have seen, we have lively discussion....but never arguments.
I don't see this as anything more than discussion, maybe with a little cayenne :mrgreen:
Many valid points regarding methods...guess we can agree it got to this point mainly on the topic of radius adhesion.
Lets get back to that....thanks :wink:
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the beauty of this site is the sharing of ideas from many different walks and backgrounds. We post ideas and questions with the comfort that we will get a variation of responses both amateur and pro to help us get where we want to be. We also trust there will be checks and balances that if a suggestion is way off, the masses will correct it. I have a few years experiences in glass work and I let it be know often that I am a novice to avoid a blind leading the blind scenario. Alot of what I have done is first run. I share the similar experiences of many attempting activities beyond my experiences and reporting the good and bad from a novice perspective figuring many of us may hit the same learning curve bumps in the road. I then hope that those in the industry and the experienced will chime in and say well thats close... but this may be better. Fiberglass has a complex learing curve which is best learned through experience.
In the instance of the sharing of ideas i see on this post, everyone is right but from their own perspectives. I for one have seen newly poured foam ooze from the weave of my factory stringers on my 246CCP. I was surprised to think this was even possible as the layup process seems so rich and thick. I have also experienced that resin, although thick and sticky, is somewhat brittle when thin and not attached to fiberglass fibers. I can see how someone with alot of experience in a professional setting could find it incorrect to say that a single layer of fiberglass could be porous. However in a strictly amateur, home garage setting attempted a hand full of times it could be possible. Its a crossroads of mindsets, but its also a great opportunity to share how to get the desired end result. We are all friends here. I appreciate all and every suggestion. It is up to the individual to decide which of those suggestions works best for them, good, better or best. I encourage all of us to keep posting and sharing and remain confident in your suggestion regardless if there is conflict or if your idea is checked a bit agrssively. Id rather someone post and get checked then to not have them post at all. That will only lead to a weakening of diversity for the site. I have no ownership or stake in the site other than a deep respect for what it has given me. It is up to the reader to choose which way to go with the information, it is up to the posters to try their best to information to the best of their experience, wether great or not so great. at the end of the day we are all friends here and I thank you all, always!!!
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Well i think i will stick with the wood core on this one and forgo the mold. As far as the hard edges go i will be laying a filet into the corners where the stiffeners are to help that transition.
Filling the weave: can i just use cabosil thickened resin and squeegie it onto the surface once the lamination is getting tacky? Not so much a peanut butter consistency maybe closer to syrup on the horizontal surfaces.
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Well i think i will stick with the wood core on this one and forgo the mold. As far as the hard edges go i will be laying a filet into the corners where the stiffeners are to help that transition.
Filling the weave: can i just use cabosil thickened resin and squeegie it onto the surface once the lamination is getting tacky? Not so much a peanut butter consistency maybe closer to syrup on the horizontal surfaces.
Yes.. The idea is that once the glass is down and beginning to cure an unthickened layer is rolled and tipped on. You do not want to roll out on glass that can pull up, that is why you wait. Once the first fill layer goes on and gets to the green stage, you can roll and tip more on, either thickened or not, until you have the desired weave coverage you want. The amount of thickening agent you use depends on how greedy you want to be with the buildup, again the idea is to thicken up the resin to the point that it will stay where you put it..
Good luck
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Guys, I hope you're not waiting for me to settle anything. Here's my $.02
I see that due to the lack of info for the final finish of the boxes from the member doing the work we are all a little loose in where we are going with advise - seems Dave is (I think) thinking they will be wooden boxes that you can see the wood through? If so then his approach follows those steps for this.
Carl is thinking (I think) that it will be gelcoated and the wood will never be seen. If so, his approach follows those steps.
Wish I knew myself.
No big deal though - we're all in the same swim lane and have the same goal in mind - helping the member. No need to even bring up THT.
I too don't have but a few years of fiberglass experience but I have a whole lot of mental experience to figure out little things like this and that is how I handle my rebuild. If I don't know, I ask and also go to Google and Youtube. :thumright:
Nice thing about our site is that we have a lot of different members to ask advise from - from pros all the way down to people like me :mrgreen:
Back to the regularly scheduled program.
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My train of thought is to glass it all up add urethane foam to the interior, glass over that and then paint the whole thing. I have zero experience with gel coat and all I've ever heard is how temperamental it is.
Thoughts?
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My train of thought is to glass it all up add urethane foam to the interior, glass over that and then paint the whole thing. I have zero experience with gel coat and all I've ever heard is how temperamental it is.
Thoughts?
It's just like paint, except you mix it, and it sets up. For your application...mix it in a paint tray, and roll it on with a 3 inch roller. Just like the builders roll a bilge. You're looking serviceability/durability....paint can't match gelcoat in that regard.
Want to pretty it up? Fair it down with an orbital, roll it again....wet sand, compound, buff, and wax.
Gel doesn't have to be sprayed with a gun to get the job done.
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Shore, gel coat is just resin with additives...or at least that is the way to think about it. I would recommend (since you used vinylester) finish it with gel.
Someone on the forum nailed it down, paint means the work is prior to the finish. Gelcoat means the work is done after the finish is applied.
Good luck boss.
I edited to clarify... :cheers: :afro:
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/b6074669354c8c367ab19def502fe536_zps4828d58d.jpg)
Re cored the coffin lid
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/581b04c3827d0e72de922d1698980a04_zps584325a5.jpg)
Cut the hole in the top
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/57f5bff314cd3f79a176c6bdc94e95f1_zpsde4177c4.jpg)
Bottom edges filleted and 3 oz csm laid in bottom. 2" foam board is in also!
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/6890d60023bacee04df2befc457e5ae1_zps3fe538a1.jpg)
Coring glassed in with 1208
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/23f06f90b54e2d1801015ecd1cc5c9db_zps03627475.jpg)
All insulation installed in fish box
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/68293c5b45b8394ce4b7258798c9739f_zps8199cf0e.jpg)
Framing for door hatch cut, I will have to hot coat it and glue it in place then i will route it out and fit the door.
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Looking for motors while rebuilding. Would a 200 be too small? Should I be looking for a 250 at minimum?
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Looking for motors while rebuilding. Would a 200 be too small? Should I be looking for a 250 at minimum?
IMHO, a pair of 115s up to 140s would be outstanding! :thumleft: A single 250 would be a nice choice as well.
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I will be running a single 1990 Evinrude 225 on my 246 ccp. My buddy has a yamaha 225 on his 24ft Grady walk around and does almost 40 mph with no shortage of power and thrust when needed to get through the breakers at the mouth of the inlet. The Grady is very heavy especially compared to CCP's or family fishermans.
Twin 140's are a great option for safety if you go far out because if one motor craps out you have the other, however it takes up a lot of space at the transom. A 250 would be great, but if you are talking older evinrude/Johnson that means going from 6 cylinders to 8 which means more weight and we all know that hull doesn't like too much weight in the rear if you want your drains to work.
My opinion would be to go smaller twins (largest 4 cylinders...140's???) or the largest 6 cylinder (Evinrude 225). Twins are also heavier than a single so that may be a consideration as well.
Lastly I'm not sure where you are using your boat, but on south shore Long Island it is rare that you have a calm enough sea to to open the boat up full throttle anyway. We are usually bouncing along the swells at mid 20 mph regardless of horsepower.
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Im leaning towards an optimax 225 or a ox66 250
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those are both awesome motors. I am not familiar with the specifics of them but I know that usually with most brands a 200 is the same block as a 225 but with bigger injectors/carbs, thus the same weight. Im not sure if the 0x66 250 is the same block as the 200/225, but overall my point is get the largest horsepower without extra weight. If a Yamaha 200/225 is lighter than that 250 then I would lean towards the 200/225. That hull will only go so fast before its unstable. Its not a speedboat
When I had my 200CCP, I was refurbishing Evinrude/Johnson 150's and 225's to sell. I would mount my newest rebuild on the 200CCP to water test them. The boat ran awesome with a 150. It was almost scary with the power of the 225 and I couldn't stand at the transom without my feet getting wet from water coming in from the floor drains because of the extra weight of the motor. To each their own. People like different things and have different expectations and needs. I would love a 175 for the 246CCP but I feel that might be just a hair weak in the rough.
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The last guy had a 175 on my 222ccp. I replaced it with a 2003 225 optimax but had wished I had two 120-150 optimax's to run offshore with more piece of mind.
I would go with two motors if I had a chance to do it all over again.
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I never really had it in my head that i was gonna do twins. The cut out in the transom is for a single so i would have to fill it in and get a bracket, not sure thats gonna be cost efficient for me.
Off topic. I can't help but notice how floppy the sides of this boat are. I havent cut out anything but the back two feet of liner, including that massive splash well and the corresponding stringers under it. The transom is back in but have not reattached the stringers or liner to the new transom. Is this normal? Will it stiffen up or should i be laying some bulkheads in somewhere to stiffen it up?
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I can't help but notice how floppy the sides of this boat are. Is this normal?
Well "floppy" is a relative term. The Aquas I've owned had flex along the hull sides. How much flex is bad, I don't know. A mid tier boat, it isn't going to be as stiff as a higher end hull. These craft are known for being rather light for their length allowing lower HP to propel them. Sounds like a typical Aqua hull to me but I'm not pushing on it either so.....
Not a real comparison but just a weak example, your hull is listed at 2550 lbs. (probably dry) while a 23 Contender is listed at 4200 lbs. dry weight.
I'm thinking you're fine.
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Fair enough. I have also been thinking about adding bulkheads between the stringers when removing the floor. As far as I can see there are no bulkheads fore or aft of the fuel tank coffins. Will this cause stress points or anything else? Seems to be common practice around here to add them in.
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Well, we haven't seen a lot of negative comments from those who do, assuming they're still around to post them :o .
Again, why not? Might make it a little quieter when you're hunting ducks. :idea:
Good luck.
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While you're in there, why not. It would give the deck more support too.
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(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/a247818fd587c29919b3edfa4a282ec1_zpsc7a4b752.jpg)
Fishbox done. Top,bottom and sides all insulated with 2" foam and glassed in
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/00e328683d603175d6ce45832bbf13a0_zps4f02de74.jpg)
(http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/4shore44/4b4f6c5637f484d01c3e5044249ac1ed_zps4b0b581f.jpg)
Spray foam is just there to help round out the corners. The low spot is where the pedestal seat goes and its backed with 3/4" ply
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How much you figure it/they weigh? Bet they look heavier than they are. :salut:
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30-50 is my guess. I can weigh it next time im working on it
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This rebuild still happening? I wanted to make seat boxes for a long time. Also need to recore fuel hatch.
Would be nice to see finished job.
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4shore hasn't been active on the Forum in well over a year (17 months).
:c023:
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Hey guys. Been a while....
I still have this boat and actually have a second of the same model that has a hard top and an older optimax.
Long story short I have switched teams and am at the tail end of a seacraft restoration. On top of that I’m building a house and moving soon. I want these boat to go to someone who will finish up the project.
I’m willing to let the whole package go CHEAP! Please text me at 443-735-7062 as I don’t check this site frequently.
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Disregard.....sold.