Livewell Question on Explorer 225 - UPDATE -Drains

[brian]

I recently purchased a 1994 explorer 225 and have a couple questions about the stern livewell.  It has a standpipe which when removed drains the well as expected via the through hull and when in place allows it to fill to the top and overflow any excess.  It also seems to have a second drain hole in the bottom of the well next to the fill port also on the bottom of the well.  What I don't understand is why there would be a second drain (in addition to where the standpipe goes in).  I see another hose coming in from the top of the well that I believe is for recirculating water.  I thought it would have been connected to the drain near the fill port, but it doesn't appear to be.  When filling the well with water it is draining out the other drain in the floor of the well so I have bought a plug to close that port since there wasn't one in the boat.  

Is this livewell missing hose from that drain port that should connect to a recirculating pump or was this designed with a 2nd drain port in the bottom of the livewell.  It sounds like it is draining to the bottom of the hull when a plug is not in it and the bilge then pumps the water out which is not how I would have expected it to be designed.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Brian

[Bergertime]

Brian,

Sounds like some modifications were done by the PO (Prior Owner) on your boat.  My 98 Osprey (very similar to Explorer) drains through the stand-pipe hole when it's removed through a through-hull on the starboard side at the transom.  My fill port is located at the bottom of the well about 3-4 inches away from stand-pipe.  Anything else sounds like custom work.  Now I will tell you that because of the lip for the stand-pipe fitting most wells never really totally drain so the PO on your boat may have added a drain at the bottom to facilitate getting the last little bit of water out of there.  As for the hose at the top, I have no idea and again seems like custom work.  I'd trace that hose and see where it leads you... He may have put in a dedicated live-well pump and relegated the dual service pump just for washdown.. assuming you have a t-valve diverter that will direct water to the live-well or wash-down port.

Its worthy to note many of us Osprey/Explorer owners have done a similar modification to the aft fishbox since the OEM drain (connected to a pump or not) will not allow full drainage of the box.  If you do some searching on here you can see several posts on the ubiquitous "Fish Box Modification".    

Hope this helps... post some pics if you have more ?s..  They are very helpful.

B

[wingtime]

I agree it sounds like a PO mod to me.  My 245 Explorer is set up the same as Berertime's Osprey.  I'd bet a PO had rigged up a circulating pump at one time.  I have no idea why they would do that though.     Then again I've seen some POs do some REALLY stupid things.

[Capt. Bob]

 Then again I've seen some POs do some REALLY stupid things.

Was it wire nuts or was that someone else?

[Bergertime]

OMG Bob.. you must have been talking about my PO and wire nuts down in the bilge within the bilge pump harness... I almost break out into hives every time I think about some of the W#$#$%#$%@$#% electrical work I have found on my sled..

B

[brian]

Thanks guys, I was really struggling to understand why they would have 2 drains and one that seemed to dump into the hull to be pumped out by the bilge.  I will take some pictures of it and add it to this thread so you can see what I'm referring too.

[brian]

Well I was back on the boat this weekend dong some work on it Saturday morning and have some pictures to show what I'm referring too.  I do believe this setup was from the factory though, perhaps an option that was available.  All of the connections in the bottom of the well look the same and on the consul at the helm the toggle for the baitwell has a recirculate and fill option on each side of the toggle switch and this is all factory original. Here are pictures of the well:

I placed the plug into the port that intakes water to recirculate


This is what should dump the water back in when recirculating


This is the recirculate pump in the center


After plugging the recirculate intake I began filling the well.  It got a little wet on the underside of the connection so I believe it is no longer sealed well.  I then noticed that I could hear water dripping into the bilge at a rapid rate.  While feeling around for the source I indentified it as the stand pipe fitting.  It is loose and I could easily move it around. So looks like I probably need to disconnect all these bottom fittings an remount them.  I suspect they all had foam rubber type gaskets like you would have on a tiolet that has broken down over time.  As you guys know, getting in there to work is a nightmare.  Thinking I'm going to need to cut a hole in the fish box to create an access port.  Can you tell me if that back wall of the fish box has any wood in it?  I just don't want to cut anything that will allow moisture to get to the wood core on the deck.

This leak has led to another problem to fix.  When I bought the boat the float switch for the bilge was not working.  The dealer replaced it, but simply added a second one that is 10 inches up the side of the hull not sitting in the bottom.  This resulted in it never pumping all the water out from the livewell leak.  While out Sunday I turned on the bilge while the bow was pitched high to get the water out.  I got distracted and it was left on for 30 - 45 min.  When at the dock I tried to turn it on and it is not starting, guessing I blew a fuse as I don't think bilge pumps burn up when run dry like an outboard impeller.  So now I need to figure out where the fuse is to check it first and when that hull is dry move that float switch down.

Appreciate any advice you guys could share to make this easier.

Bri

[Bergertime]

A couple things...

The backside of my fishbox had no wood... just straight glass with foam insulation.  This mod is a real time saver and makes getting access to down there much easier.  As for the float switch... I concur and would def move it.  If it's a backup then it would be ok but the primary should be at the lowest point back there... In it's current configuration you would likely take on a lot of water b/f the float kicked in.. might be dangerous.

As for the livewell, I have never seen that setup but I am still a newbie when it comes different model AS.  I am not sure why you would want a re-circulation vs. just pumping in fresh raw water unless you were transporting bait in your livewell on a trailer. Maybe I need an education on what the purpose of that is..  Your stand pipe looks different than mine.. My pipe has a large rubber end that seals when pushed in at the top of the drain.  They are easily found at West Marine or most marine supply stores. Are you sure that is the right setup there?  Here is mine: http://www.westmarine.com/t-h-marine/t- ... P010126613


Pumps do go bad.. I had to replace my Rule when I purchased my boat from a P.O.  Yours could have sat for a long time down there not being used and sucked up something in your bilge when you were running it.  

Bob is the expert here but I guess I would approach it in this order:

1) Make sure one or all your batteries are on
2) Check condition of the breaker at helm.  Little nipple below or above the switch is the breaker, did it trip?  Reset by pushing - retest pump.
3) Try to activate your bilge by manually actuating the new float switch?  There is a little lever on the side if the float in enclosed or just lift the float if not. This will rule out a bad pump vs. electrical issue from the helm.  If pump does not work via helm or float then you might have a bad pump.  Confirm 12v delivery there (float leg and switch leg) and if you are getting power, the pump is bad
4) If you can confirm the pump is not bad by manually actuating the float switch then I would check to see if you are getting 12v at the back of the panel switch to the wire that goes to the pump to confirm its not your switch.  Power here but not at the pump could indicated a wire or inline fuse issue.  Check for both.  

-That should get you started.

Post any ?s you may have.. good luck.

B

[brian]

Went to e boat to do some more diagnostics.

The bilge will turn on when I lift the float switch.  When I use the manual toggle switch on the dash it will not turn on.  The dash breaker did not kick out and I checked the fuse box by the battery and none of the fuses have blown.  I tried to follow the wires to see if there were any inline fuses, but I couldn't see any.

I  also tried to pull out the bilge to look it over good, but it seems mounted quite firm.  I couldn't see any screws holding it, but it wasn't releasing easily.  I didn't want to force it and break something else, not sure if you guys know how these are normally attached to the floor.

I then turned my attention to the live well, I can feel where the fitting is a little warped and would allow water to pass by.  I removed the hose clamp, but the hose seems sealed on with some sealant as it wouldn't let go.  As a result I didn't get the fitting out.  Now I am torn between doing something drastic to cut it out and replace it or just seal it up on the inside of the live well with some 5200.  Not sure how easy the right fitting will be to find to replace it if I try to cut it out.

[Capt. Bob]

Depending on the model,  most have two tabs opposite each other that when depressed allows the pump to be lifted out.The tabs are low on the bottom strainer.
Usually the strainer is mounted to the hull bottom with screws. Look closely for the tabs or feel for them with your fingers.

Good luck.

[Bergertime]

If you can loosen the backing enough to get it to lift up from inside the well I would just use a good amount of 5200 to seal and re-tighten. That said, even if you can't lift it a thick bead of 5200 around the edged would likely take care of the leak.  Have you cut the hatch yet in the back of the fishbox?  I know that on my boat it helps tremendously when gaining access to the bottom of the livewell.

Bilge:

Ok- Sounds like it's not a bad pump. So I would focus on the switch and wiring.

1) Turn the bilge switch on at the helm (confirm your batts are on   )
2) Use a volt meter and test the output leg on the back of the switch to make sure you are getting 12v.  This is where the wire is connected that runs back to the pump so make note of the color back at the pump and find it at the switch. <<Let us know if you need further instructions on how to accomplish this.>>  

If you are not getting 12v behind the switch but your panel is energized and your batteries are on then I would focus my attention to the switch.  You could easily use another switch to test by removing the existing wire and slide on the one from the bilge pump. If the pump turns on, problem found. If however you get the same result (pump not turning on) which is likely then continue below.    

So:
Assuming the switch is putting out 12v as designed (likely) I would go buy some good marine grade wire and run a jumper (over the deck of your boat) from the back of the correct switch and patch into the existing pump harness in the bilge at the same place the old wire connects.  See if it runs, make sure your switch is on and battery power is on.  Since this is a temporary test use wire nuts for you test connections until you are ready to make the final connections, then use the appropriate heat shrink connectors.  You COULD also run the same jumper directly from your battery with the same effect but that would not exercise the switch and breaker which I would want to do to ensure both working properly.

If your pump jumps to life then you know you have a wire issue and you will need to run a new wire to the pump.  I just  encountered this very recently actually.  I put in a Jabsco macerator pump (Brand new) to drain my fish box.   After I had used it several times prior and when I just got home from fishing I was using it to drain approx 10 gallons out..  After I turned it on it ran for about 1 minute it started to run down and just stop, kinda like the battery died.  Now, I have two new Group 25 Deep cycles so I know it was not a battery issue.  After testing many of the same items I determined the wire went bad.. Not sure why but it was not getting 12v back at the connection to the pump.  Ran a new power wire to the pump from the helm and now it works perfectly.  You may have the same issue.  Its worthy to note that I have also encountered this another time (prior) and with the very same wire (bilge pump) that I resolved when I cut it back by about a foot or so.. You may want to trim back the wire down there as much as you can and then test/try before running a permanent replacement.  Sometimes you will find black corrosion on the copper inside the wire which I know impacts performance.  

If you run a jumper from the switch and/or battery and the pump still does not work then we need to look at grounds and the harness.  Post your findings..  Good luck!

Seabob - Any additional guidance, your certainly the expert here  

B

[seabob4]

Bruce, you're doing just fine...

But I will add a bit.  Brian, if you pull down your gauge panel and switch panel, you'll see that your hull harness has 3 plugs...the old dreaded big blue connector, a ground plug that has all black wires in it, and what I call the "positives" plug.  The positives plug has all the positive leads that run to the various pieces of equipment on your boat.  There is a good possibility you are losing contact in the bilge pump circuit in that plug.

If your comfy using a meter or test light, trace the lead coming off the bilge pump switch to that plug, it will be brown, perhaps with a colored stripe.  Turn on the bilge pump switch and check for voltage on that wire on the panel side of the plug.  If there is no voltage, than you need to go backwards to the switch, see if there is voltage on the bottom terminal with the switch on.  If no voltage there, then check for voltage on the breaker that powers/protects that switch.

If you DO have voltage in the plug on the panel side, check for voltage on the same wire on the "boat" side of the plug.  If you don't have voltage, that says there is heavy corrosion (very common) on the pins and sockets in the plugs.  However, if you do have voltage, than the problem is in the wire between the plug and the pump.

Easy, huh?

[brian]

Wow, can't thank you guys enough for all the detailed advice, I really appreciate you taking time out to help steer me in the right direction.  I will pull the panel down and begin testing the connections to see if I can narrow this down.  That fact that it worked one moment then not the other had me thinking fuse all the way, but it sounds like that may not really be the case.

While I have the dash open, should I be replacing this blue connector with something?  Sounds like it is a problem waiting to happen.

Bruce with regard to the access in the fishbox, I have not cut it in.  I know it would make access easier, especially to the live well connections.  I'm hesitant though because the fish box does tend to collect a lot of rain water.  If I put an access panel in it the rain water will seep into the bilge.  As long as the bilge is working correctly not an issue, but if it fails I could begin to have a problem.  After all the damage we had here to boats following hurricane Irene and Sandy, I just don't want to take any chances.  I'm also blessed with a 6'2" frame and have some long arms.  So far I have been able to reach everything so I figure I will leave cutting the hole as a last resort if I can't resolve these two issues.

Thanks again for all the advice, I really appreciate it.

[wingtime]

I'd also look for the white disconnect plug where the bilge pump/float switch plug into the boats harness.  That is also a common place for corrosion.

[brian]

Well I managed to get these issues somewhat fixed this weekend.  As for the livewell, all of those bottom fittings were loose.  I ended up replacing all three with new 90 degree through hull fittings.  I thought I could re-seat and tighten the smaller ones but they broke easily while disconnecting them.  I noticed that recirculate pump is open on top as seen in the picture above with water in that open bowl.  I'm not familiar with these pumps, but suspecting it is broken and will need to be replaced.  I'm just plugging the intake for it and will worry about that in the off-season as I really don't need it.

I was able to remove the old float switch and I relocated the new one to the bottom of the hull where the old one was.  I also mixed up some raka marine grade epoxy that I had and filled and covered the small screw hole where they had mounted it.  It was screwed to the block by the sea cock and I want to make sure that water doesn't get in there and work on it in the event there is any wood in there.

I then went to focus my attention on the manual switch for the aft bilge. After doing all this work it is working again!  So I'm sure i have a bad wire/corrosion somewhere in the circuit.  I pulled the panel down and everything looked clean and tight, but I will need to wait for it to act up again so I can trace that issue and put a permanent fix in place.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and guidance.